Oscar Pistorius - Discussion Thread #65~ the appeal~

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Maybe, but even so that would still count as premeditation wouldn't it? Being so angry that you indulge in that chain of events is no excuse. I understand what you are saying in your view of what happened, but that would involve him being so irrationally angry that he completely lost touch with reality. He knew what his ammo was capable of doing. Also, why did he keep firing after the first shot which in all likelihood would have caused her to scream in such a way as to make him aware the bullet had hit her? If his plan was just to get the door open, surely a bloodcurdling scream should have knocked him back into the reality of what he was doing.
....not pre-meditation as he didn't intend to kill her......i agree with the irrationally angry that sums it up pretty well......i think he is someone who takes risk's plus an over inflated ego i think when he fired at the door he may well have had in the back of his mind that he was taking a huge risk but he did it anyway as his anger had the better of him....
 
....not pre-meditation as he didn't intend to kill her......i agree with the irrationally angry that sums it up pretty well......i think he is someone who takes risk's plus an over inflated ego i think when he fired at the door he may well have had in the back of his mind that he was taking a huge risk but he did it anyway as his anger had the better of him....

BBM - This pic seems to say otherwise.
http://s1275.photobucket.com/user/Uther3/media/Pistorius Trial/6t1ul3_zps81d873fa.jpg.html

OPtrajectory.jpg
 
Yes, although I interpret this comment as Judge Greenland indicating that Nel should have been bold and gone for Directus on the basis that, if you fire four black talons into a confined space, it's more than just a possibility that you're going to kill the person behind the door.

Regarding OP going against the brief, this is a distinct possibility. However, his difficulty was that he would have been made aware by his legal team that he didn't satisfy the three stage test for PPD, which, is, no doubt, why he sought to wriggle out of responsibility by claiming that his actions were involuntary. What choice did he have but to obfuscate in the hope that something stuck?

If you remember, the double tap scenario advanced by Roux was knocked firmly on the head by Mangena, which made it even harder for OP to claim PPD:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/oscar-pistorius/10708569/Oscar-Pistorius-trial-Shots-fired-at-Reeva-Steenkamp-gave-her-time-to-scream.html


'Barry Roux, Pistorius's barrister, suggested to Captain Mangena that the four shots had been issued as two "double-taps", implying there was little time for any reaction from the victim.


"It was four in quick succession. That is the version of the accused, two double-taps," he said.

Captain Mangena said there was enough time between the shots for Steenkamp to be knocked from a standing position facing the door to being slumped on top of the magazine rack.

"Look at the wounds sustained by the deceased," he said. "If it's two double taps, then all the wounds would be in the same position. There wouldn't be any time for her to change position in that instance. It's impossible." '



It would have been very interesting indeed to have been a fly on the wall during the client conference following that debacle...:panic:

Ballistics of Double Taps

BIB I don't think it is impossible and here is why.

[video=youtube;surS33GHDt4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=surS33GHDt4"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=surS33GHDt4[/video]

The above is a video of someone shooting double taps under controlled conditions. The part of interest begins at about 22 seconds in. The shooter fires (in this case 3) double taps.

For anyone not familiar with double taps they seem really fast and they are!

In this video the space between the two shots of each double tap is around 0.225 seconds. The sequence of the first 4 shots from shot 1 to shot 4 is around 0.875 seconds. (If you want to prove it to yourself you can just slow the video down 4x and stopwatch the times then divide the times by 4 )

Mangena implies that the shots would have landed too close together and therefore double taps could not have been fired. We do not know exactly how Reeva fell but we do know that her hip wound made her immediately unstable very much like your leg might go from under you when on ice - gravity immediately takes over.

That being a reasonable assumption how far does an object fall from rest just under gravity in the time between the 1st and 2nd and the 1st and 4th shots.

