GUILTY OR - Whitney Heichel, 21, Gresham, 16 Oct 2012 #5

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BBM

While I don't necessarily feel he planned this for months either, I do feel it's possible he fantasized about it for months prior. In his mind, I can see his fantasy playing out in a much different way then how reality actually did. I can see this agitating him every step of the way and things escalating and getting completely out of control; JH getting angry, at both himself and at Whitney, the fact that he shot her four times when the first shot probably would've sufficed, and his disorganized cleanup after it was all said and done.

I respectfully disagree with you on this last point BBM. I feel his abduction of Whitney was fueled by his fantasy and obsessions of her specifically, and his wife wouldn't help feed that. IMO, it probably would have the opposite effect on him and only remind him of what he couldn't have and he wouldn't be interested in going there anymore than he had to.

All JMO, of course.

KODI--- Why would Holt want to kill his "fantasy girl"? It's been my impression, Holt & WH were friends, maybe close acquantances.

Why would Holt want to all of a sudden get rid of someone who made his life "interesting" so to speak. If WH consumed his thoughts, maybe of future possibilities of being together, WHY would he want to harm her or rid her out of his life?

As a guy, I'd want to always see my "fantasy girl" around as much as possible. Especially, if my life was a "downer" if she gave my life a much needed "boost" simply by seeing her.

So what made Holt change his perception of WH? What made Holt go from romanticizing sexually and all other things about WH to hating her to a point of killing her?

Did WH say something to Holt at one time to "get his act together" to salvage his marriage? Did something she said change his perception of her?
Maybe Holt told WH about his marital problems or insecurities and maybe WH told him directly and without much sympathy he needed to "man up " more often. And maybe these comments hurt his pride and turned his perception of WH to disgust, thus making WH less of dreamy fantasy girl and more like his wife (not to be taken as a bad comment about women) and maybe Holt was resenting his wife.

Just my thoughts....
 
Glad you had a nice Thanksgiving with your family PIM. I am currently ODing on left over turkey sandwiches (my fav part of the whole thing)

so, I read your latest post and had a couple more thoughts...

I was aware of it; some posters had been offering comments regarding whether or not JH might fit the profile of an anger-retaliatory rapist. I don’t believe people are as easily ‘categorized’ as you do. I do believe people are inherently inclined to try to categorize others; others actively try to avoid doing that, knowing that surface knowledge, over-generalization, and faulty assumptions lead to error.

I also read the comments by other posters about wether JH might fit the definition of an anger-retaliatory rapist. The thought was put out and we read it and the ones who wanted to, commented on it. I saw that as thought provoking information being added to the general conversational data base on this thread. When I think of "profiling" I think of "going deep" into the most minute nuances of a person. Motivations, habits, living area, type of kill, methods etc... so I guess we have different definitions of that word profiling. I am not an expert and would have to say mine comes mostly from reading about crimes in the past and watching them portrayed on television. As far as not believing that people are easily categorized, I can see why you would not want to believe that. I am resistant to wanting to believe that also. I think we all are. We all want to think we are unique and possessed of intelligence and talents and abilities. All of that is true of each of us as well as the fact that we still fall inside general lines of identity. Here is an example: Redheads are becoming more rare in our species. As they become more rare, they trigger a biological trip switch in the mind making them "desirable" (rare being desirable) it is also scientifically documented that red haired, fair skinned people have lower pain thresholds and may need more pain medication during a medical procedure to achieve the same level of pain relief as a non red head counterpart. So what we have here is a genetic uniqueness that can be categorized! Categorizing isnt an insult to our uniqueness anymore than most people liking chocolate is. It just is. It is also a way we learn and move forward in the world. Not one person who is in the medical field be it working with the body or the mind, could have gotten through their training if the textbooks educating them didnt contain all the categorizing necessary to break down the normal from the abnormal.

Yes, though it would be faulty logic, of course, to assume that since he was known as a quiet, nice guy, he must therefore be a serial killer in the making. That would be an exaggerated example of how categorizing can cause problems when combined with faulty logic.

Yes, I agree! If anyone did that it would be faulty. However no one did, so no where else to go with this I guess.



But if you’ll read that whole paragraph, what I’m illustrating is someone who was NOT just anxious about finances.

What makes you assume I didnt read the whole paragraph? Just injecting a note of humor ..:blushing:

I did read all of what you wrote and I dont have a problem with your using "tentative' as a description of certain aspects of his life. I was pointing out actions that might not be so tentative, stealing the phone from Clint's dresser, popping up beside Whitney's vehicle that fateful morning and asking for a ride, and lets not forget, murdering a person. Taking another's life is the ultimate non tentative action I would think. I just took a moment to look up Antonyms of the word tentative. I used the Merriam Webster dictionary. Here were the first 3 listed: Near Antonyms: absolute, all-out, arrant. Those words sound like they fit perfectly with what JH did in Whitney's vehicle up at the lake. I dont see why he couldn't have some areas where he displayed tentative behavior without that being the total sum of him. I was presenting the other side. The NON tentative actions he took.


Kids who are bullied as children are those with the more quiet and passive nature;

Is that making a categorization? Do you have a link that can show that is so? I have read that bullies can raise bullies. Many children who are abused grow up to abuse (abuse being a form of bullying) It is also true that some people who are bullied dont grow up to bully just as some abused children grow up to be kind loving parents who abhor violence of any kind.

{partial quote}...drive around a victim’s hometown area using her ATM card at multiple stops, drop her body and selective evidence around the area, and abandon the crime scene car at a 24-hr Walmart without getting caught on surveillance tape. The cold-blooded hit AND the actions afterward indicate ‘pro’ to me, in other words.


Well any pro killer who is going to do all of that needs to hang his head in shame. I would hope a pro would be quick in and quick out, leaving nary a ripple in the water so to speak instead of leaving the car so messy, scattering evidence willy-nilly all over town, not knowing how much gas they need, letting themselves get caught on camera at the gas station and so on (and on). Not to mention, if there was a pro, then that is a whole nother discussion. A pro would have to be hired. That would mean others are involved, not just JH. I love conspiracy theories just as much as the next guy.

I have entertained the idea the JFK and Elvis are still alive, that the U.S. government faked the moon landing, and the twin towers fell because of inferior steel due to collusion of union steel workers and corrupt building inspectors.

While that can all be highly entertaining and allow one to engage in a certain amount of mental gymnastics and discussions, a person has to drink from the cup of reality at the end of the day. Sort the wheat from the chaff.

In this case, JH murdered Whitney. That is the wheat of it. Hit men? Some deep plot? Without any reason why Whitney would be a target and without any evidence of such, it weighs in as chaff for now, dont you think?
 


KODI--- Why would Holt want to kill his "fantasy girl"? It's been my impression, Holt & WH were friends, maybe close acquantances.

