Oscar Pistorius Defense #2

Welcome to Websleuths!
Click to learn how to make a missing person's thread

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves
http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Pistorius-Weskoppies-report-ready-20140627

“The Paralympian’s evaluation would not exceed 30 days, Masipa said. According to a New Age report, Pistorius was last at Weskoppies last Friday.”



It seems OP was let off earlier than expected (last Friday being 20th June). Not sure one can read anything into that.

Oh, this is Websleuths, we can read tea leaves and distant smoke signals and find something in both. LOL!

My bet is that they found he was and is completely sane. He has some current issues with anxiety and depression, and he has been an insomniac for many years. I don't believe that they found him to have had GAD before he committed the murder. GAD came afterwards as he kept receiving Roux's invoices, had to stay locked up in his uncle's home (with his aunt and uncle there 24/7), lost his lifestyle, career, fame, and fortune, and had to cancel his order for that cool McClaren supercar.

There is something in that report that is significantly negative for OP I believe. Roux had only one or two more witnesses that he was going to call, now the defense team has two more weeks of evidence that they feel they need to present. Something went wrong during the psych eval. Can't wait to learn what it was.
 
Oh, this is Websleuths, we can read tea leaves and distant smoke signals and find something in both. LOL!

My bet is that they found he was and is completely sane. He has some current issues with anxiety and depression, and he has been an insomniac for many years. I don't believe that they found him to have had GAD before he committed the murder. GAD came afterwards as he kept receiving Roux's invoices, had to stay locked up in his uncle's home (with his aunt and uncle there 24/7), lost his lifestyle, career, fame, and fortune, and had to cancel his order for that cool McClaren supercar.

There is something in that report that is significantly negative for OP I believe. Roux had only one or two more witnesses that he was going to call, now the defense team has two more weeks of evidence that they feel they need to present. Something went wrong during the psych eval. Can't wait to learn what it was.

Don't know about the factual nature of the 2-week estimate...Perhaps with closing arguments ?

… if not, then we are in for a great 2 weeks of Trial… can't wait !!

My guess is that Vorster's low-level GAD will be confirmed…. don't have any tea leaves to read but my coffee grounds are unanimous on the matter ! ;)
 
Quote from the link:

"The defense has indicated that if the psychiatric report is not ready when court resumes Monday, they will call their next witness. It is unclear exactly who this witness will be, but it is expected that a psychologist might be called to give further evidence about Pistorius' emotional state at the time of the shooting."

Now I'm getting Gag. Not a typo.

http://abcnews.go.com/News/oscar-pi...Entry?id=24315817&ref=https://www.google.com/
 
Oh, this is Websleuths, we can read tea leaves and distant smoke signals and find something in both. LOL!
My bet is that they found he was and is completely sane. He has some current issues with anxiety and depression, and he has been an insomniac for many years. I don't believe that they found him to have had GAD before he committed the murder. GAD came afterwards as he kept receiving Roux's invoices, had to stay locked up in his uncle's home (with his aunt and uncle there 24/7), lost his lifestyle, career, fame, and fortune, and had to cancel his order for that cool McClaren supercar.

There is something in that report that is significantly negative for OP I believe. Roux had only one or two more witnesses that he was going to call, now the defense team has two more weeks of evidence that they feel they need to present. Something went wrong during the psych eval. Can't wait to learn what it was.


:floorlaugh:

I also feel that the DT are working hard at trying to sway the outcome, albeit at a very late stage. Before the break there were only 2-3 days left according to Roux. Two more weeks indicates a lot more argument. Maybe the shrinks have found him to have a personality disorder or sorts and the DT are going to try to use that to get him CH. I do hope not!
 
Quote from the link:

"The defense has indicated that if the psychiatric report is not ready when court resumes Monday, they will call their next witness. It is unclear exactly who this witness will be, but it is expected that a psychologist might be called to give further evidence about Pistorius' emotional state at the time of the shooting."

Now I'm getting Gag. Not a typo.

http://abcnews.go.com/News/oscar-pi...Entry?id=24315817&ref=https://www.google.com/

I'm not sure about this…

Roux wanted to continue with the fight v. flight expert testimony before the State made it's application for the referral…. Roux was not allowed to do so.

If Roux wants to bring forth witnesses to testify about OP's psyche, I believe he will have to wait until the referral report is submitted to the Court and that it is examined… State or Defence may want to examine or cross-examine the authors of said report.
 



