Oscar Pistorius Defense #2

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

Some points :

* Where was Reeva's toothbrush? should have been found out from DNA and it will be very distinctive imo.. it was mentioned during the trial that a toothbrush lately used was found in the spare bedroom..whose was it ?
And was it still wet ?

* The glasses on the bedside tables ..Which one was Reeva's and Oscar's? Should have been determined by now..

* A cosmetic bag on the side of thr bathtub. It always appears to me a bit strange when I look at the photos. Not a very usual place to sit imo.. I rather expect it to be near a mirror or the sink..

* Why was Reeva's purse taken away from the house by AP ? AFAIR that was mentioned by Clarice Stander .. was it a purse or kind of clutch or handbag ? what was there in it so important and how was AP allowed to do that ?

* Is it a fact that the inside out jeans are Reeva's ? Just no way it does ring true to me that Reeva would ever leave them on the floor in-out like that? If it were OP's then maybe he was on his legs during the shooting and then put off them in a hurry for his intruder story ..If Reeva's ,then how did it end up there like that ?

JMO

 

[Val1]

The psychiatrist who has had the heart attack was the one appointed by Defence Team. Dr Leon Fine has the speciality in GAD and apparently much experience in giving expert testimony.
The DT team appointees haven't had much luck have they?!

Actually, I would think it fortuitous rather than bad luck. Perhaps Roux can get Dixon to come back to read the report with his expert eye instruments? Can't really cross him on it if he's only the messenger... right?

 

[Val1]

~rsbm~

.. not silly at all, MrsB .. I've always felt that right from the start there is something not quite right about that key .. and you're right, a cheap old green plastic tag is not something which a bloke like him is going to have dangling from a door in his luxury toilet/bathroom area. The elaborateness of his 'key retrieval' story means that it just does not ring true to me, either .. never has done.

Correct, especially since the key in the door looks suspiciously like the ones on the keyring that were in his bedside table/drawer in earlier pics. Apologies if I've stretched the page, I forgot how to make a thumbprint and wanted the pic to show, the bottom link is a close up pic of the keys in the door but that's way too big.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/oscar-legs-stand-article-1.1268919#

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/pistorius-trial/pistorius-trial-evidence-revealed-n61796
Pic of door with keys http://media4.s-nbcnews.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Slideshows/_production/ss-140325-pistorius-evidence/ss-140325-pistorius-door-bulletholes.nbcnews-ux-1200-800.jpg

 

[cottonweaver]

Lots of interesting points made in last page on this thread – but I don’t know how to multi-quote a group of posters.
Please feel free to correct, I'm sure forum will get very busy tomorrow!

The magazine rack
Lisa Salinger provided a great explanation, a few weeks ago on WS, as to why OP doesn’t want RS falling onto the mag rack. I’m pretty sure she deduced that from Mangena’s ballistics findings it's position "allowed" time for reeva to have screamed. The mag rack tied in with the speed of her fall after the hip shot and then in relation to next shot impact positions, plus the missed shot, assumed hands over head defensively... all allowed a pause to scream after the initial hip impact. (Yes naturally, sound of her falling on it may also have helped him locate her for final shots and his now handy tailoring for him as “wood moving. &#8220 I’ve not described it as well as Lisa but that was the gist, it would take too long to find it to quote unless someone else can locate.

Spare room and toothbrush
I know SAPS are under-resourced but one would really think they would have tested it already for RS DNA. (After the bail hearing and Botha’s sacking the overseeing of the investigation went out of local control and they put the top detective Moonoo in charge.) It’s frustrating I agree, especially as an RS toothbrush in a spare bedroom would really build evidence of a row so yes it's irritating not to be able to discount these things but we don’t get to see all the evidence via the live broadcasts. I am presuming her DNA is not on it.