Why would Holt want to all of a sudden get rid of someone who made his life "interesting" so to speak. If WH consumed his thoughts, maybe of future possibilities of being together, WHY would he want to harm her or rid her out of his life?

As a guy, I'd want to always see my "fantasy girl" around as much as possible. Especially, if my life was a "downer" if she gave my life a much needed "boost" simply by seeing her.

So what made Holt change his perception of WH? What made Holt go from romanticizing sexually and all other things about WH to hating her to a point of killing her?

Did WH say something to Holt at one time to "get his act together" to salvage his marriage? Did something she said change his perception of her?
Maybe Holt told WH about his marital problems or insecurities and maybe WH told him directly and without much sympathy he needed to "man up " more often. And maybe these comments hurt his pride and turned his perception of WH to disgust, thus making WH less of dreamy fantasy girl and more like his wife (not to be taken as a bad comment about women) and maybe Holt was resenting his wife.

Just my thoughts....

Good thoughts I think. Just related to the parts BBM:

- Yep, you're a normal guy IMO! Wanting to just see the woman you're thinking of and it brightens your day. I'm female but there's always that friendly smile from someone that makes you happy. That said, I'm like you, I can't think like a killer/rapist, and really don't want to. But maybe she did something out of his "fantasy" mold and it upset him. I personally believe (as of today and subject to change) he didn't plan to kill her, it happened when his "date" didn't go as planned, IMO.

- If he gets her out of his life he gets to keep the WH that was in his mind (and maybe the CH stolen phone pics?), not the one that rejected him, or the one he killed.

- IMO... I think he was still focused on WH when this happened. I don't think he went from romantically sexualizing her to hate or disgust with her. I think he went to "if I can't have her nobody can" even though they never dated. Maybe he asked WH out after JH and his wife had a fight?

- I don't think he wanted her out of his life. I think he wanted to do what he did, and be able to fantasize about it. Whether that means he has violent tendencies or just enjoys *advertiser censored* I have no thoughts or ideas, but maybe the vision of whatever happened during the ... ugh I can't type it... "act"... before the shooting is now part of his imagination?

I have no idea. All of the above is speculation, MOO, and wondering... just thoughts.
 
Respectfully snipped and bolded
While that can all be highly entertaining and allow one to engage in a certain amount of mental gymnastics and discussions, a person has to drink from the cup of reality at the end of the day. Sort the wheat from the chaff.

In this case, JH murdered Whitney. That is the wheat of it. Hit men? Some deep plot? Without any reason why Whitney would be a target and without any evidence of such, it weighs in as chaff for now, dont you think?


Thank you for your eloquent, reasonable and insightful post. Your summary is perfection.
 
BBM

While I don't necessarily feel he planned this for months either, I do feel it's possible he fantasized about it for months prior. In his mind, I can see his fantasy playing out in a much different way then how reality actually did. I can see this agitating him every step of the way and things escalating and getting completely out of control; JH getting angry, at both himself and at Whitney, the fact that he shot her four times when the first shot probably would've sufficed, and his disorganized cleanup after it was all said and done.

I think this adds a piece to the puzzle kodi. It lines up in a way that fits the evidence so far.
 
- I don't think he wanted her out of his life. I think he wanted to do what he did, and be able to fantasize about it. Whether that means he has violent tendencies or just enjoys *advertiser censored* I have no thoughts or ideas, but maybe the vision of whatever happened during the ... ugh I can't type it... "act"... before the shooting is now part of his imagination?

I have no idea. All of the above is speculation, MOO, and wondering... just thoughts.

I think this sounds very plausable. Especially in view of the fact that we are trying to make some kind of sense out of the actions of an individual who commited a "senseless" act. :furious:
 
Glad you had a nice Thanksgiving with your family PIM. I am currently ODing on left over turkey sandwiches (my fav part of the whole thing)

so, I read your latest post and had a couple more thoughts...
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoirotryInMotion
I was aware of it; some posters had been offering comments regarding whether or not JH might fit the profile of an anger-retaliatory rapist. I don’t believe people are as easily ‘categorized’ as you do. I do believe people are inherently inclined to try to categorize others; others actively try to avoid doing that, knowing that surface knowledge, over-generalization, and faulty assumptions lead to error.
I also read the comments by other posters about wether JH might fit the definition of an anger-retaliatory rapist. The thought was put out and we read it and the ones who wanted to, commented on it. I saw that as thought provoking information being added to the general conversational data base on this thread. When I think of "profiling" I think of "going deep" into the most minute nuances of a person. Motivations, habits, living area, type of kill, methods etc... so I guess we have different definitions of that word profiling. I am not an expert and would have to say mine comes mostly from reading about crimes in the past and watching them portrayed on television.

Thanks, Glow--we had a great T-day, and like you, I’m loving the leftovers and easy meals for the next week. And you’re good to wade through my long reply—thanks.

I agree with your above post, and don’t think our definitions of profiling really differ…while ‘going deep’ is a subjective thing (deep for some is not deep for others), discussing the nuances, motivations, habits, and type of kill is what has been discussed in here. Incidentally, I did think the reading was thought-provoking, though I’m not convinced at all that Jonathan Holt fits the profile. (But hey, I’m not even convinced he was the killer, so my opinion on that would be irrelevant for most of the posters in here. ;))

As far as not believing that people are easily categorized, I can see why you would not want to believe that. I am resistant to wanting to believe that also. I think we all are. We all want to think we are unique and possessed of intelligence and talents and abilities. All of that is true of each of us as well as the fact that we still fall inside general lines of identity. Here is an example: Redheads are becoming more rare in our species. As they become more rare, they trigger a biological trip switch in the mind making them "desirable" (rare being desirable) it is also scientifically documented that red haired, fair skinned people have lower pain thresholds and may need more pain medication during a medical procedure to achieve the same level of pain relief as a non red head counterpart. So what we have here is a genetic uniqueness that can be categorized! Categorizing isnt an insult to our uniqueness anymore than most people liking chocolate is. It just is. It is also a way we learn and move forward in the world. Not one person who is in the medical field be it working with the body or the mind, could have gotten through their training if the textbooks educating them didnt contain all the categorizing necessary to break down the normal from the abnormal.

