GUILTY OR - Whitney Heichel, 21, Gresham, 16 Oct 2012 #5

[PoirotryInMotion]

<snipped>
One thing I can't square is the evidence that seems to suggest Whitney was in the passenger seat when shot, and Holt's confession that he pulled the gun on her five minutes into the abduction. IMO he would have had better control of her if he only had to focus on keeping the gun on her while she drove, rather than him driving AND holding the gun on her. But how/when did they ended up exchanging seats?

Good observation, La Louve...I wonder, too.

 

[Xavier]

:waitasec: We really can't know the actual sequence of events until we know whether Whitney was visible in the car at the Shell station. What I'm finding so confusing is that JH would've had to return to Stark St. from Dodge Park to get to Larch Mt. The trip to from the Shell station to Dodge Park, to Larch Mt. and, finally, to the Wood Village Wal-mart takes about 2 hours 20 minutes. JH would've had to fly along those roads to arrive at Wal-mart by 11:17 -- approximately 2 hours after fueling up the car. And that doesn't take into consideration additional time for all that happened at Dodge Park and Larch Mt. And, I doubt that someone who had just committed a horrendous crime would risk getting pulled over by LE for speeding.

Why does LE seem so certain that WH was killed at Dodge Park? Is it because that's where her bloody apron and sweater were found? I wonder if there was also blood on the ground or spent casings at Dodge Park.
I'm thinking that, if Whitney was already deceased when her SUV was seen at the Shell station, maybe she was killed and left on Larch Mt. and JH then drove to Dodge Park after putting more fuel in the vehicle to toss out some of the evidence. Maybe he was in such a hurry that he forgot to toss all of the evidence and so strewed the remainder on his way to Wal-mart.

If Whitney was killed in Dodge Park before the SUV was fueled up at Shell, I find it hard to believe that JH would've propped her body in the passenger seat where she could be easily seen through the broken window on the passenger side and through the open window on the driver's side (when JH communicated with the station attendant). She would've had some very noticeable wounds. Her body would also get jostled around a lot, especially if JH was speeding en route. If WH was deceased at that point, wouldn't JH attempt to conceal her body in the back? Or, even more likely, wouldn't he have left her body at Dodge Park? I'm inclined to think WH was already deceased by 9:00 a.m. and wasn't in the vehicle at Shell.

I hope I'm clear enough. I'm extremely tired. Here is the map showing the route from Shell to Dodge Park to Larch Mt. to Wal-mart:

http://goo.gl/maps/T24Rp

ETA: After re-reading your post, Desdemona, I realized that JH couldn't have gone to Larch Mt. prior to making a fuel stop because the license plate was found on Larch Mt., and it was on the vehicle at the Shell station. Nothing seems to add up if JH did this alone. Or, he made a second trip to Larch Mt. after the fuel stop maybe?

Good points. Maybe Holt stopped at Dodge Park to have sex in the secluded, grassy fields, the SUV was tight, cumbsersome. So he gets out of SUV, WH terrified, locks the doors. Holt's angry, fires one or two warning shots. WH then unlocks car doors sensing Holt's really serious. 2 bullet casings are now on the street or grass roadway area. Holt gets in SUV, angry, frustrated, maybe WH puts up a struggle, and then he shoots her 4 times, since she won't comply to sex. All 4 bullet casings end up on Holt's driver side floor. The 2 bullets in the Dodge Park area, coupled with WH's bloody clothes makes LE assume this is where she was killed. One bullet passes through WH's face/head and exits, shattering the window. Glass with blood on it are also found at Dodge Park by LE.

Holt then dumps off some of the sweater(bloody), apron, etc on the roadside area. Holt drags WH over the front seat into the back seat area, covers her with the linens, then maybe drives to get gas because maybe had not enough fuel for a long drive to Larch Mtn....Once at the mountain, he wraps WH in the linen, then uses it to drag, carry her to her final rest at the tree/rock....Holt dumps off more evidence, leaves, then goes back to cover his tracks and any evidence...Hikers on the mountain see a woman curled up near a tree....Holt goes back to the mountain and moves WH somewhere else more hidden... The hikers tip off LE, searchers on their finding of a woman..LE goes to that place the body is gone, but they find WH on the mountain elsewhere... .Any thoughts?