:floorlaugh:

I also feel that the DT are working hard at trying to sway the outcome, albeit at a very late stage. Before the break there were only 2-3 days left according to Roux. Two more weeks indicates a lot more argument. Maybe the shrinks have found him to have a personality disorder or sorts and the DT are going to try to use that to get him CH. I do hope not!


Well… according to Roux himself, he was estimating to rest the Defence on Tuesday 13 May…. Vorster started her testimony on the 12th
 
It’s hard to even find much I disagree with in AJDS’s great postings, and I’ll have to just take a point or two because otherwise my reply will be even longer.

This is in response to AJDS's post in page 57 of Defence thread 1 because Mods have since opened this new thread.:

AJDS: “If toilet door was locked from the inside by Reeva, she would not have been standing in front of it whilst OP was bashing at it and shooting at it… she would have taken refuge as far away from the door as possible, i.e.next to the toilet bowl under the toilet window… plus RS surely would have opened the toilet window and screamed for help.

So I infer the toilet door was never locked, therefore the key was not there, because if it had been there, RS would have locked it.

OP was not bashing at the door to gain access :

1- If he wanted to gain access he could have broke the door down completely as he eventually did.

2- If he wanted to gain access, why bash the stainless steel bathtub panel ? …and the wall tiles ?

OP was frustrated and angry… he was bashing about to vent his rage
."

I think she had actually managed to lock herself in the toilet – she was not holding onto the unlocked door. (Even though I must say, when I first heard him talk about retrieving key I felt instinctively that it was suspiciously detailed.)
Because…
1) I just can’t imagine she was holding on to door handle in unlocked toilet and he wouldn’t have tried and succeeded to get it open by yanking it back.
2) He always needs to be in control, show who is boss and he has great upper body strength. So I believe if she had just been trying to hold it closed he would have been successful and got the door opened and events would have unfolded slightly differently- injuries/* shot trajectories.
I do understand some witnesses stated they inferred the injuries meant she could have had an arm outstretched towards the handle but that is convenient for DT having a pee theory. (I digress but re physical battery/other injuries* I also think he is not a man to use his fists first – I perceive him to be a total coward who typically resorts to his gun first - regardless of the Taylor-Memmory & Batchelor allegations - but someone else can put me straight about that if I’m wrong.Hence hard to find any conclusive assault bruises from earlier fighting before being besieged in the toilet.)

3) My hunch was bat first right from the time of bail hearing so I’m finding it hard to get my head around him whacking the unlocked door without the reason being that he needed to get to her to open up, so he could then really get at her or get her to face him by her coming out. (ie Bat strikes as expression of “frustration” at not being able to get to her which escalates to gun.)
BUT I can also see that I could be being too rational myself as I don’t know much about domestic violence so I have been looking at it as if he wanted to get to her rather than just express his rage on walls, bath panels etc. Maybe I I cant think along lines of DV profiles.
Certainly the bath panel damage etc could have all happened in similar time frame to bat strikes as wild lashing out and I have always assumed they happened just before it but are simply not so audible.

4) In addition, I previously thought that the batgunkick ladies’ theory of her stepping out of toilet (but NOT actually successfully retrieving her phone even though it was lying on bathroom floor from when he had previously knocked it out of her hand) was too convenient but I think now it could be the reason it escalated to the gun. And if that was true- that she stepped out briefly- he fired because she had locked the door from the inside and he “had to” stop her screaming.
5) I understand what AJDS is saying in point 1 quoted above- Just because he later smashed door to retrieve her body doesn’t mean that this would have been his first logical alternative instead of the gun. But he was irrational not logical and is trigger-happy. OP resorts to guns easily as a show of power After he’d killed her he had no choice –because it was locked- he had to get her out- not cause because he had at that point planned his intruder excuse..)
6) I think another reason she was facing, close to the door-instead of cowering- could be because she was trying to listen or look through the door split/cracks. Pitch black toilet. Cracks emitting light in– it's instinctive to peer out to the danger on the outside if you are so afraid? Of course she had a very limited view – not saying that I'm certain she would have necessarily actually seen the gun.