I’d agree with you that scientific categorizations (eg. All humans are mammals) are reliable and useful. And those of course are no threat to each individual’s uniqueness, as you said. I think you misunderstood my post. I’m only saying that we as humans tend to like to put people into tidy boxes—eg. ‘she says that because she’s a liberal’ ‘he did that because he’s a nerd’ ‘he did that b/c he’s an anger-retaliatory rapist’, etc, etc. I’m talking about people trying to figure out what makes people ‘tick’—the “why?” that fascinates all of us about this case, that we’ve said bugs us so much. I think humans inherently tend to categorize personalities and people simply b/c we humans like to feel that we know why—it’s a thing I studied in grad school about the dilemma of cognitive “disequilibrium” (Piaget and others). Utterly fascinating, and true…the mind can’t stand being stuck in that middle ground of not knowing why, not having an answer to some deeply disturbing puzzle. So, we stereotype and categorize and coast on that until something new comes along to upset the belief and cause new disequilibrium—and the reprocessing and re-categorizing starts all over again. The workings of the human brain is really THE most fascinating, amazing puzzle of all. (Just my own enthusiastic opinion!)

Originally Posted by PoirotryInMotion
Yes, though it would be faulty logic, of course, to assume that since he was known as a quiet, nice guy, he must therefore be a serial killer in the making. That would be an exaggerated example of how categorizing can cause problems when combined with faulty logic.
Yes, I agree! If anyone did that it would be faulty. However no one did, so no where else to go with this I guess.

Lol, no, it was an admittedly exaggerated example of how categorizing can go wrong when relied upon exclusively and combined with bad logic.

Originally Posted by PoirotryInMotion
But if you’ll read that whole paragraph, what I’m illustrating is someone who was NOT just anxious about finances.
What makes you assume I didnt read the whole paragraph? Just injecting a note of humor ..

I did read all of what you wrote and I dont have a problem with your using "tentative' as a description of certain aspects of his life. I was pointing out actions that might not be so tentative, stealing the phone from Clint's dresser, popping up beside Whitney's vehicle that fateful morning and asking for a ride, and lets not forget, murdering a person. Taking another's life is the ultimate non tentative action I would think. I just took a moment to look up Antonyms of the word tentative. I used the Merriam Webster dictionary. Here were the first 3 listed: Near Antonyms: absolute, all-out, arrant. Those words sound like they fit perfectly with what JH did in Whitney's vehicle up at the lake. I dont see why he couldn't have some areas where he displayed tentative behavior without that being the total sum of him. I was presenting the other side. The NON tentative actions he took.

I didn’t assume you didn’t read it all; I was trying to politely infer you reread it, though. ;)

Remember, with that whole original post, the traits that I listed were done so with the stipulation that I wanted to only look at the ‘facts’ of the case. I felt it was pretty established from the interviews that JH was anxious about nearly everything in his life. And established by others, not just his own unreliable testimony. This anxious or ‘tentative’ aspect of his personality is not proven inconsistent or false by the accusations of his theft, murder, etc.—simply b/c those alleged actions have not been proven done by him, yet. So even though some might instinctively believe 'he’s not tentative b/c he did _____,' the premise is faulty b/c those fill-in-the-blank actions haven’t been proven, yet. Even confession by the accused isn’t the ‘proof’ one would need, though it’s very, very intuitive for the human mind to think so. False confessions do happen, enough that an accused person still has to be tried for a crime, even if he confesses—the facts have to prove the case, not his confession.

Three really interesting articles on the topic of false confessions if you have the time and are interested:

1) If you didn’t do it, why confess?

There are a few reasons. Sometimes, according to experts’ reported opinions, people confess to protect someone. Sometimes, they’re trying to punish themselves for past wrongdoing. Sometimes they crave fame. But sometimes, police questioning tactics are to blame.

Reports show that the average time of police questioning is one to two hours. The average time of questioning that yields a false conviction? Sixteen and a half.

http://www.totalcriminaldefense.com/news/articles/criminal-evidence/false-confession/

2) False confessions taint many cases, Temple law forum told

Joseph A. Slobodzian, INQUIRER STAFF WRITER
Posted: Friday, November 9, 2012, 9:12 PM


"It's incredibly counterintuitive how common false confessions are. It boggles my mind," said Peter Neufeld of the Innocence Project at Benjamin N. Cardozo School of Law in New York City.
Of 300 people freed through DNA evidence uncovered by the Innocence Project, Neufeld said, 25 percent had been convicted in part by their own false confessions.
"Twenty-five percent false confessions is a much higher number than I or anyone who is in the criminal justice system would ever imagine," Neufeld added.
Neufeld was one of several criminologists, psychologists, and lawyers who spoke Friday about the phenomenon of false confessions at a symposium for lawyers and legal professionals at Temple University's law school, sponsored by the Temple Law Review and the Temple-based Pennsylvania Innocence Project.
The experts said defense lawyers should be aware that even detailed confessions can be false.
Many people, especially those with cognitive or emotional-development problems, are especially vulnerable to being convinced that it is in their best interest to confess to a crime they did not commit.
The experts urged the legal community to push for videotaping police questioning of suspects - from start to finish - as a way of safeguarding criminal suspects who are vulnerable to confessing.
…
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/b..._taint_many_cases__Temple_law_forum_told.html

3) Confessing to Crime, but Innocent
By JOHN SCHWARTZ
Published: September 13, 2010

Eddie Lowery lost 10 years of his life for a crime he did not commit. …

But more than 40 others have given confessions since 1976 that DNA evidence later showed were false, according to records compiled by Brandon L. Garrett, a professor at the University of Virginia School of Law. Experts have long known that some kinds of people — including the mentally impaired, the mentally ill, the young and the easily led — are the likeliest to be induced to confess. There are also people like Mr. Lowery, who says he was just pressed beyond endurance by persistent interrogators.
New research shows how people who were apparently uninvolved in a crime could provide such a detailed account of what occurred, allowing prosecutors to claim that only the defendant could have committed the crime.
An article by Professor Garrett draws on trial transcripts, recorded confessions and other background materials to show how incriminating facts got into those confessions — by police introducing important facts about the case, whether intentionally or unintentionally, during the interrogation.
…
Professor Garrett said he was surprised by the complexity of the confessions he studied. “I expected, and think people intuitively think, that a false confession would look flimsy,” like someone saying simply, “I did it,” he said.
Instead, he said, “almost all of these confessions looked uncannily reliable,” rich in telling detail that almost inevitably had to come from the police. “I had known that in a couple of these cases, contamination could have occurred,” he said, using a term in police circles for introducing facts into the interrogation process. “I didn’t expect to see that almost all of them had been contaminated.”

Of the exonerated defendants in the Garrett study, 26 — more than half — were “mentally disabled,” under 18 at the time or both. Most were subjected to lengthy, high-pressure interrogations, and none had a lawyer present. Thirteen of them were taken to the crime scene.

Jim Trainum, a former policeman who now advises police departments on training officers to avoid false confessions, explained that few of them intend to contaminate an interrogation or convict the innocent.