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

Originally Posted by Desdemona View Post
Sorry to sound like a broken record:

So now do we know for sure that Whitney was indeed shot twice in the head and twice in the chest? I've still not seen that anywhere but here. TIA

BBM

I was wondering the same thing.

I read it in at least one, maybe two earlier articles and I believe Xavier said he did, too. But I spent about 20-30 minutes searching for it using key words that wouldn't appear in the later articles (heichel shot four times chest torso) and on advanced search (Bing) I got: "Some results have been removed." I specifically remembered those four places where she'd been shot--but I removed face and head as key words in the search, as using them came up with too many "will face charges" and other irrelevant search results (using other meanings for head and face).

It appears that earlier articles mentioning this have been taken down and from the ME office and LE standpoint, I think that's all they want to say at this point.

So, do we know "for sure"? Not from the ME or LE. We heard it in the media, but they're not error-proof. I lean towards thinking (because I read it once or twice at the outset) that it's quite possibly true, but if so, LE doesn't want that publicized right now, and had those articles pulled.

 

[iamnotagolem]

<modsnipped>

My heart goes out to all of the victims in this case...Whitney, Clint,, Amanda and their friends and families and yes even the Judd's who most likely saw things that day that will give them nightmares for years to come, I can't even imagine looking for my friend and finding her bloodied SUV and then inadvertently picking up her killer.

<modsnipped>

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

Good points..but ALL 4 fired bullet casings were found inside the front seat area according to LE. And firing a gun inside the SUV instead of outside the SUV the sounds would've been muffled..so it'd be harder to hear the gunfire from passersby...If Holt shot WH outside the SUV point blank into the window, the casing would've been left on the street pavement...

Yeah...I was first thinking that the shot was fired from inside the car. But I've since been considering that perhaps Whitney outsmarted her assailant for a bit, and locked him out. Because it's extremely difficult to break a car window. (I bought special tools for this for family cars one year for Christmas gifts after reading how hard it'd be if trapped in a vehicle.)

I then started thinking, well, a bullet could start the break-web that forms in safety glass, and then the window could be punched out. Here's a thought about the bullet casings...say the gun was pressed up against the glass of the window, then fired. Gun experts out there--any chance that casing would end up inside the car??

 

[nikb]

<snipped for space, and BBM>
My heart goes out to all of the victims in this case...Whitney, Clint,, Amanda and their friends and families and yes even the Judd's who most likely saw things that day that will give them nightmares for years to come, I can't even imagine looking for my friend and finding her bloodied SUV and then inadvertently picking up her killer. <snipped>

On the BBM part I so agree with you. Every time new details come out I'm more and more upset about what her friends might've witnessed that day. Of course I'm the most upset about the fact that Whitney's gone and it seems not at all peacefully.

For those left behind though I just can't imagine the amount of trauma they went through and will probably go through for a long time.

 

[IHAVENOCLUE]

Okay. I just read the police docs.

Just when you think things can't get worse... they do...

Did/does Holt really have child *advertiser censored* on his computers?

Or was he using this as a cover for other, just as heinous, things that he has on them?

Sorry to jump in....

But my theories never went in THAT direction!

Sorry if it has been covered before in these threads...

I admit I got behind...

Just Yes/No, or a reference to a post or article will be sufficient!

TIA

:cupcake: :cake4u: :coffeecup: :coffeeup:

Treats for all of you who don't throw virtual tomatoes at me!

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

I would imagine the rear seats were in the upright position initially when she left her apartment. There is considerably more space in between the front seats and the rear seats were the rear passengers feet would go when the seats are in the upright position. This space would of course vary depending on how far forward or back the front seats where positioned.

Do I think the head of a women that is only 5'2" (correct me if I'm wrong) would reach the rear seats if she was slumped between the front seats. NO.

JMO

This was her car, and she was a short woman; it'd be interesting to note how far forward the driver's seat was at the time the car was found. (I'm betting LE did note this.)

 

[nikb]

My responses are in bold below... take them for what they're worth, just my opinion and speculation.

Okay. I just read the police docs. I'm assuming you also meant this one, maybe among others? http://media.oregonlive.com/gresham_impact/other/holtpc.pdf. A ton of the answers in it but it's disturbing to read.

Just when you think things can't get worse... they do... I know.

