Oscar Pistorius - Discussion Thread #64 ~ the appeal~

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His "just to go out and see my friends" suggests he hasn't grasped what house arrest means OR has he been told something different from what we believe to be house arrest.

I posted a few days ago that Roux had said, after release, OP would be on parole for 10 months which suggested he may be "free to roam" after that. Nobody responded to my question and it remains. What happens after a further 10 months parole? I thought he was under house arrest for the entire 5 years but, to me, it seems unlikely that this is the case.
 
Karyn Maughan @karynmaughan
BREAKING: Parole Review Board has postponed hearing of #OscarPistorius parole review for two weeks @eNCA

BREAKING: Parole Review Board says it was unable to complete all parole reviews yesterday. #OscarPistorius will have to wait 2 weeks

Parole Review Board judge will be meeting with correctional services dept at noon - to discuss #OscarPistorius parole review delay


“They will meet again in two weeks' time to look at his matter," said Manelisi Wolela, spokesman for the Department of Correctional Services.

http://www.emirates247.com/news/world/pistorius-parole-review-delayed-2015-09-19-1.604064
 
Karyn Maughan @karynmaughan
BREAKING: Parole Review Board has postponed hearing of #OscarPistorius parole review for two weeks @eNCA

BREAKING: Parole Review Board says it was unable to complete all parole reviews yesterday. #OscarPistorius will have to wait 2 weeks

Parole Review Board judge will be meeting with correctional services dept at noon - to discuss #OscarPistorius parole review delay


“They will meet again in two weeks' time to look at his matter," said Manelisi Wolela, spokesman for the Department of Correctional Services.

http://www.emirates247.com/news/world/pistorius-parole-review-delayed-2015-09-19-1.604064


If it's reflective of their reputation ( overloaded with cases/under-resourced/delays etc) I can well believe that could easily happen. ie. Wouldn't he have been placed at the bottom of the pile with yesterday's batch as a matter of course - and they process 8 cases a day someone said.
 
His "just to go out and see my friends" suggests he hasn't grasped what house arrest means OR has he been told something different from what we believe to be house arrest.

I posted a few days ago that Roux had said, after release, OP would be on parole for 10 months which suggested he may be "free to roam" after that. Nobody responded to my question and it remains. What happens after a further 10 months parole? I thought he was under house arrest for the entire 5 years but, to me, it seems unlikely that this is the case.


Missed that one IB. Valid question still to which I don't know the answer either. Valid cause even if he stays in through Appeal and is escalated to murder or enhanced CH sentence he still must get House Arrest options with a new longer sentence IMO but dunno - maybe Trotterly can "scout the net" and find out for us all.
 
Missed that one IB. Valid question still to which I don't know the answer either. Valid cause even if he stays in through Appeal and is escalated to murder or enhanced CH sentence he still must get House Arrest options with a new longer sentence IMO but dunno - maybe Trotterly can "scout the net" and find out for us all.

I possibly am being unrealistic in thinking that the house arrest element would be for the whole 4 years 2 months but with only another 10 months parole following his jail time (if nothing changes in the meantime) seems remarkably short for killing somebody. Does Parole not normally end only when the original sentence ends? It would mean this murderous "entitled" not-much-short-of-a-hooligan boy will be living it up again after 20 months total, or thereabouts.
 
http://www.sportsworldnews.com/arti...-blade-runners-parole-delayed-again-video.htm

Pistorius' case is set to go before the court of appeals in November.

"When they meet in two months' time, Appeal Court judges could reject the appeal, convict Pistorius of murder themselves or order a retrial," the Daily Mail reported.


Here's a bit extra, courtesy of Wikipedia, similar may already have been posted a thread or two back.

