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Oscar Pistorius - Discussion Thread #65~ the appeal~
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All true. That is why I think we will never know exactly what happened as it would require OP coming out with the unvarnished truth. Even if he were to confess to deliberately killing her, there would likely be some attempt at 'justification' in retelling the events leading up to the shooting. And in a way, that would be understandable as most of us try to justify our actions, and often the more so when we are in the wrong.
But, as with so many famous crimes and trials, I think there will always be unanswered questions about this one. A long time ago I was interested in the Manson murders and they are impossible to work out any clear motive, what with about half a dozen competing ones and a cast of characters that have continually changed their stories. Then again, the simplest solution is most likely the right one in the Pistorius case - they argued, she wanted to leave, he lost it, and he shot her. Sadly that's an all too common scenario.
Of course it could be countered that OP told the truth of what happened during his trial but few people, myself included, believe much of that account.
The best lies are told with a thread of truth. As for the cause of the original argument that I suspect was the beginning of what culminated with RS's death, it was likely the speech she was going to give the next morning;
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...s-outside-mansion-s-serving-house-arrest.html
"The speech touched on domestic abuse, family relationships, and even Reeva's struggles to break into the modelling industry because she was not very tall."
something that imo there was no way in Lucifer's backyard that OP would have been happy about let alone approve of after some of the texts she had previously sent him. Can't have that "brand" tarnished, right?:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...storius-the-case-against-the-paralympian.html
"I'm scared of u sometimes and how u snap at me and of how u will react to me, she wrote.
She detailed how he picked on her incessantly, telling her off for doing silly accents, chewing gum and touching his neck affectionately.
In another Whatssap message sent just a week before she died, she wrote of her upset after he shouted at her in public at a sports awards ceremony.
I can't be attacked by outsiders for dating u AND be attacked by you, the one person I deserve protection from," she said. .
soozieqtips
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lithgow - also, someone like OP, who was previously admired and respected for overcoming his disability in such a positive way - would not want that image to be tarnished by admitting he killed Reeva in a rage (if that's what he did, and many of us do think that). A lot of his testimony focused on how 'losing' Reeva had impacted on him (the smell of the blood, the nightmares, the having to put his life on hold to attend the trial etc) making it seem as if he was the real victim, and not the woman he shot dead.
I can see for someone like him, admitting the truth (if the truth is murder) is not an option. He's not been an honest or likeable person in the past, and certainly not someone who seems to have a conscience about anything. Look how he tried to blame everyone but himself at the trial. Many many threads ago we had a list of all the people he'd blamed - and it was long. He's a cowardly little weasel with no compassion for anyone but himself.
I can see for someone like him, admitting the truth (if the truth is murder) is not an option. He's not been an honest or likeable person in the past, and certainly not someone who seems to have a conscience about anything. Look how he tried to blame everyone but himself at the trial. Many many threads ago we had a list of all the people he'd blamed - and it was long. He's a cowardly little weasel with no compassion for anyone but himself.
ApplesInMyBra
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Sorry, but I think gefangenis = prison.
Listened to it again and Nel could have said one of two things:
"Gevangene is" (Prisoner is)
OR
"Gevangenis" (Prison)
So yup, good catch, FromGermany!
Colin de France
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....right now is a dodgy moment for Pistorius.....having seen the way the appeal went he could up and run ........
One of the things I really wish we could know but never will would be Barry Roux's unvarnished truth about the case from his perspective. I can't imagine that the Pistorius family is easy to deal with, particularly Uncle Arnold, so I can picture many heated meetings in chambers, especially after events such as Roger Dixon's testimony being torn apart. I can almost hear Uncle A's anger at the money he is spending for an expert like that and Roux's response of 'I can only work with your nephew's far fetched story'. It may all have been tea and civility but I prefer the idea of recriminations and hard truths!
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bbm = I wish it would.
Colin de France
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....or do himself in ......
soozieqtips
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And dear old Masipa brushed all that under the carpet claiming all relationships have their ups and downs. Reeva and OP were a relatively new couple, and yet he was already picking on her, scaring her, treating her badly in public, moaning about her hair, her dress, chewing gum, spending too long talking to a waiter, her accent, getting jealous, having tantrums etc.
Anyone who knows anything about domestic abuse recognises this as emotional abuse. There's just no other way to describe it. He was possessive and controlling and manipulative. Even after he killed Reeva, he was trying to control the situation. Phone disappears from the crime scene and gets wiped, and Reeva's bag gets removed from the crime scene by Aimee (after OP obviously looked in it!).
We still don't all the details of the meeting OP had on that day when Reeva was trying to comfort him. If he was already in a mood when he got home, it wouldn't have taken much to tip him over the edge. Unfortunately for him, his invisible intruder tale wasn't taken at face value, and he's been held to account - something alien to him.
You are right. I was being too diplomatic. He's an A-grade jerk.
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If OP minutes/seconds before arriving at home had called his on-and-off-Ex "baby shoes" (and as we know, he did), then he was psychologically already in defensive attitude towards Reeva. One more important reason for his bad mood as soon as he walked in the door. IMO and experienced by myself (of course NOT with OP).
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Dutch neighbours in the past ... :blushing:
Judge Chris Greenland tweeted:
"Checkmated; Roux SC displayed the most incredible intestinal & testicular fortitude I have ever seen on the part of Counsel"
"#ReevaSteenkamp to me it is dolus directus, i.e, INTENTION NOT FORESEABILITY!!!"