The Jeans
OP was asked by Nel, OP said the belonged to RS. Nothing confirmed but I guess the detectives just looked at the size labels etc and found them to be for a slim woman rather than an athlete’s thighs. (He wouldn’t have been able to get them on – why are they on the floor is the only issue to Nel as it adds to likelihood of an argument and her wanting to get dressed and leave. If I remember correctly, from the RS text history, she had done laundry at his home in his absence. (I always wash jeans inside out- they retain colour longer.)

Dr. Leon Fine’s heart attack- unlucky
I just meant the DT will see it as unlucky from their point of view. Someone more informed may be able to confirm if any of the Weskoppies’s panel would typically take the stand to explain the report – I don’t know. It would be great if that were true – in which case I’d like to hear Fine’s account as well as that of State appointees. (But I agree in part ie. it’s the state witnesses that have given me the only LOL moments in this tragic case. Indeed Webber’s firm and Roux- in respect of professional reputation- must be ruing the day they ever took this brief!)

Bunch of keys on bedside table/were in the drawers?
Someone here, with a better memory can help us out. Think these keys are the ones with the house alarm remote on them, that he carries around with him but I could well be wrong. However if I am correct – would he really keep the loo keys on them too, ie carry ALL his internal door keys around with him? (Sadly can’t remember if he has several house remotes- you could well be right.)
I do think Mrs B may have a point re aesthetics of a shabby plastic key fob and OP’s interior style and indeed because OP comes across as rather OCD, but I’ve always thought key would be rarely visible if it was always in the inside lock of loo door. But MrsB may well be right – in which case it was stored elsewhere. If, as many posters believe – HE actually locked her in – that’s even more shocking. Other details like Eimajjj’s point about the flip flops arrangement is also interesting. The devil’s in the detail, as they say.

Oscar scream recordings
Re Jake18’s post: can’t imagine we are ever going to hear them. How many times have we heard Roux say “I’ll come back to that”. I bet the test was done early on but they don’t really want to play it, don’t want any more uproar in the public gallery! However, in relation to DT’s case no doubt they have been scrabbling around for all kinds of extra “ammunition” in the 30 days break. Indeed, OP has been free in the evenings, after he’s had his de-brief with his psychologist Auntie – maybe he’s been motivated to do another more convincing scream test as now he really does need to “scream like I’ve never screamed before!”

Shame that we’ll never know the truth re all these small details but luckily Nel doesn’t really need them.

 

[G.bng]

➊ I am not following the need for these charts. Didn't ➋ Dr. V, ➌ Roux, and ➍ OP himself say that OP understood right from wrong that night?

➎ I had the impression that Dr. V was throwing Anxiety in to the picture to explain OPs fight response. But his actions of shooting at a person that he never saw (identified) were his own. OP says as much in his putative self defense claim, he intentionally fired to defend himself. ➏ Why the chart? Respectfully, I don't see it's relevance.

With respect, points addressed have been numbered for easy reference and clarity:

➊ Respectfully, IMO you are mostly wrong so perhaps there is more "need" for the chart than you may think.
➋ Dr. V most definitely did testify that OP's mental condition could have affected his ability to act in accordance with his knowledge of right and wrong that night, which if the case would amount to a "non pathological temporary emotional state" as per my corrected chart, the existence or not of which the evaluation is precisely meant to determine.
➌ I don't recall Roux saying anything about OP's ability or not to appreciate wrongfulness, but if he did it would be worth zilch since it's not his job but that of mental health experts and why Masipa ordered the evaluation.
➍ I don't recall OP saying anything about his ability or not to appreciate wrongfulness that night either, but if he did it is also IMO worth zilch and again precisely why Masipa ordered the evaluation.
➎ IMO, it will matter not what OP testified during the trial if, and it's a very big if which I don't know but don't think will be the case, OP is determined to have been incapable of appreciating the wrongfulness of his acts that night due to a "non pathological temporary emotional state", probably fear, exacerbated by GAD or whatever other mental condition the panel might find.
➏ By your post it would appear none but IMO the chart is directly relevant to Masipa's order and the soon to be disclosed results from the evaluation, i.e:

To enquire into whether the accused by reason of mental illness or mental defect, was at the time of the commission of the offence criminally responsible for the offences charged whether he was capable of appreciating the wrongfulness of his act or of acting in accordance with an appreciation of the wrongfulness of his act.