Powers of court on appeal
The powers of the court on appeal are the same as on automatic review:[350]
• to confirm, alter or quash the conviction, and (where appropriate) to substitute the conviction on an alternative charge;
• to confirm, reduce, alter or set aside the sentence or other order;
• to set aside or correct the proceedings;
• to give such judgment, or impose such sentence, or give such order, as the magistrate ought to have given, etc.;[351]
• to remit the case to the magistrate with instructions to deal with any matter as the High Court may think fit;
• to make any order suspending the execution of the sentence, or releasing the accused on bail, that seems appropriate.
In addition to powers of automatic review, the court of appeal may also increase the sentence.[352] For an example of the approach of the appeal courts to an increase of sentence, see S v Salzwedel
Where the state or a court of appeal considers an increase in sentence, the practice is for notice to be given to the appellant

In general, for the approach of appeal court to
• conviction, see R v Dhlumayo;[355] and
• sentence, see S v Anderson,[356] S v Giannoulis,[357] Malgas and S v Jiminez.[358] If there was no material misdirection by the trial court, the court of appeal will only interfere with the sentence if there is a striking disparity between what the trial court imposed and what the appeal court would have imposed. If there was a material misdirection, the appeal court is "at large" and imposes the sentence it deems fit. The same test applies, whether the original sentence is claimed to have been too severe or too lenient.

Where a conviction or a sentence is set aside on appeal or review, because section 112 or 113 have not been applied or have not been properly applied, the appeal court must remit to the lower court for proper compliance with section 112 or 113.[359]
Where conviction and sentence are set aside on appeal on grounds of technical irregularity, the accused may be retried.

Last BIB doesn't entail double jeopardy AFAIK but is unlikely based on precedence.
 
I possibly am being unrealistic in thinking that the house arrest element would be for the whole 4 years 2 months but with only another 10 months parole following his jail time (if nothing changes in the meantime) seems remarkably short for killing somebody. Does Parole not normally end only when the original sentence ends? It would mean this murderous "entitled" not-much-short-of-a-hooligan boy will be living it up again after 20 months total, or thereabouts.

BIB that was my understanding too

IMO certainly don't think you're being unrealistic to expect more for a convicted CH killer in these particular circumstances.

And as he only has "his underpants left/shirt on his back " (according to those reliable sources previously mentioned, ahem) .... then he might do better to stay home for the full 5 years and save up the pocket money !.....Uncle Arnie will doubtless pay him as a Director of one of their many companies.

Seriously though , yet idly speculating- I imagine Arnold P would get very fed up, if he had OP in the cottage over 5 years for all sorts of reasons. (Imagining AP has a solid work ethic and we hear how difficult it is for ex-sportspeople to establish productive routines after career is over.)
 
BIB1 No, it is based on evidence from the trial. I don't scout the net for others opinions I make up my own mind.

BIB2 The problem is the issues were cloudy to start with. Not clear enough for murder for me.

For murder it would have been nice to hear witnesses say they heard a man and a woman alone in a house and that they heard the man murdering the woman. In fact just that the man killed the woman. But we never even heard that. We heard that an unknown person, presumably either male or female, killed either a man or a woman. Not that anyone could be sure about that. The woman - presumably the one killed, was either locked in a closed up toilet, in the bedroom, the bathroom, the kitchen downstairs or running down the street or not being heard at all.....well you get the idea.

re BIB above

So now the State's HofA have actually been released have you made up your own mind yet on why, in your own opinion, the most likely outcome of the forthcoming Appeal is a re-trial , as you stated previously here and elsewhere.
 
re BIB above

So now the State's HofA have actually been released have you made up your own mind yet on why, in your own opinion, the most likely outcome of the forthcoming Appeal is a re-trial , as you stated previously here and elsewhere.

I presume you mean the defence's HOA?

Where did I say that the most likely outcome of the Appeal is a re-trial?
 
I presume you mean the defence's HOA?

Where did I say that the most likely outcome of the Appeal is a re-trial?


Well the only WS posts from 17th sept are your opinion about his lawyers right to be at the CS review board and about the likelihood of a re-trial, one in reply to Fossil, the other in reply to my post and the one above above you preferring to apply your mind to the previous trial's evidence: eg.