"Checkmated; Roux SC displayed the most incredible intestinal & testicular fortitude I have ever seen on the part of Counsel"
"#ReevaSteenkamp to me it is dolus directus, i.e, INTENTION NOT FORESEABILITY!!!"
Something that once again would be his choice to do, just like he chose to arm himself and fire at a closed door that he knew someone was behind. Neither of which any of us had/s any control over and can only deal with the aftermath. If he truly was going to do that, the moment would have been when he not only still had his gun(still loaded with ammo) and was confronted with the fact that he'd just killed RS and was about to be caught but instead he chose to hammer into everyone that it wasn't his fault... it was RS's because he thought she was an intruder/burglar.
soozieqtips
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To the athlete’s supporters, the prosecuting authority’s appeal smacks of a desperate attempt to see a disgraced superstar convicted of murder. They argue that chief prosecutor Gerrie Nel is so hell-bent on seeing the athlete rot in jail, he would do anything to have Masipa’s judgement overturned.
But the decision to appeal is far more nuanced: it was a crucial step to clarify aspects of the law, to create a precedent beyond the theatrics of such a big case that has gripped the world.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/04/oscar-pistorius-appeal-south-african-law
I have noticed OP supporters accusing Nel of doing this out of spite - and what's surprising (or not) is that the BIB is what it's really all about - and the supporters don't seem to care much about this. Suggesting Nel's motives are unethical while disregarding Masipa's flawed reasoning which appears to have set up a scenario where we can all legitimately kill someone (without ever having laid eyes on the attacker) and claim anxiety made us do it is very strange indeed.
ETA - not to mention that possession of ammunition apparently doesn't mean intent to possess so long as it belongs to your estranged father who you haven't seen for several years, but who happens to have a key to your house and your safe to store his ammo.
But the decision to appeal is far more nuanced: it was a crucial step to clarify aspects of the law, to create a precedent beyond the theatrics of such a big case that has gripped the world.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/04/oscar-pistorius-appeal-south-african-law
I have noticed OP supporters accusing Nel of doing this out of spite - and what's surprising (or not) is that the BIB is what it's really all about - and the supporters don't seem to care much about this. Suggesting Nel's motives are unethical while disregarding Masipa's flawed reasoning which appears to have set up a scenario where we can all legitimately kill someone (without ever having laid eyes on the attacker) and claim anxiety made us do it is very strange indeed.
ETA - not to mention that possession of ammunition apparently doesn't mean intent to possess so long as it belongs to your estranged father who you haven't seen for several years, but who happens to have a key to your house and your safe to store his ammo.
soozieqtips
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BIB - and he said if only she'd spoken out from the toilet! Not only did he blame just about everyone else in court, he heaped a little of that blame on Reeva.
"For those who did watch proceedings live on television, it was immediately obvious that the SCA is a completely different arena to the countrys magistrates courts or even the High Court. It carries with it far more gravitas, the seats are plusher, the leather more polished, the wood gleams more and the argument are more astute. The Judges are more combative, interrupting and querying, pushing and prodding, dancing and journeying along with the counsel.
It is brain *advertiser censored* for lawyers...
...One of the core foundations of South Africas constitutional democracy is that the law must not only be done, but it must also be seen to be done. On Tuesday, the law was done at the very highest level in the country by astute minds who engaged with vexed, complex issues. There can be little doubt about that. But crucially, the law was also seen to be done. It was broadcast live on television for the public to watch in full and having witnessed the court in action, we can be assured of the sanctity of the rule of law in our country."
http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2015-11-04-op-ed-dolus-eventualis-day/#.Vjp7Frci7IV
It is brain *advertiser censored* for lawyers...
...One of the core foundations of South Africas constitutional democracy is that the law must not only be done, but it must also be seen to be done. On Tuesday, the law was done at the very highest level in the country by astute minds who engaged with vexed, complex issues. There can be little doubt about that. But crucially, the law was also seen to be done. It was broadcast live on television for the public to watch in full and having witnessed the court in action, we can be assured of the sanctity of the rule of law in our country."
http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2015-11-04-op-ed-dolus-eventualis-day/#.Vjp7Frci7IV
Nel has actually made this argument - just in a different way.
Where you plead self defence you effectively admit the intention to kill part because you intentionally deployed lethal force for the precise purpose of stopping the attacker.
The question is JUSTIFICATION NOT INTENTION AND NOT FORESEABILITY!!!
The intention (either DD or DE) is implicitly conceded in the defence
As Grant argues - DE (or DD) is just not relevant to the question of PPD
And as Nel submitted on appeal - it should not be possible for the defence to plead self defence, but alternately plead lack of intention
They are mutually destructive defences
AND ALL OF THAT goes back to the fact that OP chickened out of his brief and couldn't manage to say he intentionally shot in self defence.
So the Court needed to either say "hey its obvious you shot to kill - lets talk self defence" OR should say "you haven't come up to brief on self defence sorry"
The illogic that Greenland points out exists precisely because the Court accepted OPs evidence contradicting his own defence, and then constructed him a new defence
atthelake
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:floorlaugh: at the term *brain *advertiser censored** for lawyers . It was that also for those who of us who were up in the middle of the night watching.
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