This is pretty easy to work out using a formula you can Google for yourself:

d = 0.5 x g x t2

Where:
d is the distance fallen from rest in metres
g is acceleration due to gravity (9.8m/s/s)
t2 is the time taken for the object to fall from rest in seconds


(For anyone not up to speed on the physics the mass or weight of the object is not needed as if you eliminate air resistance all bodies accelerate in free fall at the same rate of 9.8 metres per second every second)

So the distance (d) fallen from rest between the first two shots (0.225 seconds) is calculated from:

d = 0.5 x 9.8 x (0.225 x 0.225)

d = 0.25 metres or 25 cm

The distance fallen from rest between the 1st and 4th shots in the double tap sequence is:

d = 0.5 x 9.8 x (0.875 x 0.875)

d = 3.75 metres.

So to summarize given the speed of double taps in the video Reeva would have had time to fall around 25 cm between 1 and 2 and 3.75 metres between 1 and 4 if she was unhindered.

Clearly there was ample time from the hip to the head shot as even if she fell from fully standing to fully laying down that would only have been her height which was considerably less than 3.75 metres.

I would suggest that even if she did not just immediately crumple there is still enough leeway to account for a reasonably possible fall from shot 1 to 4. The shots seem very fast but it may be surprising to some how quickly a person may collapse.

It must also be born in mind that the double taps in the video were fired quickly under ideal circumstances.

There remains the issue of how the second shot could have missed as she may only have fallen around 25cm in order to avoid the second bullet.

There would not have been enough time to fall out of the way just straight vertically but a reasonable scenario would be that her unstable hip would have caused her to collapse in a scissor type motion where her legs initially moved one way and her upper body, being heavier, pulling down in the other direction towards the toilet. This would have allowed a gap for bullet 2 to pass before the other shots hit.
 
Which one is Cassidy again? I tend to agree with the poster (WilliamMunter I think) who suggested an argument stemming from his phone call with ex Jenna AKA 'babyshoes'. A long chat with an ex on Valentine's Day is maybe not the best way to kick off the night. Then there was her meeting up with her ex (the rugby player) that day or the one before (?). So add OP's bad meeting and the evidence of tensions in what should have been the 'everything is wonderful' stage of a new relationship and there are quite a few factors there that could have led to an argument. I also think that RS was a smart woman and was probably starting to realise that this guy was not the charmer she probably first thought he was. BTW, it might just be my cynicism but I find 'babyshoes' a kind of puke inducing nickname for a grown woman, similar to the `no, your'e smoochy' Seinfeld episode.

Didn't OP also have the dentist that day, or was it the day before... add some tooth pain to wanting some private time in the tub after reminiscing with his first love and then having your current less malleable new gf hanging around writing a speech about domestic violence and wondering if she was going to use him as an example re her msgs... plus how dare she give him sweets to taunt him. There was also the financial stuff going on re the new ordered car, guns and apt. Yea, there were a number of factors giving rise to a temper tantrum. That still doesn't excuse what he did, all it may have done imo, was perhaps make someone(Masipa) perhaps more sympathetic re the circumstances, the poor boy was under such stress dontcha know... after all, he couldn't possibly have meant to kill her, he even said he didn't. :/
 
I have only just got to read this article - that someone posted way back- think I must be temporarily legalled- out.! ( See , can't even string a sentence together....)

Anyway if MR Jitty and Sherbert are still around, I would appreciate your opinions on the article
.

http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/opin...out-intention-to-act-unlawfully/#.Vjshr67hA6j

........if you have the time.

Anyone else who feels up to it too, of course....:)

Spent far too long reading all the legal principles in August for me to dive back into it...

(PS read this one too,an easy read, linked by someone here again, apologise if I am repeating links. This says what we have all been saying here for soooo long. )
http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2015-11-04-op-ed-dolus-eventualis-day/#.Vjsg_67hA6i
 
I wonder if they quarrelled over Cassidy Taylor-Memmory? If, as I suspect, OP was in a mood because his meeting hadn't gone well, Reeva would have been sympathetic, I'm sure, up to a point. However the subject of women's empowerment was very much at the forefront of her mind that night. Did she gradually become weary of his complaining and his unwillingness to accept any blame, leading her finally to speak up and give him a piece of her mind on the subject? I know I would have. :)

I agree with this as being part of the cause for the bad feeling that evening.

way way back in the mists of earlier threads, based on the cell tower location pings, plus the texts,social media photos of estate agents PR pages, you name it. (!).... we collectively came to a plausible view that OP had been to meet with his lawyers that afternoon ( amongst other errands) and had an unsatisfying meeting because Taylor Memmory was not going to settle and wanted to proceed to court.
Secondly in one of J13/NVDLeek books some very credible suggestions were made that bad feeling between him & Reeva was caused by the contract discussions coupled with OP's notion that RS would be part of his forthcoming travel and PR schedules. ....BUT in reality she was not going to accompany him as she had other projects pencilled in based on being elsewhere (her PR company's comments were used ) .