Originally Posted by Mr Fossil :”The drama that defined Oscar Pistorius's parole application

JOHANNESBURG - Oscar Pistorius should know by the end of tomorrow if and when he will be released on parole.

The parole review board is expected to meet in Durban to consider the legality of the Paralympian’s release.

Pistorius’s lawyers have not been given the right to attend the hearing.http://<br /> http://www.enca.com/s...le-application”

to which you replied:
Originally Posted by Trotterly:”BIB Seems rather silly given the circumstances.” &#65532;:facepalm:
&#65532;
and then mine

Originally Posted by cottonweaver &#65532;:”since when has the state been "hoping" or pursuing a re-trial?
A classic Rouxism”

to which you replied:

Originally Posted by Trotterly: “Easy to understand if you follow the response to the appeal.

It would be the only way to get around Masipa's factual findings.”


Fair enough - you did not say most likely but you did say it’s the only way to get around Masipa’s factual findings.

But a re-trial isn’t the “only way to get around Masipa’s factual findings”.
So what are you basing this personal opinion on? Is this “mind”-based ( as you posted recently) or legally-based?
 
#OscarPistorius On Saturday it was confirmed that the panel - didn't consider the athlete's matter because of a heavy case load.[/COLOR]

http://ewn.co.za/2015/09/20/Uncertainty-hangs-over-Pistorius-parole-hearing

That's useful.
And it's possibly why the family already appeared to know (that he wasn't coming out) in advance- the cousin's wife's reported comments outside Arnold's house. (ie. Maybe both family and OP will have been informed, as a courtesy, but not the media.)

As you have posted it's "AT LEAST another 2 weeks", so how long is a piece of string?

(Speculating: Will be interesting to see if there are any moves by family within the next few weeks - legal action - regarding the delay. That might signify more about what is going on/likely to happen with parole Board? But TBH can you even win that sort of action if it's genuinely a very big pile parole cases? The other prisoners released on 18th Aug- surely that would be their only fruitful legal argument?)
 
That's useful.
And it's possibly why the family already appeared to know (that he wasn't coming out) in advance- the cousin's wife's reported comments outside Arnold's house. (ie. Maybe both family and OP will have been informed, as a courtesy, but not the media.)

As you have posted it's "AT LEAST another 2 weeks", so how long is a piece of string?

(Speculating: Will be interesting to see if there are any moves by family within the next few weeks - legal action - regarding the delay. That might signify more about what is going on/likely to happen with parole Board? But TBH can you even win that sort of action if it's genuinely a very big pile parole cases? The other prisoners released on 18th Aug- surely that would be their only fruitful legal argument?)

Given that OP was (apparently) the first to suffer from the "new" ruling, how come he was not first to be reviewed? Or is that too simplistic? Maybe there is more at play than we know. Is someone attempting to keep him inside until the Appeal due to the public outcry over his sentence? Nothing would surprise me. If he is not released before the Appeal, and it goes against him, it would be much easier for the state to keep him inside. Once out on Parole it could be very difficult to reincarcerate him whilst waiting for a further, inevitable, appeal. I am sure I have read somewhere, under these circumstances, he would be allowed to be under home arrest/on bail until the appeal is heard.
 
Given that OP was (apparently) the first to suffer from the "new" ruling, how come he was not first to be reviewed? Or is that too simplistic? Maybe there is more at play than we know. Is someone attempting to keep him inside until the Appeal due to the public outcry over his sentence? Nothing would surprise me. If he is not released before the Appeal, and it goes against him, it would be much easier for the state to keep him inside. Once out on Parole it could be very difficult to reincarcerate him whilst waiting for a further, inevitable, appeal. I am sure I have read somewhere, under these circumstances, he would be allowed to be under home arrest/on bail until the appeal is heard.

