Oscar Pistorius Defense

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I was making a comparison to someone who does have NPD - whether he does or not is anyone's guess - I think the argument his personality has narcissistic traits is well-founded. Further, due to the nature of this forum, personality disorders are very, very often a topic of discussion for obvious reasons. It isn't people trying to diagnose so much as it is trying to make sense of the unthinkable. I do, very strongly, believe narcissists and abusive personalities share a great many traits though. Whether he's an abuser could be argued too...but there's a lot there seemingly very consistent to someone who is.

I believe, very simply, Oscar thought he would get away with Reeva's murder and still probably does. His entire adult life, and quite possibly much longer, he has never been required to account for his actions. Why should now be different than every other experience? Though he denies it, there is a claim that he boasted to police after being arrested he'd beat the murder charge. "I'll survive. I always win."

I'd thought initially Oscar wasn't the brightest crayon in the box...but I have a sneaking suspicion he's far craftier than some give him credit for.

Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

I'm not sure how cunning OP really is. He's brazen and tenacious, but even with the help his highly-paid defense team (and IMO coaching), his performance on the stand didn't seem either clever or crafty. Even though IMO his testimony was crafted as an attempt to explain the inexplicable, I found it unconvincing.
 
IDK but for Masipa to find it was not reasonably possibly true that OP could have in his paranoia believed there was an intruder is imo a big hurdle to surmount.

I don't understand what you mean when you say a man in OP's "position would have assumed it was Reeva" when there seems to be an inordinate amount of people in SA shooting family members in the dead of night believing them to be intruders, one around the same time as OP who shot his pregnant wife coming out of the bathroom.

Being a subjective test will make it more difficult for Masipa to set aside OP's claim so I believe she will find it is reasonably possibly true. That said I still believe OP will and should be found guilty of at least CH if not murder albeit maybe not of Reeva rather that he had intent to kill an intruder. Certainly I don't see how Masipa could believe it was reasonably possibly true that OP, after arming himself and rushing to "confront" the intruder (as stated during his testimony) on hearing a noise did not intend to kill the burglar only shoot at the door. JMO

About shootings...

The man who shot his pregnant wife pulled the trigger once. He then rushed her to hospital, called the police and gave a statement. Oscar shot four times, called Stander first, never called the police, never gave a statement until they told him he wouldn't get bail without a statement. And his version of events is contradicted by several witnesses, himself included.

Another shooting I know of is a lady who was alone that night. She saw someone using a blow torch on the security gate. She shot twice. It turned out it was her husband. All the witnesses agree on what happened. Oscar knew Reeva was there. Without even asking her where she was he shot at a closed door.

About "a man in his position:"

I live on a farm in the north of South Africa. Five families on neighboring farms have been attacked, brutally tortured and then horribly murdered. So I know what it means to live in fear. There is hardly a person in South Africa who has not experienced crime and violence in one way or another. We all live in fear.

So do I understand Oscar's fear? Yes. And no.

Yes, I understand his fear. We are all afraid. We live in a violent world. And no, I do not understand his fear. Because he did not live like a man who was afraid.

On the farm we have an alarm system and even the smallest child is trained to activate the alarm at the first signs of trouble. Oscar never bothered to check if the alarm outside was working. On the farm we have burglar bars and security gates. A broken window is dangerous. But Oscar took his time fixing his broken window. He has neither burglar bars nor security gates. On the farm the doors and security gates are always locked. Always. Yet Oscar went to sleep with his door open knowing there was a ladder and that his dogs wouldn't hurt a fly. This is not how a man who lives in constant fear behaves. And I know that because I do live in constant fear of an intruder.

So I will say it again. For Oscar's paranoia to be believable, look at his house, his lifestyle and his actions. He did not live like a paranoid man in fear of his life. He lived like a predator, not prey.

More about a man in his position...
How do I explain this...You wake up and you hear a noise in the toilet. You know your daughter/lover/wife/mother is with you in the house. Without even asking who's there or calling your loved one's name, you fire four shots into the toilet. Even here on the farm where fear is always with you, you will not fire into the closed door of a toilet.