3.... then add in as per Fossil recent phone data research - his mysterious connections in the small hours may have been discovered by Reeva......

Lots to row about potentially.....
 
I have only just got to read this article - that someone posted way back- think I must be temporarily legalled- out.! ( See , can't even string a sentence together....)

Anyway if MR Jitty and Sherbert are still around, I would appreciate your opinions on the article
.

http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/opin...out-intention-to-act-unlawfully/#.Vjshr67hA6j

........if you have the time.

Anyone else who feels up to it too, of course....:)

Spent far too long reading all the legal principles in August for me to dive back into it...

(PS read this one too,an easy read, linked by someone here again, apologise if I am repeating links. This says what we have all been saying here for soooo long. )
http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2015-11-04-op-ed-dolus-eventualis-day/#.Vjsg_67hA6i

...thanks ....looks like DE for me.....
 
Ballistics of Double Taps

BIB I don't think it is impossible and here is why.

[video=youtube;surS33GHDt4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=surS33GHDt4"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=surS33GHDt4[/video]

The above is a video of someone shooting double taps under controlled conditions. The part of interest begins at about 22 seconds in. The shooter fires (in this case 3) double taps.

For anyone not familiar with double taps they seem really fast and they are!

In this video the space between the two shots of each double tap is around 0.225 seconds. The sequence of the first 4 shots from shot 1 to shot 4 is around 0.875 seconds. (If you want to prove it to yourself you can just slow the video down and stopwatch the times)

Mangena implies that the shots would have landed too close together and therefore double taps could not have been fired. We do not know exactly how Reeva fell but we do know that her hip wound made her immediately unstable very much like your leg might go from under you when on ice - gravity immediately takes over.

That being a reasonable assumption how far does an object fall from rest just under gravity in the time between the 1st and 2nd and the 1st and 4th shots.

This is pretty easy to work out using a formula you can Google for yourself:

d = 0.5 x g x t2

Where:
d is the distance fallen from rest in metres
g is acceleration due to gravity (9.8m/s/s)
t2 is the time taken for the object to fall from rest in seconds


(For anyone not up to speed on the physics the mass or weight of the object is not needed as if you eliminate air resistance all bodies accelerate in free fall at the same rate of 9.8 metres per second every second)

So the distance (d) fallen from rest between the first two shots (0.225 seconds) is calculated from:

d = 0.5 x 9.8 x (0.225 x 0.225)

d = 0.25 metres or 25 cm

The distance fallen from rest between the 1st and 4th shots in the double tap sequence is:

d = 0.5 x 9.8 x (0.875 x 0.875)

d = 3.75 metres.

So to summarize given the speed of double taps in the video Reeva would have had time to fall around 25 cm between 1 and 2 and 3.75 metres between 1 and 4 if she was unhindered.

Clearly there was ample time from the hip to the head shot as even if she fell from fully standing to fully laying down that would only have been her height which was considerably less than 3.75 metres.

I would suggest that even if she did not just immediately crumple there is still enough leeway to account for a reasonably possible fall from shot 1 to 4. The shots seem very fast but it may be surprising to some how quickly a person may collapse.

It must also be born in mind that the double taps in the video were fired quickly under ideal circumstances.

There remains the issue of how the second shot could have missed as she may only have fallen around 25cm in order to avoid the second bullet.

There would not have been enough time to fall out of the way just straight vertically but a reasonable scenario would be that her unstable hip would have caused her to collapse in a scissor type motion where her legs initially moved one way and her upper body, being heavier, pulling down in the other direction towards the toilet. This would have allowed a gap for bullet 2 to pass before the other shots hit.