Related opinions but not in response to AJDS's post:
His shooting position is still odd to me- that he didn’t shoot more face-on the door. Instead it’s from an angle as if he was hiding or concealing himself. But I just can’t convince myself he was shooting from there because he was already setting up his intruder story. Can only think of two reasons for that
1) Simply that he was in shooter mode and avoiding ricochet and/or more speculatively
2) I still wonder though if he is really quite cunning and it could be simply as Nel said – Reeva was talking to you from behind that door.
Equally I consider it plausible that she could have been facing door not because she was peering out but because she was listening as he had gone silent like a hunter stalking prey. Or less plausibly that he was somehow trying to fool her into coming out or talking her out from there whilst simultaneously giving her the impression that he had calmed down maybe even lying that he had calmed down was going to let her go home after all, but all the while was poised with a gun trained on her from his safe position.

Please feel free to jump in! Sorry if this over long and should be in the theory thread! I’ll post other points separately.

bbm

Yes!
 
4 really good things:

1 trial about to start
2. lots of new interesting and well-reasoned posts
3. new members
4. reinstatement of civilised debate!
 
My opinion is that he was shooting at the sound of the person behind the door. Reeva could have stood into the right corner and would have been missed by shots, so could an intruder. IMO, there is no way OP would risk that happening if we are to believe his story.

So imo, OP heard the screams, knew first shot hit target, heard the shuffles, the fall on magazine rack, hence knew location of Reeva, and maybe, could see her through crack in door. Not too convinced of the last one yet.

But if we are to believe there was an heated argument and Reeva fled to the toilet cubicle to escape, all the rest really is a moot point, because OP was enraged for whatever reason and chose to silence her once and for all.

JMHO

Agreed - totally agree that when he shot he could judge his shots in relation to sounds.
Completely agree that locked or not its all a moot point in respect of out come- as is motive, but it's fascinating to try and piece together a narrative based on evidence and lies precisely because he is so defiant in his denials- he doesn't want the sordid reality to be known.

Agree - about him looking through cracks - still not sure of that.

I must say that MrsB's point about the door tag is really plausible even though I went to great length to write about why she had locked herself in! ie was there really ever a key in the door?

"* OP is a single guy. This toilet was in his master bedroom/bathroom. There was no need for him to ever lock it and therefore no reason to always leave key inserted into lock & hanging from the toilet door. (And when the occasional female guest spent the night, I doubt he ever gave a thought to them needing a key for any reason."

Yes, it is a little strange for a single man to keep a key in a door if he never needs to use it - we typically put those in drawers don't we?

Unrelated points:
Would love to hear if any "spare room" forensics/detective evidence was presented too because, like a previous poster, I do think she may have, during the"kitchen argument" have decided to stay in the spare room- well before it got deadly.
DO also assume that she had said they had better split up either earlier or during the row EVDMerwe heard. Once it got much worse - when she got out her newly laundered jeans she was actually going to try to drive home alone, despite the danger, instead but he wouldn't let her.
We have heard so much about his actions, it's good to consider what she was doing as she did try to survive.

PS Re previous poster Yes she would have known Frank was there, in SA households with servants you do know they are on premises even though they too should be neither seen nor heard in their "downtime" JMO
Yes she may have though Frank might help too.
Really surprised some enterprising SA journalist hasn't tracked him down.
Maybe he's in Arnold's Mozambique bolthole? Nah - probably just been sent back to his family with his cash?!

Again mods, please feel free to tell me to move to theory thread!!
 
The defense opens a can of worms regarding mental state of mind at the time of shooting a person through a small toilet
The prosecution and the state of South Africa quickly put the lid back on that can of worms and sent it off for official exam...
It will come back as normal as you or I... Yes we all have problems yes under exam we will all show signs of a trait that is undisireable it will take at least a thousand page report to show what we all ready know that Oscar is not a nice person... Most famous people are not..
But because being famous is not an excuse for murder the Buck stops here and now

I imagine the judges will have plenty of time to see Oscar had lied and will not take his wailing and puking seriously
I think all that is left is to decide how long he will spend in jail
 
If I were a member of the DT I'd have used this extra time to explain the woman's screams the ear witnesses heard - so far they've done a terrible job of countering them, IMO. Initially Roux promised the court he'd show that OP screamed in falsetto when scared and so far we've had :
- OP shouting in falsetto during his testimony (yet still sounding like a man)
- Female DT ear witnesses reproducing the wailing/crying that OP did after he'd shot Reeva even though they identified that this wailing/crying was masculine,
- The DT's assertion that while screaming did occur it was, in fact, OP screaming in fear (and like a woman) which is backed only by a comment from OP during his testimony that he'd "never screamed like that before or since" (I'm paraphrasing).