G.bng, is this what you wanted to know? Did I understand your questions?
 
BIB. IIRC... South Africa has constitutionally mandated Mandatory Minimum Sentencing for the crime of murder. It is 25 years in prison. No judge that finds an accused guilty of the charge of Murder can give a lesser sentence. Judge Masipa can give a greater sentence, but not a lesser sentence.

Yes. The mandatory minimum sentence is stipulated in section 51 of the Criminal Law amendment of 1997, the prescribed minimum sentence for premeditated murder is life, iirc. If the state can prove premeditation (that means not just planning the crime, but also trying to hide the crime by actions or words) then Masipa will not be gentle in the sentencing.

Edit: I mean that premeditation does not mean just planning the crime. Hiding a crime is also seen as premeditation. And so is lying about the crime. If any of those things can be proven, OP is in deep doodoo.
 
I'm not sure how cunning OP really is. He's brazen and tenacious, but even with the help his highly-paid defense team (and IMO coaching), his performance on the stand didn't seem either clever or crafty. Even though IMO his testimony was crafted as an attempt to explain the inexplicable, I found it unconvincing.

OP veered off script, a lot, during his testimony. There is no way the defense was behind OP blaming them for some of the carp that he did. There were times when you could see Roux's head sink further and further down as the testifying (cross) went on. No matter how much the defense worked with OP, he obviously thought he knew best and went against their wishes.

MOO
 
I think if OP hadn't claimed the bathroom was dark when he shot, when both Stipps said the light was clearly ON, he'd have had a much better chance of avoiding jail. Lying on the stand about a fundamental element of what happened should make everything else he said seem unreliable. OP knew what the Stipps would say under oath, but chose to lie instead of telling the truth.

He has no credibility, believability, or trustworthiness. The discrepancies and inconsistencies between his plea statement, bail application, and trial testimony alone destroyed it all. MOO
 
Given this thread is about OP defense, the attached link about private defense is pretty interesting. (Private defense looks like essentially what we are all talking about regarding OP's self defense claim).

http://www.saflii.org/za/journals/PER/2013/4.html

Anyways, here is an extract:



I mean, (a) above is already a fail for OP. No wonder, one year after the bail statement, he chose to dismiss the self defense claim and go for involuntary claim (i.e. the BS statement of "before I knew it, 4 shots came out of my gun.")

I think his defense is putatative private defense -- which does not require an attack. Not sure whether you saw this very recent case the Capetowncrim posted addressing that specific defense. It also addresses intent in a situation where multiple shots were fired from what appears to me to be the same gun that was used in this case. Carmelita thought she's read somewhere that the gun in the linked case had been modified, but I've not seen more from her on that and the case doesn't say that.

here's the link:

http://www.justice.gov.za/sca/judgments/sca_2014/sca2014-052.pdf
 
Given this thread is about OP defense, the attached link about private defense is pretty interesting. (Private defense looks like essentially what we are all talking about regarding OP's self defense claim).

http://www.saflii.org/za/journals/PER/2013/4.html

Anyways, here is an extract:



I mean, (a) above is already a fail for OP. No wonder, one year after the bail statement, he chose to dismiss the self defense claim and go for involuntary claim (i.e. the BS statement of "before I knew it, 4 shots came out of my gun.")

You are right about private defense. But Oscar's defense is putative private defense. This means his defense is that even though there wasn't an intruder or an attack, he believed that there was. So he's saying yes, he made a mistake, but he honestly believed he was under attack by an intruder.

This is why I said that the first question the judge will ask herself is if it is indeed possible for Oscar to have thought there was an intruder about to attack him.

Edit: For the record. I also said that I don't think the judge will believe him. Because he did not live like a man in fear of intruders.
 
BIB. So you are saying that it does not look good for OP? LOL! I agree!

If OP had only fired just one bullet, his "I was scared and I felt vulnerable and I didn't mean to pull the trigger" story might be believable; and he would probably not be on trial for Premeditated Murder right now. But he didn't, he fired four bullets, and three of them hit Reeva. Reeva was murdered and she died a horrible death.