“You become so fixated on ‘This is the right person, this is the guilty person’ that you tend to ignore everything else,” he said. The problem with false confessions, he said, is “the wrong person is still out there, and he’s able to reoffend.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/14/us/14confess.html?pagewanted=2&hp

Looking at the points in this last article, I believe JH is definitely more likely to be someone who would be susceptible to giving a false confession; his mental instability, the length of police interrogation (6 hours straight on Friday alone), no lawyer present, his being taken to the crime scene.

Originally Posted by PoirotryInMotion
Kids who are bullied as children are those with the more quiet and passive nature;
Is that making a categorization? Do you have a link that can show that is so? I have read that bullies can raise bullies. Many children who are abused grow up to abuse (abuse being a form of bullying) It is also true that some people who are bullied dont grow up to bully just as some abused children grow up to be kind loving parents who abhor violence of any kind.

True that bullies sometimes raise bullies. Also agree that kids can vary in their response to abuse; from what I’ve studied, it depends on the innate nature of a child how they respond to abuse—abuse in one child can produce a very compliant, shy, reserved, anxious adult; abuse in another can produce a kid who grows to be an abusive adult.

Bullying is a huge topic—lots of studies done among age groups ranging from toddlers to college age to workforce. I’m going with reports that JH was bullied in school, so am coming from my knowledge of studies done on school age kids and my former experience as a teacher of middle schoolers. Here are just a few links out of many, based on scholarly research:

1. Bullies target kids who appear vulnerable or unlikely to fight back (depressed kids, in this article):
http://www.cnn.com/2012/02/08/health/depressed-kids-bully-magnets/index.html

2. Bullies target kids who act submissively and anxiously, who are physically weak, who are insecure, lack assertiveness, or who are depressed (this article written by scholarly professional in field):
http://tweenparenting.about.com/od/socialdevelopment/a/Typical-Victim-of-Bullying.htm

3. “victims of harassment were more likely to express depressive and anxious symptoms. Also, attachment styles – such as being anxiously attached or avoidant – turned out to be significant associations.”

Read more at: http://phys.org/news/2011-02-personality-traits-bullies-victims.html#jCp

4. *Excellent, thorough article: 3 types of bullying victims, with the largest group being the ‘passive victims’. Also touches on 2 other types of victims—the ‘bully-victims’ group and the ‘provocative victims.’ From the accounts by neighbors and school chums of JH, I believe he falls within in the most common, first category of ‘passive victim:’

“Bullies do not randomly attack their peers; instead, they target a specific subgroup of students who are often victimized over the course of several years. Just like bullies, victims are a heterogeneous group. Olweus describes three types of victim: the passive victim, the provocative victim, and bully-victim …

•Passive victims do not directly provoke bullies and represent the largest group of victimized children. They are socially withdrawn, often seem anxious, depressed, and fearful, and have very poor self-concepts. When compared with their non-victimized peers, passive victims have fewer if any friends, are lonely and sad, and are more nervous about new situations. This cluster of symptoms makes them attractive targets for bullies who are unusually competent in detecting vulnerability. In the early grades, initial responses to bullying among passive victims include crying, withdrawal, and futile anger. In later grades, they tend to respond by trying to avoid and escape from bullying situations (e.g., being absent from school, running away from home)."

http://www.ksde.org/Default.aspx?tabid=3913


Originally Posted by PoirotryInMotion
{partial quote}...drive around a victim’s hometown area using her ATM card at multiple stops, drop her body and selective evidence around the area, and abandon the crime scene car at a 24-hr Walmart without getting caught on surveillance tape. The cold-blooded hit AND the actions afterward indicate ‘pro’ to me, in other words.

Well any pro killer who is going to do all of that needs to hang his head in shame. I would hope a pro would be quick in and quick out, leaving nary a ripple in the water so to speak instead of leaving the car so messy, scattering evidence willy-nilly all over town, not knowing how much gas they need, letting themselves get caught on camera at the gas station and so on (and on). Not to mention, if there was a pro, then that is a whole nother discussion. A pro would have to be hired. That would mean others are involved, not just JH. <snipped>

Yes, I agree with that first sentence, wholeheartedly. :) I have serious doubts that JH pulled the trigger. I definitely suspect he was involved in the more random actions afterwards that week, including the dropping of evidence. To put it more clearly, to me it appears her killing was done by a professional (or at least someone who&#8217;d done it before), and the actions afterward orchestrated by one or more persons who were a little less experienced about dotting all the i&#8217;s and crossing all the t&#8217;s in a complex murder plot&#8212;though the amount of effort in a short timeframe was admirable. The scattering of evidence willy-nilly around town is part of the scenario of a meticulous though complicated and sometimes messily thought-out plan, to my mind.

Example: the taking off of the license plate was pre-planned. &#8216;Dropped&#8217; up on the mountain purposefully to fit into a plan. What real cool and calculated killer would do that in conjunction with dumping the body?&#8212;taking pains to unscrew a front license plate to provide the only out-of-town evidence leading straight to the body? The body and the murder weapons are prime clues, and are what bring closure to cases. The purposeful plate-drop to me, therefore, was done to look like evidence, to lead LE to her body before the roads closed for the winter, and/or, made to look like someone trying to keep LE from finding her car&#8212;though the killer incongruously also left her car easily found under a streetlamp in a 24-hour parking lot in the geographic center of all the action. The evidence to me clearly shows intent of manipulation. Intent of manipulation to lead LE or others with the evidence shows inordinate planning, which is not something one would see in a sudden &#8216;crime of passion.&#8217;
 
KODI--- Why would Holt want to kill his "fantasy girl"? It's been my impression, Holt & WH were friends, maybe close acquantances.

Why would Holt want to all of a sudden get rid of someone who made his life "interesting" so to speak. If WH consumed his thoughts, maybe of future possibilities of being together, WHY would he want to harm her or rid her out of his life?

As a guy, I'd want to always see my "fantasy girl" around as much as possible. Especially, if my life was a "downer" if she gave my life a much needed "boost" simply by seeing her.

So what made Holt change his perception of WH? What made Holt go from romanticizing sexually and all other things about WH to hating her to a point of killing her?

Did WH say something to Holt at one time to "get his act together" to salvage his marriage? Did something she said change his perception of her?
Maybe Holt told WH about his marital problems or insecurities and maybe WH told him directly and without much sympathy he needed to "man up " more often. And maybe these comments hurt his pride and turned his perception of WH to disgust, thus making WH less of dreamy fantasy girl and more like his wife (not to be taken as a bad comment about women) and maybe Holt was resenting his wife.

Just my thoughts....


IMO: My thought, Xavier, is that JH's "fantasy" went over a line to "obsession." I think he took social niceties portrayed by Whitney (smiling at people, being courteous and helpful to people, etc.) and began believing those things were so much more than they were, when it came to him. Since the two couples were acquaintances who must have been somewhat friendly (I base this on the apartment-sitting JH did for CH and WH), I think any smile, wave hello, nod hello, small talk, etc., that WH sent in the direction of JH were construed by him as "special communication" between him and Whitney.