Did/does Holt really have child *advertiser censored* on his computers? I've seen nothing other than the articles and police docs posted here so I don't know of course. Speculation and my first thought was that he invented the "robbery" to explain why he was so shaken up, and he brought up the child *advertiser censored* because he thought if he fessed up to something else, maybe LE would assume he was being truthful about what happened to Whitney? My other thought is that she's fairly young and pretty small so maybe - it's a stretch - she was "kid-like" enough for him if he was into child *advertiser censored*.

Or was he using this as a cover for other, just as heinous, things that he has on them? That's what I think at this point. Subject to change any minute though.
Sorry to jump in....

But my theories never went in THAT direction! Same here! I was pretty shocked when the police docs came out, at a number of different things.

<snipped for space>

Treats for all of you who don't throw virtual tomatoes at me! ha thank you for the smile. Yeah, none of us ever get behind and need a hand catching up right?

ETA: ew sorry the formatting came out really funky. I hope it makes sense. If not please let me know and I'll figure out a way to post it differently.

 

[MidwestMama]

re: how many gunshot wounds?

Meghan Kalkstein &#8207;@KATUMeghan Dox: Whitney died of 4 gun shot wounds. OSP crime lab had Holt's DNA from Whitney's steering wheel #findwhitney #ripwhitney
(10-22)

Probable cause paperwork shows 4 gunshot wounds http://images.bimedia.net/documents/Holt+PC+doc.pdf

 

[nikb]

Warning: graphic, skip if you want.

Random weird thoughts just came to me. If she was on the floor in the front, on either side, and the SUV was parked at an angle or on a steep hill (or, say, driving up a mountain), would blood flow to where it was found pooled up as described in the affidavit?

Also... if she were shot from behind or the side, could the casings possibly hit either a window or a metal part of the SUV and bounce back inside? I'm assuming a gunshot would break a window with a direct hit, but at an angle it might glance off? Especially the windshield?

Not even speculating really, just wondering.

 

[Stash777]

This was her car, and she was a short woman; it'd be interesting to note how far forward the driver's seat was at the time the car was found. (I'm betting LE did note this.)

Respectfully, I really don't see this as being a point of note because JH was driving the SUV after he had already disposed of WH. My husband always adjusts the seat position even if he is just moving my car. My point is that the seat would have been moved back to accommodate his height well after WH was already out of the SUV. I don't think the seat position would help to determine who had started driving; it would only help narrow down who was driving last.

I apologize if I misinterpreted your post.

 

[Stash777]

Warning: graphic, skip if you want.

Random weird thoughts just came to me. If she was on the floor in the front, on either side, and the SUV was parked at an angle or on a steep hill (or, say, driving up a mountain), would blood flow to where it was found pooled up as described in the affidavit?

Also... if she were shot from behind or the side, could the casings possibly hit either a window or a metal part of the SUV and bounce back inside? I'm assuming a gunshot would break a window with a direct hit, but at an angle it might glance off? Especially the windshield?

Not even speculating really, just wondering.

Definitely not something that even crossed my mind, but I was always horrible with physics! This does make sense to me, though. I was thinking more of the way liquids pool (without regard to the angle the "container" is positioned - in this case, container is the SUV - I don't mean this to come off as insensitive; I'm speaking in terms of mechanics). Maybe a way off example, but my dog (who I love so much) ALWAYS pees in the house if it's raining or wet outside and I am amazed by the puddles she makes on such a flat surface. They go well beyond where it originated, sometimes seemingly to defy anything I know about the sort. Based on your question, I'm thinking it wouldn't even have to be a noticeable incline.

 

[IHAVENOCLUE]

My responses are in bold below... take them for what they're worth, just my opinion and speculation.



ETA: ew sorry the formatting came out really funky. I hope it makes sense. If not please let me know and I'll figure out a way to post it differently.

Thanks, Nikb!

Your formatting is actually impressive!

and thanks for responding!

Yes.. I had read the doc you indicated above... But tonight I read the 40+ pages of docs... See this thread-page 2-#29. Lots of interesting info.... Yet frightening too.

but aI am impressed with the work do LE!

and... I was thinking possibly Holt regarded Whitney as child - like too? ..... Especially if it is true he is obsessed with child *advertiser censored*.

I wonder if more docs come out once more investigation/tests are completed...

Holt changed his story quite a few times...

it will probably take a while for all pieces of the puzzle to fit... If ever!

Please excuse my ipadisms! :smile:

 

[westsidefox64]

My opinion is that Whitney was shot and killed at the location where JH said he shot her, he then drove with Whitney's body in the rear seat area of the car to the gas station to get enough gas to drive to Larch Mountain where he disposed of her body, then drove to Walmart where he disposed of the items in the dumpster and parked the car.