I can't wait for the next DT "expert" witness to take the stand. Really I am wondering if one will. During a trial the attorneys have to discuss alternatives with the client, and I am leaning towards OP pleading guilty to Murder and taking the MMS of 25 years over risking Life in prison. Time will tell.

"Don't do the crime if you can't do the time." Sammy Davis, Jr.

This can't reasonably possibly be true, or words to that effect. OP wants to walk out of that court room a free man and that's what he's angling for. No way will ever make a concession like that IMO.
 
Yes. The mandatory minimum sentence is stipulated in section 51 of the Criminal Law amendment of 1997, the prescribed minimum sentence for premeditated murder is life, iirc. If the state can prove premeditation (that means not just planning the crime, but also trying to hide the crime by actions or words) then Masipa will not be gentle in the sentencing.

BIB. I'm not sure that the State needs to prove that OP tried to cover up his crime. Although OP has done a brilliant job of doing just that! Maybe it is only that OP intended to kill whomever was behind the WC door.

Quote from the link:
Provincial police spokesman Colonel Vincent Mdunge said in KwaZulu-Natal murders that are premeditated are more prevalent in political killings, love triangles and revenge attacks.

Mdunge gave the example of a person who had stabbed someone more than 20 times.

“If it wasn’t premeditated, the person would have stopped after stabbing the person the first time,” he said.


http://www.iol.co.za/dailynews/opinion/expert-clarifies-premeditated-murder-1.1573253#.U2Bpqr-9LTo
 
You are right about private defense. But Oscar's defense is putative private defense. This means his defense is that even though there wasn't an intruder or an attack, he believed that there was. So he's saying yes, he made a mistake, but he honestly believed he was under attack by an intruder.

This is why I said that the first question the judge will ask herself is if it is indeed possible for Oscar to have thought there was an intruder about to attack him.

Edit: For the record. I also said that I don't think the judge will believe him. Because he did not live like a man in fear of intruders.

Thanks both - let me check out this putative private defense stuff.
 
After hitting her with 3 black talons, OP compounded the crime by failing to get medical attention for Reeva asap. I can't imagine proof he covered up the crime would be needed as well.
 
BIB. I'm not sure that the State needs to prove that OP tried to cover up his crime. Although OP has done a brilliant job of doing just that! Maybe it is only that OP intended to kill whomever was behind the WC door.

Quote from the link:
Provincial police spokesman Colonel Vincent Mdunge said in KwaZulu-Natal murders that are premeditated are more prevalent in political killings, love triangles and revenge attacks.

Mdunge gave the example of a person who had stabbed someone more than 20 times.

“If it wasn’t premeditated, the person would have stopped after stabbing the person the first time,” he said.


http://www.iol.co.za/dailynews/opinion/expert-clarifies-premeditated-murder-1.1573253#.U2Bpqr-9LTo

Apologies if I wasn't clear. I meant either planning and/or covering up and/or lying on the stand can be counted towards the premeditation charge. For premeditation the judge will look at the big picture.
 
a quick thankyou, liesbeth for your posts re the Afrikaans language and the odd translations that went astray, but were then pulled back into line.. deeply appreciated..

I see De Jager has been convicted guilty of his repulsive murders... sentence was going to be given yesterday, I think, but so far , I cant find any update..
 
I think his defense is putatative private defense -- which does not require an attack. Not sure whether you saw this very recent case the Capetowncrim posted addressing that specific defense. It also addresses intent in a situation where multiple shots were fired from what appears to me to be the same gun that was used in this case. Carmelita thought she's read somewhere that the gun in the linked case had been modified, but I've not seen more from her on that and the case doesn't say that.

here's the link:

http://www.justice.gov.za/sca/judgments/sca_2014/sca2014-052.pdf

That case is very different. The person that was killed verbally attacked the shooter, telling him that he wanted to kill him. He also reached in to his pocket for, what the victim thought, was a weapon.