I'm sure she had no idea he had crossed a line in his thinking about her. And once he crossed that line into being obsessed with her, everything she did, or didn't do, was filtered through that obsession, which had no basis or foundation in reality.

I can't really explain why JH brought a gun along the morning he asked for a ride from WH, because in my supposition above, JH would be thinking that, finally, he and WH would be alone and she could share her unspoken love for him (in his mind, that is what was going to happen)--so, I wonder, why would he need a gun. And then when his fantasy/obsession collided with reality--we can be fairly certain WH burst JH's bubble with her response/reaction to him--he crossed another line with his actions.

Perhaps his obsession was already to the "if I can't have her, nobody can" stage, and the gun was used in gaining access to WH that morning from the get-go. I don't think he went from fantasizing about WH to hating her enough to kill her--he probably killed her because she wouldn't fuel his obsession, wouldn't fulfill whatever it was he had planned. It was all about him.

I guess it might be that way with all murderers?

Just doing a bit of thinking out loud here . . . and being sickened all over again at what a tragedy transpired that day.

I send prayers and good wishes for the families and friends involved with this case.
 
I agree with your above post, and don’t think our definitions of profiling really differ…
I’d agree with you that scientific categorizations (eg. All humans are mammals) are reliable and useful.


So we are in agreement on profiling and categorization. The more we can eliminate the superfluous the more we can focus on the areas we agree/disagree in theory.

And those of course are no threat to each individual’s uniqueness, as you said. I think you misunderstood my post. I’m only saying that we as humans tend to like to put people into tidy boxes—eg. ‘she says that because she’s a liberal’ ‘he did that because he’s a nerd’ ‘he did that b/c he’s an anger-retaliatory rapist’, etc, etc. I’m talking about people trying to figure out what makes people ‘tick’—the “why?” that fascinates all of us about this case, that we’ve said bugs us so much.

I would call those generalizations. I agree with you that most of us are searching for the "why".


I didn’t assume you didn’t read it all; I was trying to politely infer you reread it, though. ;)

If I am going to reply to a post I always re-read it before I reply. So much can be overlooked by merely scanning a post and hitting reply.

This anxious or ‘tentative’ aspect of his personality is not proven inconsistent or false by the accusations of his theft, murder, etc.—simply b/c those alleged actions have not been proven done by him, yet. So even though some might instinctively believe 'he’s not tentative b/c he did _____,' the premise is faulty b/c those fill-in-the-blank actions haven’t been proven, yet. Even confession by the accused isn’t the ‘proof’ one would need, though it’s very, very intuitive for the human mind to think so. False confessions do happen, enough that an accused person still has to be tried for a crime, even if he confesses—the facts have to prove the case, not his confession.

We cant say that people who think he has displayed tentative moments (as well as bold, as well as sneaky, as well as manipulative ones) are using faulty logic. Just one example, stealing the cell phone. How did he find the phone in the first place? Did he only rifle through that one drawer or did he snoop around? We werent there but which seems more likely? And if he says he stole the cell phone from their apartment and IF there are cell phone records verifying the phones use while in JHs possession and IF the police found the phone where he told them it was, then we can only conclude that "parts" of his confession ARE true, right?

Three really interesting articles on the topic of false confessions if you have the time and are interested:

Thank you and of course I am interested and will read them.

To put it more clearly, to me it appears her killing was done by a professional (or at least someone who’d done it before), and the actions afterward orchestrated by one or more persons who were a little less experienced about dotting all the i’s and crossing all the t’s in a complex murder plot—


Lets reason on this, what makes a complex murder plot? Usually that is the stuff of people with complex lives. That is how Caesars got assassinated in ancient Rome. That is how the SEALS got Bin Ladin. Here we are talking about the murder of a young girl. She hadnt even lived long enough to get involved in anything complex. She wasnt the daughter of a mafia don, far from! She was just a little Jehovah's Witness girl. Not trying to veer off into religion here but culturally they are known for keeping separated from the world to a large degree. They dont get involved in the kind of things that could get "complex". She didnt have a meth lab in her home. She wasnt leading a double life of any kind. So as much as I want to understand where this is coming from, I just cant get it on a logical level.


The scattering of evidence willy-nilly around town is part of the scenario of a meticulous though complicated and sometimes messily thought-out plan, to my mind.


Huh? How can it be meticulous AND messy? Well thought out AND willy nilly? :waitasec:


Example: the taking off of the license plate was pre-planned. ‘Dropped’ up on the mountain purposefully to fit into a plan. What real cool and calculated killer would do that in conjunction with dumping the body?—taking pains to unscrew a front license plate to provide the only out-of-town evidence leading straight to the body? The body and the murder weapons are prime clues, and are what bring closure to cases. The purposeful plate-drop to me, therefore, was done to look like evidence, to lead LE to her body before the roads closed for the winter, and/or, made to look like someone trying to keep LE from finding her car—though the killer incongruously also left her car easily found under a streetlamp in a 24-hour parking lot in the geographic center of all the action. The evidence to me clearly shows intent of manipulation. Intent of manipulation to lead LE or others with the evidence shows inordinate planning, which is not something one would see in a sudden ‘crime of passion.’

The irony is, if that was the killers intent it may not have been all that successful. Most of the fast foot work on this case, including evidence found quickly (like the car for example) was the result of friends and members of her congregation NOT LE. I dont think anyone could have known ahead of time that almost perfect alignment of friends hitting the streets and finding the car, bank managers releasing debit card info immediately, an experienced search and rescue member of her church organizing the search, How could one have ever guessed that would happen?





[/QUOTE]
 
Lets reason on this, what makes a complex murder plot? Usually that is the stuff of people with complex lives. That is how Caesars got assassinated in ancient Rome. That is how the SEALS got Bin Ladin. Here we are talking about the murder of a young girl. She hadnt even lived long enough to get involved in anything complex. She wasnt the daughter of a mafia don, far from! She was just a little Jehovah's Witness girl. Not trying to veer off into religion here but culturally they are known for keeping separated from the world to a large degree. They dont get involved in the kind of things that could get "complex". She didnt have a meth lab in her home. She wasnt leading a double life of any kind. So as much as I want to understand where this is coming from, I just cant get it on a logical level.