I can't decide if she was in the front passenger seat when shot and then placed in the rear seat area afterwards where the majority of the blood was found. Or if he forced her into the rear seats where there would have been more room if he was planning on sexually assaulting her. The broken door glass and organic matter on the windshield suggest she was in the front passenger seat when shot. The other option would have been he folded down the seats making somewhat of a bed and then shot her there. I think he might of covered her body with the carpet and rubber mat from the rear part of the vehicle that was found on top of the lowered (folded down) rear seats when the vehicle was found at Walmart. Covering her with the mats combined with the tinted window is perhaps why she might not have been seen if her body was in the rear of the vehicle while at the gas station.

JH could have lowered the seats and placed the mats where they were found as a way to hide the blood on the rear seats also after Whitney was removed from the vehicle.

You can find reference to the rear carpet and rubber mat being found on top the "lowered" rear seats on page 23 of the affidavit pdf. http://media.oregonlive.com/gresham_impact/other/holt1.pdf


I took some pictures of the rear seat area of a similar 98 or 99 Ford Explorer at a local junk yard with the seat up and down for everyone to look at. (Sorry if I blew the margins)

A few things to note:

There is not enough room IMO to place a body on the floor in the rear seat area behind the front seats with the seats lowered or folded down. The rear seats hinge forward when folding them down almost up to the front seats. (you can see that in the last picture)

Another thing to note is that the levers to release the locks to lower the seats are on the sides of each seat and you almost have to open each rear door to access them. I was able to crawl across the seat to reach the lever on the opposite side, but if the seat was soaked in blood I might of gotten some on my pants in the knee area. Also if he was holding Whitney at gun point I doubt he could have folded down the seats by himself. She would have been able to make a break for it then. I guess it is possible he forced her to lower the seats while holding a gun on her.

GRAPHIC
Im going off this post for the sake of the pictures.

I personally think she was already in the back seat when the shooting took place with the seat in the lowered position for these reasons, If shes in the back (probley where the sexual assault took place) and hes behind her and towards the passenger side as hes shooting, the shell casings from the gun are going to fly out either to the right side or to the front of the gun, They arent going to come out of the gun toward the shooter. This would explain the casings, brain matter and the tooth being in the front from the impact of the shot. The blood splatter could be on the back of the drivers side seat as explained as droplets and it could have (thrown) a droplet of blood onto the seat belt (drivers side). It could also explain the window being hit by a bullet (if indeed thats how the window got broken which I dont believe has actually been said. It would also explain the hair on the head rest and when she fell backwards or to the side the blood pooling on the floor board from the shots to her head. it could also explain the blood on the rear seat. If after the shooting he laid her with her head towards the passenger side and her legs toward the drivers side and covered her up with the mats and the linens the gas station attendent wouldnt have seen her or any blood. I may be completely wrong but it makes sense to me. JMO

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

Respectfully, I really don't see this as being a point of note because JH was driving the SUV after he had already disposed of WH. My husband always adjusts the seat position even if he is just moving my car. My point is that the seat would have been moved back to accommodate his height well after WH was already out of the SUV. I don't think the seat position would help to determine who had started driving; it would only help narrow down who was driving last.

I apologize if I misinterpreted your post.

No apology needed--you're right! Thank you! Lol, I can see I need some shut-eye, now.

 

[Sasquatch]

Also... if she were shot from behind or the side, could the casings possibly hit either a window or a metal part of the SUV and bounce back inside? I'm assuming a gunshot would break a window with a direct hit, but at an angle it might glance off? Especially the windshield?

Not even speculating really, just wondering.

Page 37 of the Holt1.pdf document states that one of the weapons Holt got from the NW Armory was a Keltec 9mm. Here is a pretty good page with video and slow motion pics showing the ejection of the spent casings of this weapon. I would imagine that in a car they would be hitting the roof and bouncing off things behind him. This page shows spent shells going up and back over the shooters right shoulder. But like anything else of a round shape in a car, Once you start driving things roll around, and once you pick up a floor mat things roll under seats.
http://www.evidencetrail.net/3-the-shell-casing-and-the-body.html