BIBs. I agree that it's a fair point. Should he have been put at the bottom or the top of the day's pile- seeing as it was their mistake, or does putting him on the top of the pile affect the "other guy" whose case was meant to be reviewed that day and who maybe has had a much slower path through the justice system? ( remember the case of the disabled guy who was 2 years on remand without even a wheelchair and not on a hospital ward?)

Either way, OP has had a speedy ( by SA standards) ride through the justice/penal processes compared to most and as you say isn't it perhaps practical to keep him in until the Appeal is over*....would they normally do the latter with less notorious cases? ( I don't know)
( Yes you're right he could cross appeal SCA decision and take it to highest court and he can apply for bail in the meantime apparently.)

* Maximum 9 weeks to appeal hearing? How long to release judgment- a week? Issue of the end of the SCA term on Nov 30th as we discussed in previous threads here.)

For sure it's going to be interesting to see Nel & Roux get a grilling and would be funny to be a fly on wall as the 5 judges discuss Masipa's judgment, application of logic etc.
 
...yes it's amazing the number of excuses one could come up with to avoid signing the release document.........the light bulb blew or the pen ran out of ink etc etc....
 
BIBs. I agree that it's a fair point. Should he have been put at the bottom or the top of the day's pile- seeing as it was their mistake, or does putting him on the top of the pile affect the "other guy" whose case was meant to be reviewed that day and who maybe has had a much slower path through the justice system? ( remember the case of the disabled guy who was 2 years on remand without even a wheelchair and not on a hospital ward?)

Either way, OP has had a speedy ( by SA standards) ride through the justice/penal processes compared to most and as you say isn't it perhaps practical to keep him in until the Appeal is over*....would they normally do the latter with less notorious cases? ( I don't know)
( Yes you're right he could cross appeal SCA decision and take it to highest court and he can apply for bail in the meantime apparently.)

* Maximum 9 weeks to appeal hearing? How long to release judgment- a week? Issue of the end of the SCA term on Nov 30th as we discussed in previous threads here.)

For sure it's going to be interesting to see Nel & Roux get a grilling and would be funny to be a fly on wall as the 5 judges discuss Masipa's judgment, application of logic etc.

Spot on as usual Cottonweaver. I completely disregarded that day's reviews which was very shortsighted. Last on the list befits someone for whom money did not answer his needs this time around. I think the family will not be banging on too many desks which would create more bad press for OP and his family.

Re the guy who was severely disabled and had waited 2 years to get to court, I think he was on remand for theft. I cannot remember his name but I wonder whether due to the publicity he was eventually "dealt" with. It seems some people are just "conveniently forgotten".
 
I completely disregarded that day's review which was very shortsighted. Last on the list befits someone for whom money did not answer his needs this time around. I think the family will not be banging on too many desks which would create more bad press for OP and his family.

Re the guy who was severely disabled and had waited 2 years to get to court, I think he was on remand for theft. I cannot remember his name but I wonder whether due to the publicity he was eventually "dealt" with. It seems some people are just "conveniently forgotten".

BIB What do you mean in that sentence IB?

Yes it is fitting really. This delay doesn't "move" me but the photo of the poor guy* with no legs who was having to be carried around by other inmates or drag himself around the prison really does. Wow that was for theft -didn't recall that.
( And the head honcho from CS called to give evidence at sentencing said :Sure we can accomm disabled prisoners with great care in SA. No, only the high profilers who can make a stink get good treatment. )

Maybe OP can dedicate rest of his life doing something for the likes of him.*

PS I am reading the States Heads properly now that the Defence's are in. Then having to cross-ref against Masipa's as Roux tends to take a few "liberties" . Time consuming and some of it very confusing. Especially when I ought to be more doing more important things! Have you had a go at them yet?
 
...yes it's amazing the number of excuses one could come up with to avoid signing the release document.........the light bulb blew or the pen ran out of ink etc etc....

It was probably the light bulb blowing due to "load-shedding"
They seem to be experiencing weekly "national grid" shutdowns over there in SA and they have to dust off the generators!