I wanted to comment on this part of your post. When the more complex theories first started being tossed around, I thought to myself. . .If she were in NY or Vegas, maybe she could have stumbled across something that would sign her death warrant. But a good little girl in Suburbia, Oregon who doesn't run in violent circles isn't going to be the target of a hit man. IMVHO
 
Originally Posted by PoirotryInMotion
I agree with your above post, and don&#8217;t think our definitions of profiling really differ&#8230;while &#8216;going deep&#8217; is a subjective thing (deep for some is not deep for others), discussing the nuances, motivations, habits, and type of kill is what has been discussed in here.
I&#8217;d agree with you that scientific categorizations (eg. All humans are mammals) are reliable and useful.

So we are in agreement on profiling and categorization. The more we can eliminate the superfluous the more we can focus on the areas we agree/disagree in theory.

If you see profiling as considering the nuances, motivations, habits and type of kill (among other things) then yes, I think we do agree on profiling. Categorizing can be formal (as in scientific classification) or informal (as in putting people into categories such as &#8216;liberal&#8217; &#8216;conservative&#8217; &#8216;geek&#8217; &#8216;jock&#8217;, etc.). The informal categories are different in a key way to the formal scientific ones&#8212;they contain generalizations. Some generalization is useful in discussing theories; the danger in using it for fact-finding is that over-generalization can lead one away from the facts, and then further from the truth.

I&#8217;m gathering we agree on this&#8230;but let me know if that&#8217;s not so. Don&#8217;t want to over-generalize, lol.

Originally Posted by PoirotryInMotion
And those of course are no threat to each individual&#8217;s uniqueness, as you said. I think you misunderstood my post. I&#8217;m only saying that we as humans tend to like to put people into tidy boxes&#8212;eg. &#8216;she says that because she&#8217;s a liberal&#8217; &#8216;he did that because he&#8217;s a nerd&#8217; &#8216;he did that b/c he&#8217;s an anger-retaliatory rapist&#8217;, etc, etc. I&#8217;m talking about people trying to figure out what makes people &#8216;tick&#8217;&#8212;the &#8220;why?&#8221; that fascinates all of us about this case, that we&#8217;ve said bugs us so much.
I would call those generalizations. I agree with you that most of us are searching for the "why".

I&#8217;d call them both generalizations and categorizing (though informal). Semantics aside, though, I'm getting the feeling we really do agree on the differences between scientific ones and informal ones.

Originally Posted by PoirotryInMotion
This anxious or &#8216;tentative&#8217; aspect of his personality is not proven inconsistent or false by the accusations of his theft, murder, etc.&#8212;simply b/c those alleged actions have not been proven done by him, yet. So even though some might instinctively believe 'he&#8217;s not tentative b/c he did _____,' the premise is faulty b/c those fill-in-the-blank actions haven&#8217;t been proven, yet. Even confession by the accused isn&#8217;t the &#8216;proof&#8217; one would need, though it&#8217;s very, very intuitive for the human mind to think so. False confessions do happen, enough that an accused person still has to be tried for a crime, even if he confesses&#8212;the facts have to prove the case, not his confession.

We cant say that people who think he has displayed tentative moments (as well as bold, as well as sneaky, as well as manipulative ones) are using faulty logic. Just one example, stealing the cell phone. How did he find the phone in the first place? Did he only rifle through that one drawer or did he snoop around? We werent there but which seems more likely? And if he says he stole the cell phone from their apartment and IF there are cell phone records verifying the phones use while in JHs possession and IF the police found the phone where he told them it was, then we can only conclude that "parts" of his confession ARE true, right?

I apologize in advance for this lengthy response--if I weren't so sleepy I'd be a good editor and tighten it up. The cell phone thing is so complicated, frankly, and there are so many things we don&#8217;t have access to (eg. phone records, possible other future witnesses concerning that particular cell phone)&#8212;I don&#8217;t see how we can operate from a factual base about it. See, parts of his confession make parts of the story sound plausible&#8230;but then there are parts that could also be untrue, as well as parts that seem so illogical as to almost compel disbelief (for some of us) unless we were to know the reason why -- eg. the tossing of the phone at Roslyn Lake when it&#8217;d been turned off for most of that morning, so GPS tracking/phone ringing was not an issue. Why would her killer purposely toss out such an obvious, personal tie-in to the crime scene&#8212;and in an open area for discovery, no less?

MOO, maybe, but the only conclusion I&#8217;d see possible in your last sentence above at this point in time (before trial) would be that there are AT&T records showing a call that morning on a phone with JH&#8217;s Sim card in it before the crime was committed&#8230;(If we weren&#8217;t there, how do we know the phone was actually in JH&#8217;s possession? how do we know JH made that 6:08 AM call? how do we know which hard phone &#8216;case&#8217; JH&#8217;s Sim card was actually in when that call was made?) Presumably it&#8217;s the same phone (with JH&#8217;s Sim card) found that Saturday morning at the turnout by LE who returned for a search after JH led them to the turnout the night before. But we don&#8217;t know that for sure yet, do we?

Faulty logic can happen when there have been faulty premises. Faulty premises are often the result of overgeneralizations or assumptions. See, those who think he has displayed non-tentative, bold, or sneaky moments &#8216;in stealing the cell phone&#8217; are assuming pretrial that he DID in fact steal the cell phone. An intuitive, natural conclusion, especially when someone accused confesses to that. But, not always a true one. And in this uniquely weird case, I think it&#8217;s an especially shaky conclusion.

It could be true or untrue that he stole that cell phone from Clint&#8217;s apt. Because neither has been proven in court to be true beyond a shadow of a doubt, there is at least one other scenario in my own head about that phone&#8212;and one, incidentally, that also makes that 6:08 AM call to Starbucks make sense. Now&#8230;my scenario isn&#8217;t proven, either. But the point is&#8230;at this moment in time the key cell phone stuff is unproven; it&#8217;s confession (true or false), it&#8217;s assertion by any number of people&#8212;but it&#8217;s not yet FACT. And concluding that &#8220;parts of his confession ARE true&#8221; doesn&#8217;t help us. How will you judge which parts? By assuming certain other people would never make mistakes or would always tell the truth? By assuming everything important to know about that cell phone is already known? By assuming it doesn&#8217;t matter if a confession doesn&#8217;t make logical sense as long as we have one?

JMO maybe, but assumptions in murder trials are dangerous things to entertain if you are sincerely testing for the truth. The truth needs no defense&#8212;it&#8217;s its own defense and is able to stand its own ground. But it can&#8217;t actively do that if we don&#8217;t ask enough questions due to assumptions held dear.

Originally Posted by PoirotryInMotion
Three really interesting articles on the topic of false confessions if you have the time and are interested:

Thank you and of course I am interested and will read them.
You&#8217;re welcome; I think you&#8217;ll find them fascinating (they go deeper).