The gun that the victim used was very different from OPs, in that it was manufactured to fire more than one bullet with a single pull of the trigger. OP intended to fire all four of the bullets that he fired at Reeva, with all four of his four pulls on the trigger of his gun that night.
 
I'm not sure how cunning OP really is. He's brazen and tenacious, but even with the help his highly-paid defense team (and IMO coaching), his performance on the stand didn't seem either clever or crafty. Even though IMO his testimony was crafted as an attempt to explain the inexplicable, I found it unconvincing.

Coaching of an accused and witnesses is quite normal procedure. That's not to say that counsel put words into their mouths but rather how best to deal with the various questions that are likely to be asked. They're always advised to "just answer the question" and try and refrain from adding additional information as this can lead them into territory they may not be prepared for. The following article "Why Defend Criminals" is very interesting to read and explains a lot.

http://sheltonlegal.com/why-defend-criminals/
 
You are right about private defense. But Oscar's defense is putative private defense. This means his defense is that even though there wasn't an intruder or an attack, he believed that there was. So he's saying yes, he made a mistake, but he honestly believed he was under attack by an intruder.

This is why I said that the first question the judge will ask herself is if it is indeed possible for Oscar to have thought there was an intruder about to attack him.

Edit: For the record. I also said that I don't think the judge will believe him. Because he did not live like a man in fear of intruders.

he would have to be the unluckiest man in Pretoria to suddenly believe there was an intruder in the middle of an argument ( Vd Mewres testimony, Burger testimony, Stipp testimony) ...

also. it would have to be Pretorias stupidest intruder.. Judge Masipa would have to take that into consideration too. that Oscar believed his intruder was stupid enough to interrupt his argument with Reeva.

its a big ask.
 
a quick thankyou, liesbeth for your posts re the Afrikaans language and the odd translations that went astray, but were then pulled back into line.. deeply appreciated..

I see De Jager has been convicted guilty of his repulsive murders... sentence was going to be given yesterday, I think, but so far , I cant find any update..

Thank you.

Yes. He was convicted and he'll be sentenced on 5 May. Interesting thing is that the judge hammered him for being so evasive during cross examination.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/De-Jager-guilty-of-killing-two-teens-20140429
 
I think his defense is putatative private defense -- which does not require an attack. Not sure whether you saw this very recent case the Capetowncrim posted addressing that specific defense. It also addresses intent in a situation where multiple shots were fired from what appears to me to be the same gun that was used in this case. Carmelita thought she's read somewhere that the gun in the linked case had been modified, but I've not seen more from her on that and the case doesn't say that.

here's the link:

http://www.justice.gov.za/sca/judgments/sca_2014/sca2014-052.pdf

alas... (and I am sure everyone has seen that case.. it gets put up regularly by the hopeful.. )... to add to Oscar's trouble, the law in SA has changed since 2013, when that case was appealed.. Not sure whether you have been following the slight change in law, which, as luck would have it, Oscar falls under, which requires a stiffer standard of behaviour as a gunowner...
 
Thank you.

Yes. He was convicted and he'll be sentenced on 5 May. Interesting thing is that the judge hammered him for being so evasive during cross examination.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/De-Jager-guilty-of-killing-two-teens-20140429

oh hell yes, I read that bit, he got his clock well and truly cleaned for his .. well. .. ... what it was, was an attempt to expect a whole lot of suspension of logic and reason , time, gravity ,physics, .. kind of like what Oscar is having a shot at.. evasiveness.
 
That case is very different. The person that was killed verbally attacked the shooter, telling him that he wanted to kill him. He also reached in to his pocket for, what the victim thought, was a weapon.

The gun that the victim used was very different from OPs, in that it was manufactured to fire more than one bullet with a single pull of the trigger. OP intended to fire all four of the bullets that he fired at Reeva, with all four of his four pulls on the trigger of his gun that night.

That person was not just verbally attacked, he was also kicked in the head and dealt a severe assault that left him incapacitated for three weeks.

link to the appeal judgment:
http://www.saflii.org/za/cases/ZASCA/2014/52.html
 
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