I'm sure the big P could have donated some pens to CS dept as they have donated gym equip to the prison. Should've asked eh?:blushing:
 
BIB What do you mean in that sentence IB?

Yes it is fitting really. This delay doesn't "move" me but the photo of the poor guy* with no legs who was having to be carried around by other inmates or drag himself around the prison really does. Wow that was for theft -didn't recall that.
( And the head honcho from CS called to give evidence at sentencing said :Sure we can accomm disabled prisoners with great care in SA. No, only the high profilers who can make a stink get good treatment. )

Maybe OP can dedicate rest of his life doing something for the likes of him.*

PS I am reading the States Heads properly now that the Defence's are in. Then having to cross-ref against Masipa's as Roux tends to take a few "liberties" . Time consuming and some of it very confusing. Especially when I ought to be more doing more important things! Have you had a go at them yet?

Nothing more than I did not take into account any other reviews would have been scheduled for that day. I was assuming that this was a board meeting that had been arranged extra to the normal 4 monthly meetings, ie especially to deal with OP's case (and possibly include others at the same time). I am so used to seeing OP get preferential treatment.

I haven't compared the HoA of the two camps but on a first read I confess to thinking the Prosecution Heads were rather rambling and contained way too much Fact rather than Law in their arguments and felt it could be viewed as time wasting by the 5 judges. I thought the Defence HoA were better written though I don't agree with what they say. On a quick scan my impression was that Roux et al attempt to justify the unjustifiable but the document was a more 'professional read'. I will go back and read them sometime this week.

I am afraid I am lily livered with respect to the Appeal. Although I have no doubt OP is guilty, I am very unsure that it is going to go anywhere and, as always, I hope I am completely wrong.
 
BIB What do you mean in that sentence IB?

Yes it is fitting really. This delay doesn't "move" me but the photo of the poor guy* with no legs who was having to be carried around by other inmates or drag himself around the prison really does. Wow that was for theft -didn't recall that.
( And the head honcho from CS called to give evidence at sentencing said :Sure we can accomm disabled prisoners with great care in SA. No, only the high profilers who can make a stink get good treatment. )

Maybe OP can dedicate rest of his life doing something for the likes of him.*

PS I am reading the States Heads properly now that the Defence's are in. Then having to cross-ref against Masipa's as Roux tends to take a few "liberties" . Time consuming and some of it very confusing. Especially when I ought to be more doing more important things! Have you had a go at them yet?

I think it was this guy about whom we were writing. It does seem that he suddenly was granted bail. One assumes it was when this story hit the headlines.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/22/oscar-pistorius-disabled-inmates-prison-poor-treatment

"Paraplegic Ronnie Fakude,who spent 28 months in Grootvlei Correctional Centre awaiting trial on fraud charges before being granted bail earlier this year, is adamant that wherever Pistorius is housed, &#8220;no person with physical disabilities, not me, not Oscar, nor anyone else, deserves to spend time in a South African prison. TheDepartment of Correctional Services was unable to supply me with even the rudimentary comfort of a wheelchair. Instead, The Wits Justice Projectorganised for a wheelchair to be donated. I was told my name would be placed on a three-year prison waiting list..."

NB I was wrong, it was fraud not theft. I had to look up the exact definition of both misdeeds as there is a subtle difference.

http://www.differencebetween.net/miscellaneous/difference-between-fraud-and-theft/

"
Fraud is a deceit or trickery over another to gain profit and an untruthful advantage. Fraud is an intentional deception so that the one doing the act may gain advantage or may profit from it. This is also done so that another individual may be damaged. The main purpose of fraud is to take money or other valuable things from other people. However, there are also other kinds of fraud, likegaining monetary value of science works in an illegal way.

Theft on the other hand is taking something from another person without the consent of that person. It is a crime against property, like money and other valuable things. Looting, mugging, robbery and burglary are types of theft. Someone who has been doing theft for a long time, like it has become his way of living, is called a thief."
 
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