Originally Posted by PoirotryInMotion
To put it more clearly, to me it appears her killing was done by a professional (or at least someone who&#8217;d done it before), and the actions afterward orchestrated by one or more persons who were a little less experienced about dotting all the i&#8217;s and crossing all the t&#8217;s in a complex murder plot&#8212;

Lets reason on this, what makes a complex murder plot? Usually that is the stuff of people with complex lives. That is how Caesars got assassinated in ancient Rome. That is how the SEALS got Bin Ladin. Here we are talking about the murder of a young girl. She hadnt even lived long enough to get involved in anything complex. She wasnt the daughter of a mafia don, far from! She was just a little Jehovah's Witness girl. Not trying to veer off into religion here but culturally they are known for keeping separated from the world to a large degree. They dont get involved in the kind of things that could get "complex". She didnt have a meth lab in her home. She wasnt leading a double life of any kind. So as much as I want to understand where this is coming from, I just cant get it on a logical level.

Well, MOO, but to me a complex murder plot can mean a lot of different things. Complex in the idea of involving more than the assumed number of people, complex if the perp has engaged in manipulating the evidence, complex politically (as in &#8216;higher level espionage&#8217; or Caesar&#8217;s assassination), or complex as in lots of stray facts and irregularities to check out&#8212;more than usual, in fact. Complex murder plots often have more to do with those committing the murder than their victims. And though my first and strongest inclinations about the victim in this crime are the same as yours, I&#8217;d have to admit that investigators clinging to each and every one of those assumptions as carved-in-stone fact won&#8217;t necessarily help Whitney and her family find the justice she deserves; in fact, that could impede it. Innocent, dear, sweet people who lead pure lives, without duplicity, can and do get murdered by complex people with complex agendas. It is not a reflection or slam on Whitney at all to suggest that possibility. There are plenty of unsolved murders of lovely people (even on this website) that attest to the fact that a murder case can be more complex than the victim&#8217;s own life was.

Originally Posted by PoirotryInMotion
The scattering of evidence willy-nilly around town is part of the scenario of a meticulous though complicated and sometimes messily thought-out plan, to my mind.

Huh? How can it be meticulous AND messy? Well thought out AND willy nilly?

Lol, meticulous and complicated as in having lots of details. Messy as in dealing with those details in a less than thorough manner. (I see the license plate drop as an example; possibly also the cell phone drop.)

Originally Posted by PoirotryInMotion
Example: the taking off of the license plate was pre-planned. &#8216;Dropped&#8217; up on the mountain purposefully to fit into a plan. What real cool and calculated killer would do that in conjunction with dumping the body?&#8212;taking pains to unscrew a front license plate to provide the only out-of-town evidence leading straight to the body? The body and the murder weapons are prime clues, and are what bring closure to cases. The purposeful plate-drop to me, therefore, was done to look like evidence, to lead LE to her body before the roads closed for the winter, and/or, made to look like someone trying to keep LE from finding her car&#8212;though the killer incongruously also left her car easily found under a streetlamp in a 24-hour parking lot in the geographic center of all the action. The evidence to me clearly shows intent of manipulation. Intent of manipulation to lead LE or others with the evidence shows inordinate planning, which is not something one would see in a sudden &#8216;crime of passion.&#8217;

The irony is, if that was the killers intent it may not have been all that successful. Most of the fast foot work on this case, including evidence found quickly (like the car for example) was the result of friends and members of her congregation NOT LE. I dont think anyone could have known ahead of time that almost perfect alignment of friends hitting the streets and finding the car, bank managers releasing debit card info immediately, an experienced search and rescue member of her church organizing the search, How could one have ever guessed that would happen?

The mixed-intent (or 'irony of unsuccess' you noted) is what keeps sending me mixed messages in this crime. What makes me take a closer look.

One could never have guessed all that would happen, I agree.

PS. Thanks for batting all these thoughts around; writing them down helps me think it through.
 
I wanted to comment on this part of your post. When the more complex theories first started being tossed around, I thought to myself. . .If she were in NY or Vegas, maybe she could have stumbled across something that would sign her death warrant. But a good little girl in Suburbia, Oregon who doesn't run in violent circles isn't going to be the target of a hit man. IMVHO

I couldnt agree with you more. Usually, the simplest answer is the right one.
 
I wanted to comment on this part of your post. When the more complex theories first started being tossed around, I thought to myself. . .If she were in NY or Vegas, maybe she could have stumbled across something that would sign her death warrant. But a good little girl in Suburbia, Oregon who doesn't run in violent circles isn't going to be the target of a hit man. IMVHO

I think like you do newsjunkie. The whole hit man scenario would have to have a reason.. I dont know a lot about hit men but I would guess that they conduct themselves as a business since they are basically in "that business. Now and then you will hear about a man (or woman) trying to get their spouse killed but that doesnt fit this scenario. So that would leave some kind of "underworld" type of motive and like you said, it wasnt the right area of the country or the right type of girl for that.
 
Amen! :gthanks:


There is a maxim used a lot in diagnostic medicine that says "When you hear hoofbeats behind you, don't expect to see a zebra"

Horses are common, zebras are not. Most times the simple explanation is the correct one.

I first heard of Occam’s Razor here on WS about 10 years ago. Occam’s Razor states that one should not make more assumptions than needed. When multiple explanations are available for a phenomenon, the simplest version is preferred. A charred tree on the ground could be caused by a landing alien ship or a lightning strike. According to Occam’s Razor, the lightning strike is the preferred explanation as it requires the fewest assumptions.


I think that both of those sayings are helpful in this case!
 


KODI--- Why would Holt want to kill his "fantasy girl"? It's been my impression, Holt & WH were friends, maybe close acquantances.

Why would Holt want to all of a sudden get rid of someone who made his life "interesting" so to speak. If WH consumed his thoughts, maybe of future possibilities of being together, WHY would he want to harm her or rid her out of his life?

As a guy, I'd want to always see my "fantasy girl" around as much as possible. Especially, if my life was a "downer" if she gave my life a much needed "boost" simply by seeing her.

So what made Holt change his perception of WH? What made Holt go from romanticizing sexually and all other things about WH to hating her to a point of killing her?

Did WH say something to Holt at one time to "get his act together" to salvage his marriage? Did something she said change his perception of her?
Maybe Holt told WH about his marital problems or insecurities and maybe WH told him directly and without much sympathy he needed to "man up " more often. And maybe these comments hurt his pride and turned his perception of WH to disgust, thus making WH less of dreamy fantasy girl and more like his wife (not to be taken as a bad comment about women) and maybe Holt was resenting his wife.

Just my thoughts....

I haven't been avoiding your questions, Xavier, I've just been nursing a broken leg. :anguish:

I don't feel she was his fantasy girl, but rather an obsession, and there's a big difference between the two, IMO. And while I feel he can fantasize about her, I don't think that constitutes her being his fantasy girl.