After Roux's initial assertion I was expecting, at the very least, an audiologist or other sound expert's testimony leading us through decibel ranges and outlining how OP's screams could and did reach SUSTAINED falsetto range. The lack of that and the cobbled together nature of the other sound tests have, IMO done not a single thing to cast a shred of doubt on those screams being Reeva's. The DT would have her mute - through her supposed trip to the toilet, through OP's screaming rampage and through being shot in the hip and arm yet they've done nothing IMO to adequately eliminate the screams of terror she made.

And as for dr Stipp's "intermingled voices" - I dunno, maybe they could show OP was planning a career in ventriloquism after his athletics career had run its course?
 
http://www.ibtimes.com/oscar-pistorius-update-murder-trial-have-yet-another-delay-1614308

Oscar Pistorius Update: Murder Trial To Have Yet Another Delay?
By Anthony Riccobono@tony_riccobono, June 27 2014 5:36 PM

"Dr Leon Fine, who suffered the heart attack was part of the team that had been evaluating the defendant. According to eNCA, Pistorius’ psychiatric evaluation report wasn’t handed over as originally planned, because the psychiatrist was unable to sign it. However, the report was expected to be delivered on Friday night, and the trial is expected to resume as scheduled, according to the BBC"...
 
Channel 4 News speaks to one of South Africa's leading lawyers, Renier Spies, about how Mental health assessment outcome will affect the trial.

"I'm not alone when I say he was a terrible witness," Mr Spies told Channel 4 News. "Every aspect can be criticised: there were numerous material contradictions, I'm sure Gerrie Nel will criticise his demeanour and inherent improbabilities in his evidence."

But if independent assessors decide Pistorius does not have GAD, all of the efforts by the state to provide explanations for his actions can no longer be considered by the trial.

As a result, getting the court to refer him for independent assessment was a "stroke of genius" by prosecutors, said Mr Spies. "In a nutshell, it is the one thing that can destroy the defence case completely... They (prosecutors) can argue that at no stage relevant to any allegations was there anything wrong with him, on a psychological basis," Mr Spies told Channel 4 News.

"This would mean there are no excuses any more. And it would certainly empower the court to make the finding that Pistorius endeavoured to mislead everyone from the start... That is going to change the game quite drastically."

http://www.channel4.com/news/oscar-pistorius-murder-trial-resumes-psychiatric
 
The psychiatrist who has had the heart attack was the one appointed by Defence Team. Dr Leon Fine has the speciality in GAD and apparently much experience in giving expert testimony.
The DT team appointees haven't had much luck have they?!
 
Think this- from WS user Cape Town Crim- trial thread 40, page 3 is worth quoting:

"The gold mine I speak of, is that all reports compiled by the panel will be available to Gerrie Nel. These reports will clearly indicate where the information was gained and will in all probability refer to his childhood, events, events leading up to the incident, interviews with WHOMEVER the panel desire. This in order to provide an appropriate diagnosis if necessary or highlight his mental capacity at the time of the shooting, as well as now.

They have to state to the court if Oscar knew the difference between right and wrong, and if he was able to act accordingly etc etc.

To do this, the panel (and the PT's psychiatrist in particular) they need a VERY BROAD frame of reference. Not just fond words and recommendations from loved ones.

In their findings and reports lies a potential gold mine. Gerrie would never have come close to having a PT shrink actually interviewing Oscar - not even if he re-opened his case. It would not happen. The only way a PT shrink was going to come close to Oscar and his inner working - would be through sectioning.

Remember, that state are NOT entitled to call character witnesses during the presentation of their case, so much of what the prosecution knew to be 'true' about OP's character - was buried. (The Myer's girls have stated that nothing they told police in statements has been revealed in court - this because it is inadmissible.)

However, this evaluation brings the opportunity for 'some' of OP's previous behavior etc to be evaluated - and not just from a positive PR family, defense paid angle.

Gerrie get's access to everything that goes down in the 30 days. For the PT (who have been fighting blind, due to the accused's and defense's 'blanket right to silence' on eveyrthing) this is gold - of huge value.

It tells him exactly in which way to move forward (closing etc) What is found in these reports (the findings) - WILL be entered into evidence, and may be used in argument.

Remember, OP can refuse to answer anything put to him by the panel. Anything that may incriminate him. He has however been ordered by the courts to participate. It's risky for him to be anything other than co-operative............