IMO, the operative concept being:

"✄... whether the accused by reason of mental illness or defect, was at the time of the commission of the offence ...✄...capable ...✄... of acting in accordance with an appreciation of the wrongfulness of his act"

Since, however unlikely, the report could leave OP as not criminally responsible (NCR) should the panel finds that at the time of the offence he was suffering "a non pathological temporary emotional state". Or it could significantly mitigate any sentence.
​

And it should go without saying the chart is ONLY relevant if Masipa doesn't find premeditated murder of Reeva, which IMO she can't, at least not if she and her assistants are on the ball and do the timeline calculations correctly, since the Nthlengethwa's evidence more especially in the 3:16:13 time of his call to security proves, IMHO BARD but at very least in all probability, that the shots were the first volley and the bats the second, and in which case all the screaming and crying was, again IMHO BARD but at very least in all probability, one and the same thing, i.e. OP crying and screaming after the shots. So that if the evaluation hasn't already determined OP should be NCR on the basis of a "non pathological temporary emotional state", which I don't know but I can't see it will, the verdict can only be culpable homicide, and if the verdict were to come back as guilty of the murder of Reeva then IMO there will be an immediate appeal on the basis of a misinterpretation of the evidence, since a finding on the evidence there is that the shots were the second volley would be perverse.
JMHOSNNFS,I,OR

 

[cottonweaver]

And it should go without saying the chart is ONLY relevant if Masipa doesn't find premeditated murder of Reeva, which IMO she can't, at least not if she and her assistants are on the ball and do the timeline calculations correctly, since the Nthlengethwa's evidence more especially in the 3:16:13 time of his call to security proves, IMHO BARD but at very least in all probability, that the shots were the first volley and the bats the second, and in which case all the screaming and crying was, again IMHO BARD but at very least in all probability, one and the same thing, i.e. OP crying and screaming after the shots.

Snipped, bolded by me,

Help me out G.bng - what does BARD stand for? I am a newbie!

A very valid point but can I also ask you why you think Mrs N's waking her husband up after hearing one 3.16 bang means that bang must have been final bat strike? ( I assumed she woke with the final shot.) Mr N called security, but he didn't hear the bang himself. Both heard a man crying very soon after the bang, RS is now dead. Mr N heard that crying after checking his daughter's room, going down checking downstairs and going back up. (If OP shot RS in a red mist rage, I still would expect him to start crying in panic and horror very soon after he realised what he had done.)
Pure speculation but once you have prised one panel out of the fielded door (after doing initial damage during earlier "bangs" around 3am ) it's not going to be that hard/loud to get each of the other "planks" out. ) Have we any joiners on board?!!

 

[Viper]

With respect, points addressed have been numbered for easy reference and clarity:

➊ Respectfully, IMO you are mostly wrong so perhaps there is more "need" for the chart than you may think.
➋ Dr. V most definitely did testify that OP's mental condition could have affected his ability to act in accordance with his knowledge of right and wrong that night, which if the case would amount to a "non pathological temporary emotional state" as per my corrected chart, the existence or not of which the evaluation is precisely meant to determine.
➌ I don't recall Roux saying anything about OP's ability or not to appreciate wrongfulness, but if he did it would be worth zilch since it's not his job but that of mental health experts and why Masipa ordered the evaluation.
➍ I don't recall OP saying anything about his ability or not to appreciate wrongfulness that night either, but if he did it is also IMO worth zilch and again precisely why Masipa ordered the evaluation.
➎ IMO, it will matter not what OP testified during the trial if, and it's a very big if which I don't know but don't think will be the case, OP is determined to have been incapable of appreciating the wrongfulness of his acts that night due to a "non pathological temporary emotional state", probably fear, exacerbated by GAD or whatever other mental condition the panel might find.
➏ By your post it would appear none but IMO the chart is directly relevant to Masipa's order and the soon to be disclosed results from the evaluation, i.e:


IMO, the operative concept being:


Since, however unlikely, the report could leave OP as not criminally responsible (NCR) should the panel finds that at the time of the offence he was suffering "a non pathological temporary emotional state". Or it could significantly mitigate any sentence.
​

And it should go without saying the chart is ONLY relevant if Masipa doesn't find premeditated murder of Reeva, which IMO she can't, at least not if she and her assistants are on the ball and do the timeline calculations correctly, since the Nthlengethwa's evidence more especially in the 3:16:13 time of his call to security proves, IMHO BARD but at very least in all probability, that the shots were the first volley and the bats the second, and in which case all the screaming and crying was, again IMHO BARD but at very least in all probability, one and the same thing, i.e. OP crying and screaming after the shots. So that if the evaluation hasn't already determined OP should be NCR on the basis of a "non pathological temporary emotional state", which I don't know but I can't see it will, the verdict can only be culpable homicide, and if the verdict were to come back as guilty of the murder of Reeva then IMO there will be an immediate appeal on the basis of a misinterpretation of the evidence, since a finding on the evidence there is that the shots were the second volley would be perverse.
JMHOSNNFS,I,OR

You really did not have to go through all of the effort that you put in to creating that thing just for me, but I'm very flattered! We will see if you are right or if you are wrong in about 15 hours. Am I right? LOL!!!

 

[believe09]

Question please-If OP was determined to be a danger to himself or others especially if he were under some kind of perceived threat (real or not) would they have remanded him rather than permitted him to continue to be free during the course of his evaluation?

 

[Giles]

Snipped, bolded by me,

Help me out G.bng - what does BARD stand for? I am a newbie!

BARD = Beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

[cottonweaver]

Question please-If OP was determined to be a danger to himself or others especially if he were under some kind of perceived threat (real or not) would they have remanded him rather than permitted him to continue to be free during the course of his evaluation?

The DT's Dr Vorster who diagnosed GAD said people with GAD are not dangerous, as such, but probably should not have access to guns, because they over-react to threats as you said. (Hence all the furore in SA press at moment with families of people with GAD who are wrongly fearful their relative might be dangerous.) Think his previous bail conditions by Judge Nair would have stipulated no risk to others, no access to guns anyway.

It's my understanding that if OP had been judged, during the MH evaluation, to be a suicide risk he would have been "sectioned", treated and trial further delayed. (Some of the personality test questions are there to gauge that, amongst others so no, he wouldn't have remained an outpatient if that became apparent.)

If they had diagnosed clear danger to others- dangerous psychopath-think they would have to do same- section - even though there's no psychiatric cure for that.
All these other anti-social/narcissistic personality disorders are untreatable and he wouldn't be sectioned. Back to court Monday.

(Incidentally if I was in his shoes, potentially facing c.25years in SA prison I would already be thinking about my way out for after the verdict ! So it's a good question you pose. From Oscar's point of view which is preferable prison and possible appeal routes down the line or psych. hospital? It must be harder to fake mental illness than it is suicidal tendencies???)

Hopefully there are other posters with MH background that will be online on thread soon to give a more informed answer.

 

[believe09]

thank you, cottonweaver. I raised this because it seems disingenuous to believe that OP doesn't have any weapons currently unless he has some kind of random sweep being done or some kind of LE minder. He likes them, probably for all of those classic psychological reasons imo. It is difficult for me to believe that someone suffering from GAD, depending on the intensity of it, is ok to be around unless they have a weapon. Only.

But I am just a layperson.

 

[cottonweaver]

thank you, cottonweaver. I raised this because it seems disingenuous to believe that OP doesn't have any weapons currently unless he has some kind of random sweep being done or some kind of LE minder. He likes them, probably for all of those classic psychological reasons imo. It is difficult for me to believe that someone suffering from GAD, depending on the intensity of it, is ok to be around unless they have a weapon. Only.