And I'm afraid I didn't make my previous post very clear, either, so let me see if I can do that now, despite the pain pills. *chuckles* I do believe he fantasized about being with her and I do believe he was obsessed with that fantasy and with her. In his twisted mind, I see him believing his fantasy, at least to a certain extent, and thinking perhaps there was a chance something could actually happen between the two of them. This is what an obsession can do to someone and it can make them think and even believe things that are irrational.

So I do believe he fantasized about her and was obsessed with her for quite some time prior to the abduction but I don't feel he planned to kill her initially. I feel when she made it clear she would not comply, this went against his fantasy and that not only angered him, but humiliated him, as well, causing him to become increasingly agitated.

This could especially be true, if you take into account your thoughts on his self-esteem and what her rejection would've done to him. Unfortunately, I can see it enraging him and him losing all control, ultimately ending with him shooting her four times. I don't think he set out to do that, I think what transpired during the abduction led to his reacting that way and I'd be willing to bet in his demented mind, he regrets taking her away from himself the most. It's all about him and his obsession with her.

Again, simply MOO.
 
Good thoughts I think. Just related to the parts BBM:

- Yep, you're a normal guy IMO! Wanting to just see the woman you're thinking of and it brightens your day. I'm female but there's always that friendly smile from someone that makes you happy. That said, I'm like you, I can't think like a killer/rapist, and really don't want to. But maybe she did something out of his "fantasy" mold and it upset him. I personally believe (as of today and subject to change) he didn't plan to kill her, it happened when his "date" didn't go as planned, IMO.

- If he gets her out of his life he gets to keep the WH that was in his mind (and maybe the CH stolen phone pics?), not the one that rejected him, or the one he killed.

- IMO... I think he was still focused on WH when this happened. I don't think he went from romantically sexualizing her to hate or disgust with her. I think he went to "if I can't have her nobody can" even though they never dated. Maybe he asked WH out after JH and his wife had a fight?

- I don't think he wanted her out of his life. I think he wanted to do what he did, and be able to fantasize about it. Whether that means he has violent tendencies or just enjoys *advertiser censored* I have no thoughts or ideas, but maybe the vision of whatever happened during the ... ugh I can't type it... "act"... before the shooting is now part of his imagination?

I have no idea. All of the above is speculation, MOO, and wondering... just thoughts.

BBM

Very good points, nikb and I hadn't thought of them. Nice :twocents: *smiles*
 
The cell phone thing is so complicated, frankly, and there are so many things we don’t have access to (eg. phone records, possible other future witnesses concerning that particular cell phone)—I don’t see how we can operate from a factual base about it.

How is it complicated?

We dont have access to those records and witnesses but LE does. Dont you think that the DA's office has poured through his cell phone history? As far as saying well the Sim card could have been tampered with, wouldnt Amanda know exactly what his phone looked like? Wouldnt she have told LE "no thats not his phone that he has been using? I would bet that LE is doing their job and checking out all of his "confession" because they want a conviction. I would think they would have asked her when she first noticed him using the stolen phone, what his "cover story" was that he told her as to how he acquired the phone (probably along the lines of "I found it and had someone jail break it" or a guy at work sold it to me for $20 or some such amount.) and she would give them an honest answer. Maybe they even checked with workmates and his father for further witnesses to his use of the phone.

See, parts of his confession make parts of the story sound plausible…but then there are parts that could also be untrue, as well as parts that seem so illogical as to almost compel disbelief (for some of us) unless we were to know the reason why -- eg. the tossing of the phone at Roslyn Lake when it’d been turned off for most of that morning, so GPS tracking/phone ringing was not an issue. Why would her killer purposely toss out such an obvious, personal tie-in to the crime scene—and in an open area for discovery, no less?

Well obviously we dont have the answer for that but some good suggestions have been made on this thread by other posters. Maybe there were pictures on there, maybe Whitney saw the phone and tried to use it, maybe he threw it in frustration. He obviously wasnt thinking clearly that day so who knows? That action doesnt stand out as weird to me. It blends right in with the other weird erratic things he did that day. Its just one among many.

MOO, maybe, but the only conclusion I’d see possible in your last sentence above at this point in time (before trial) would be that there are AT&T records showing a call that morning on a phone with JH’s Sim card in it before the crime was committed…(If we weren’t there, how do we know the phone was actually in JH’s possession? how do we know JH made that 6:08 AM call? how do we know which hard phone ‘case’ JH’s Sim card was actually in when that call was made?) Presumably it’s the same phone (with JH’s Sim card) found that Saturday morning at the turnout by LE who returned for a search after JH led them to the turnout the night before. But we don’t know that for sure yet, do we?

To me, a better question than do we know that for sure, would be if not him then who? Think about all that would involve. Someone is going to steal his Sim card, make a call and then put it back and toss the phone. Or do they steal the phone and make a call and toss it. Is JH unaware of all this happening with his phone? Most kids his age have their phone so close at all times that it is like there is some kind of invisible tether! So how did "someone" get his phone and then replace it without him knowing?

Faulty logic can happen when there have been faulty premises. Faulty premises are often the result of overgeneralizations or assumptions. See, those who think he has displayed non-tentative, bold, or sneaky moments ‘in stealing the cell phone’ are assuming pretrial that he DID in fact steal the cell phone.

Well lets apply some logic that isnt faulty.

He had motive (he wanted it)
He had opportunity (he was alone in their house)
He had the property on him (family and friends seeing him use it)
He confessed to it

there is at least one other scenario in my own head about that phone—and one, incidentally, that also makes that 6:08 AM call to Starbucks make sense.
Now…my scenario isn’t proven, either. But the point is…at this moment in time the key cell phone stuff is unproven; it’s confession (true or false), it’s assertion by any number of people—but it’s not yet FACT.

Things can be a "fact" without waiting for trial. Ex: guy ran a stop sign and hit my car. I took a picture, he was about to leave, the cops got there.
It was a fact that he hit my car before the cops got there. It was a fact before he got a ticket and we got a court date.
On the day of court, the court ruled on the facts. It didnt establish them, the dented car, the picture, the cops testimony did that.

Likewise there are facts that exist now about this case. Those facts will be presented to the court and the court will rule on them. That doesnt make them non facts now.

JMO maybe, but assumptions in murder trials are dangerous things to entertain if you are sincerely testing for the truth. The truth needs no defense—it’s its own defense and is able to stand its own ground. But it can’t actively do that if we don’t ask enough questions due to assumptions held dear.

Question? Those last three words I underlined could be true of yours too(assumptions) or just mine?
I’d have to admit that investigators clinging to each and every one of those assumptions as carved-in-stone fact won’t necessarily help Whitney and her family find the justice she deserves; in fact, that could impede it.

Has there been something LE has done or not done that would make one conclude they are doing that?
 
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