(personally, I believe Gerrie reckons his true colours won't take long to emerge without the help of anything external. OP can not keep up a facade for 30 days. The hope for the prosecution, I'm sure: Fit to stand trial, zero anxiety disorder, but Narcissistic tendencies etc)"
 
I know it sounds a little silly to base all this on the unsightly aesthetics of that plastic green tagged key...but I feel rather strongly about this. No single guy living in this luxurious "bachelor pad" is going to have that hideous key dangling from the Master Bedroom toilet (on a door he has never had a need to lock since the day he moved in). That door opened out, so when it wasn't closed & in use, the key would always be visible.

~rsbm~

.. not silly at all, MrsB .. I've always felt that right from the start there is something not quite right about that key .. and you're right, a cheap old green plastic tag is not something which a bloke like him is going to have dangling from a door in his luxury toilet/bathroom area. The elaborateness of his 'key retrieval' story means that it just does not ring true to me, either .. never has done.
 
And as for dr Stipp's "intermingled voices" - I dunno, maybe they could show OP was planning a career in ventriloquism after his athletics career had run its course?

~rsbm~

:floorlaugh:
 
I think this is why OP wants the magazine rack to be nearer the door and not where it's found, so he can use it for his 'wood moving' sound.

Not sure why else he wants the rack not to be where it is.

He doesn't want the magazine case because:

1. He says there was tampering/contamination and that the police have contaminated the scene as it was not there on the day of the incident

2. He also doesn't want it there because the prosecution ballistic expert said that Reeva fell on the magazine case and her head was on the toilet. If the magazine rack was not there, Reeva would have fallen on the floor, her head would not reach the toilet and it would add doubt to the prosecution ballistic evidence.
 
Channel 4 News speaks to one of South Africa's leading lawyers, Renier Spies, about how Mental health assessment outcome will affect the trial.

"I'm not alone when I say he was a terrible witness," Mr Spies told Channel 4 News. "Every aspect can be criticised: there were numerous material contradictions, I'm sure Gerrie Nel will criticise his demeanour and inherent improbabilities in his evidence."

But if independent assessors decide Pistorius does not have GAD, all of the efforts by the state to provide explanations for his actions can no longer be considered by the trial.

As a result, getting the court to refer him for independent assessment was a "stroke of genius" by prosecutors, said Mr Spies. "In a nutshell, it is the one thing that can destroy the defence case completely... They (prosecutors) can argue that at no stage relevant to any allegations was there anything wrong with him, on a psychological basis," Mr Spies told Channel 4 News.

"This would mean there are no excuses any more. And it would certainly empower the court to make the finding that Pistorius endeavoured to mislead everyone from the start... That is going to change the game quite drastically."

http://www.channel4.com/news/oscar-pistorius-murder-trial-resumes-psychiatric
Yes. It will destroy the defense. They are in a difficult position-OP is on a tightrope when it comes to the assessments. He can go too far or not far enough. Either way will pose a problem for him, yes? And of course, as it was already stated, if he shows stability....well then all of the stuff about paranoia and fearfulness goes out of the window.
 
He doesn't want the magazine case because:

1. He says there was tampering/contamination and that the police have contaminated the scene as it was not there on the day of the incident

2. He also doesn't want it there because the prosecution ballistic expert said that Reeva fell on the magazine case and her head was on the toilet. If the magazine rack was not there, Reeva would have fallen on the floor, her head would not reach the toilet and it would add doubt to the prosecution ballistic evidence.

If the mag rack moved creating a wood sound, and it is the only thing that could, then the State could and will say that OP fired at the sound, that OP intentionally fired at Reeva. OPs defense cannot have that because he says and wants the court to believe that he was not firing directly at Reeva, the shots that hit her were an accident. OP says that if he had wanted to shoot the intruder he would have fired to the far right of the door, up higher. That is why OP says the mag rack was several feet away from the area that he fired his shots in to, and that the police moved the rack.

It is an additional defense. Putative self defense is him actually intending to shoot the intruder. Now this other defense that he never intended to actually shoot the intruder, it just accidentally happened that his bullets struck and killed Reeva. Roux is layering numerous defenses, add GAD to the list.
 

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
184
Guests online
1,700
Total visitors
1,884

Forum statistics

Threads
605,667
Messages
18,190,586
Members
233,492
Latest member
edlynch
Back
Top