If he used a S&W 9mm I have read they can eject to the right shoulder, or with a weaker spring to the forehead area. I do not have experience with these, but I believe different 9mms and different shell casings(aluminum or Brass) eject differently. Here is a link to one type of S&W 9mm cases ejecting at 11 second mark.
[video=youtube;d-ZU0X0ZobQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-ZU0X0ZobQ[/video]

 

[nikb]

Definitely not something that even crossed my mind, but I was always horrible with physics! This does make sense to me, though. I was thinking more of the way liquids pool (without regard to the angle the "container" is positioned - in this case, container is the SUV - I don't mean this to come off as insensitive; I'm speaking in terms of mechanics). Maybe a way off example, but my dog (who I love so much) ALWAYS pees in the house if it's raining or wet outside and I am amazed by the puddles she makes on such a flat surface. They go well beyond where it originated, sometimes seemingly to defy anything I know about the sort. Based on your question, I'm thinking it wouldn't even have to be a noticeable incline.

Speculation only:
I know, I'm with you on the physics. I'd love to be good at it, but I'm not so great at it either. It just makes sense to me it would be kind of weird.

I hesitated to even post my original one because it's so upsetting. I'm so with you on the dog, I can't even believe how much their pee spreads out! I would assume most fluid is the same way.

Please forgive the semi-OT for a minute. About a year ago I had a situation with a leak in my car where the rain water pooled up underneath the back floor mats. The car was on a slight incline in the driveway. The car smelled musty and the floor mats were damp but I suspected maybe a small leak. We only found the actual problem when I hit the brakes hard once and I heard what was basically a waterfall under the back seat onto the floor. The amount of water underneath was crazy, I kept wondering how my mats weren't soaked, barely even damp and I've wondered about Whitney's too. I don't even have an SUV, I can only imagine that an SUV probably has more (I HATE typing this) "capacity." My car took a very long time to dry out.

My husband's also a well respected mechanic locally (local to us, not Whitney that I know of, though it'd be less than a day's drive). Anyway my husband told me that most cars have "drain screws" they can take out to get rid of excess gathered water. I can't even imagine what nastiness he's spared me from.

He showed me a "drain screw" from my car, it's a very simple plastic screw looking thing. I was shocked at the amount of water, though. When I asked about it I got about an hour or two long explanation followed by "it's in the ASE training book and websites" which I can't re-cap because it's a paid thing. ASE=Automative Service Excellence, it's a certificate program for mechanics. Classes, program, and website are all paid and kinda expensive so I am trying to post just enough to be useful, but not a copyright risk. I did see the info about drain screws in hard copy print with my own eyes because I couldn't believe it at first, that there were drain holes in the bottom of my car just to drain fluid...

OMG what the techs must see at times?

My husband's not a WS verified expert and I doubt he would become one here, mostly because he wants me to go to bed earlier . I hope it's ok since I didn't post too many details.

 

[Xavier]

I think it's rather an unusual coincidence that the Judds:

found/reported the van,
picked him up near that Shell station
also live in Troutdale

They live (on 10th at Beaverdale) in close proximity to where the cell phone was dropped at the Troutdale apts; also near the Walmart and the gas station.

It's very suspicious how the Judds were right around all of the places where Holt was. Something fishy could be going on with a connection between Holt & Judds.

 

[Xavier]

GRAPHIC
Im going off this post for the sake of the pictures.

I personally think she was already in the back seat when the shooting took place with the seat in the lowered position for these reasons, If shes in the back (probley where the sexual assault took place) and hes behind her and towards the passenger side as hes shooting, the shell casings from the gun are going to fly out either to the right side or to the front of the gun, They arent going to come out of the gun toward the shooter. This would explain the casings, brain matter and the tooth being in the front from the impact of the shot. The blood splatter could be on the back of the drivers side seat as explained as droplets and it could have (thrown) a droplet of blood onto the seat belt (drivers side). It could also explain the window being hit by a bullet (if indeed thats how the window got broken which I dont believe has actually been said. It would also explain the hair on the head rest and when she fell backwards or to the side the blood pooling on the floor board from the shots to her head. it could also explain the blood on the rear seat. If after the shooting he laid her with her head towards the passenger side and her legs toward the drivers side and covered her up with the mats and the linens the gas station attendent wouldnt have seen her or any blood. I may be completely wrong but it makes sense to me. JMO

Good post.... LE hasnt said what side of Whitney's body the impact bullet wounds occured on, left or right side. This would answer alot of questions where and how the shooting took place.