Thank you that was interesting BUT did not OP say he did not fire double taps (after Roux had claimed that was what OP said had happened) or am I misremembering? I cannot bear to go through the trial again to find it. Also the reported gunshot sounds were 1...........2...3...4 were they not? That would exclude double taps.

I have been trying to fit a top down view of RS imposed onto Mr Fossil's trajectories. I have had to guess the shoulder width and head width but head width is normally within a known small range for an adult female and looking at RS photos, at most her shoulder width is 3 x head width, although that does not allow for any photographic anomalies. It is difficult and can only be achieved by accepting that Reeva must have twisted when she collapsed in order for her not to have been hit by the bullet (B) which ricocheted, though there is disagreement between Woolmorans and Mangena about the order in which the bullets were fired. Also it does not help that Mangena is unsure of the order of bullets C and D.

I found this newspaper report about the double taps. I hope it will suffice.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/27070096

Pistorius trial: Key questions for the defence



  • Does it matter that Barry Roux introduced the notion that Mr Pistorius fired his four shots in two quick "double-tap" bursts, but subsequently the athlete said he had fired all four "in quick succession"? Are we splitting hairs or does this go to the heart of the defence's case?

Here it is mentioned again:-


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ar-Pistorius-murder-trial-as-it-happened.html

11.43 Nel is asking about the shots that he fired on the night Reeva died. He says it was four shots, not two double taps. Roux had said that it was two double taps to the police ballistics expert, and Nel asks why he would say that if it was three shots
 
...thanks ....looks like DE for me.....

It made me giggle to myself Colin, that Taitz ( in that article I just linked to ), on a personal note, thinks the event unfolded somewhat like your view.

Anyway the main thrust of that article is about complexities of DE so I am hoping someone can simplify it for me as I was getting flummoxed for reasons given before.
 
It made me giggle to myself Colin, that Taitz ( in that article I just linked to ), on a personal note, thinks the event unfolded somewhat like your view.

Anyway the main thrust of that article is about complexities of DE so I am hoping someone can simplify it for me as I was getting flummoxed for reasons given before.

....at the end of the day it's just a difference of opinion i used to think that it was murder at the beginning but that didn't sit right somehow.....anyway, we'll see how things play out.....
 
Thank you that was interesting BUT did not OP say he did not fire double taps (after Roux had claimed that was what OP said had happened) or am I misremembering? I cannot bear to go through the trial again to find it. Also the reported gunshot sounds were 1...........2...3...4 were they not? That would exclude double taps.

I have been trying to fit a top down view of RS imposed onto Mr Fossil's trajectories. I have had to guess the shoulder width and head width but head width is normally within a known small range for an adult female and looking at RS photos, at most her shoulder width is 3 x head width, although that does not allow for any photographic anomalies. It is difficult and can only be achieved by accepting that Reeva must have twisted when she collapsed in order for her not to have been hit by the bullet (B) which ricocheted and the bullet which hit her arm, though there is disagreement between Woolmorans and Mangena about the order in which the bullets were fired. Also it does not help that Mangena is unsure of the order of bullets C and D.

I found this newspaper report about the double taps. I hope it will suffice.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/27070096

Pistorius trial: Key questions for the defence



  • Does it matter that Barry Roux introduced the notion that Mr Pistorius fired his four shots in two quick "double-tap" bursts, but subsequently the athlete said he had fired all four "in quick succession"? Are we splitting hairs or does this go to the heart of the defence's case?

Here it is mentioned again:-


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ar-Pistorius-murder-trial-as-it-happened.html

11.43 Nel is asking about the shots that he fired on the night Reeva died. He says it was four shots, not two double taps. Roux had said that it was two double taps to the police ballistics expert, and Nel asks why he would say that if it was three shots

The main point of my post was to show that (at least on the ballistic evidence I have been able to find) Mangena's contention that it could not have been double taps was wrong.

This may mean nothing more than that.

I thought Mangena came across well and I have not questioned his evidence other than his ruling out of double taps which I never thought was safe.
 