But I am just a layperson.

I agree.
In reality, as Uncle Arnie has been reported to have 10 guns at his home, even if all in the safe 24/7, Oscar could get hold of one if he wanted to.

The irony is, on the stand, under Roux, he said he has to sleep nightly, with a bodyguard outside his door at Arnold's. If you believe it, read into that what you will!

 

[believe09]

I am trying to anticipate the results of the testing, if I am being honest. I am going to assume he was found, at a minimum, competent and in control of himself on a day to day basis, at least since the murder. Clearly not a threat to himself or others, or he would have been kept.

I use the term murder only because that is what I believe it was.

 

[zoran]

sorry if its been mentioned but when are we back in court

 

[zoran]

never mind

http://abcnews.go.com/International...-report-impact-murder-trial/story?id=24343846

 

[cottonweaver]

Hi Zoran,

OP is back in court Monday.

There are different opinions on this thread re. how long it will take to get to closing arguments
Attorney Webber: "I anticipate that we are going to complete our evidence [when the trial resumes] so it will probably last for a couple of weeks," Webber told Sapa."

Think Webber is referring to trial taking a couple of weeks - not 2 weeks for DT to close their case. IF that's correct interpretation, it must include their 2 or 3 witnesses plus the closing arguments.
One of Roux's intended witnesses in May was a Defence psychologist who was presumably going to reinforce some of Vorster's diagnosis but in terms disability producing excessive fear or something like that. However with both sides only just getting the Weskoppies's results, I anticipate their psychologist might have to do some "adjustments" to his expert testimony this weekend.

As a previous poster noted, there was unanimous agreement :
".....But the psychiatrists' joint report was delayed after Dr Leon Fine suffered a heart attack last night. Fine still needs to sign off the report, which has been unanimously agreed. Nevertheless, it is still expected to be handed over later today ( friday) "

Read more: http://www.theweek.co.uk/world-news...ey-quotes-from-the-murder-trial#ixzz362WWyZ7t

http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/2014/06/27/oscar-pistorius-due-back-in-court-after-evaluation

 

[vansleuths]

During this 30-day break, I went back and went through all of the testimony from the first day, all of which was available on youtube.

I recognize that the judge and her assessors are professionals, but with all of the delays in this trial, I sure hope they remember the finer points of this trial. I do know they have the court record at their disposal but seeing as how poorly the defence has presented their case, I can only think that these delays help them put some time between some of the more damming evidence. Memory does fade.

 

[Cherwell]

I agree.
In reality, as Uncle Arnie has been reported to have 10 guns at his home, even if all in the safe 24/7, Oscar could get hold of one if he wanted to.

The irony is, on the stand, under Roux, he said he has to sleep nightly, with a bodyguard outside his door at Arnold's. If you believe it, read into that what you will!

Perhaps the bodyguard is really there to stop OP getting at the guns :floorlaugh:

 

[cottonweaver]

I recognize that the judge and her assessors are professionals, but with all of the delays in this trial, I sure hope they remember the finer points of this trial. I do know they have the court record at their disposal but seeing as how poorly the defence has presented their case, I can only think that these delays help them put some time between some of the more damming evidence. Memory does fade.

It'll be fine. lease:
Certainly delays have helped DT and as AJDS pointed out on page 1, they have actually engineered some delays. Plus yes Masipa & her two assessors will probably have been on other cases in the 30 days due to the backlogs in SA. And yes it's a pity they can't go and review it on Youtube like you have for a re-fresh.

But, this is THE case of their careers, they will have been refining their notes & ideas as they went along.
Never thought I'd say it about non-jury trials, but i think I'd rather put my faith/fate in them than an average British jury!

 

[vansleuths]

One of the South African news outlets indicated the results of the assessment were unanimous but they didn't elaborate. I think we can all say he probably isn't mentally incapacitated and needs to be hospitalized.

That leaves either GAD or no mental illness at all. If it is GAD, I have a strong feeling the most he will get if found guilty is house arrest.