DE is murder.
...taken from Cottonweavers link ......"Dolus eventualis, on the other hand, is a different type of intention which, also, will suffice for a conviction of murder, provided the other elements of the crime are proved. Dolus eventualis is where one foresees a risk of something happening, and flouts that risk, and it ends up happening." EOQ.....and that without doubt encompasses my opinion of what happened and if that does turn out to be murder, then so be it.....what concerns me is getting to the truth.....
 
The main point of my post was to show that (at least on the ballistic evidence I have been able to find) Mangena's contention that it could not have been double taps was wrong.

This may mean nothing more than that.

I thought Mangena came across well and I have not questioned his evidence other than his ruling out of double taps which I never thought was safe.

Seeing the video was interesting.

I would also be grateful to hear JJ & Fossil's view on this simply because they have spent so much time on this recently on their blog HOWEVER I appreciate they may not be able to comment until the matter is settled (without re-trial) by SCA
 
none of us will ever get the truth Colin, but if "we" get some justice from SCA, that's enough for me.
Let OP live with his self- destructive secrets....and his family too if they are aware.
 
none of us will ever get the truth Colin, but if "we" get some justice from SCA, that's enough for me.
Let OP live with his self- destructive secrets....and his family too if they are aware.

....well i disagree there.....i would like to see a re-trial with all (big all) the evidence covered in detail....look at what Mr Fossil and JJ have put on their blog, he has to be put into a corner and forced to lie and then everything will crumble around him, following that he will have to give a coherent version......
 
....well i disagree there.....i would like to see a re-trial with all (big all) the evidence covered in detail....look at what Mr Fossil and JJ have put on their blog, he has to be put into a corner and forced to lie and then everything will crumble around him, following that he will have to give a coherent version......

I know what you mean, but I just can't see a re-trial happening since we first started seriously discussing this in August. There is no complete "closure" in the way you want it, but it will be enough for me to get DE and upgraded sentence.
 
I know what you mean, but I just can't see a re-trial happening since we first started seriously discussing this in August. There is no complete "closure" in the way you want it, but it will be enough for me to get DE and upgraded sentence.

...we won't get closure if there was intent but we might if there wasn't......as i suggested before send him down for pre-meditated murder and then let him dig his way back out......maybe that way we'll get to the truth ....in otherwords it's going to be hard for him to accept 20 years or more when really he should of got less......
 
I agree with this as being part of the cause for the bad feeling that evening.

way way back in the mists of earlier threads, based on the cell tower location pings, plus the texts,social media photos of estate agents PR pages, you name it. (!).... we collectively came to a plausible view that OP had been to meet with his lawyers that afternoon ( amongst other errands) and had an unsatisfying meeting because Taylor Memmory was not going to settle and wanted to proceed to court.
Secondly in one of J13/NVDLeek books some very credible suggestions were made that bad feeling between him & Reeva was caused by the contract discussions coupled with OP's notion that RS would be part of his forthcoming travel and PR schedules. ....BUT in reality she was not going to accompany him as she had other projects pencilled in based on being elsewhere (her PR company's comments were used ) .

3.... then add in as per Fossil recent phone data research - his mysterious connections in the small hours may have been discovered by Reeva......

Lots to row about potentially.....

regarding 'lots to row about'.

it was clearly easy for them to stay together at op's house. and they had done this multiple times in the lead up to 13th feb. (according to op) reeva had stayed there on the night of the twelfth.

watching the whatsapp message section it occurred to me how the two of them appeared to be dancing around staying together on that pre-valentine's evening. the night together didn't seem to be planned with much enthusiasm. why was this? was there already some distance between them?

reeva was talking about going to the cinema with her friend sam.
op was talking about going for dinner with divaris. only brought up by divaris as an option on the day. not pre-planned.

reeva saying she would be at op house but away by 3
reeva saying maybe he would prefer to be with his brother and/or sister. family time. i.e. not her.

reeva then saying she would be away by 6. 'please stay and do whatever it is you were going to do' [doesn't seem like she is wanting to hang around to see him]


op saying that she can stay if she likes. i.e. a non-committal invitation.
(was reeva hoping he would ask her to stay? after all she already had the framed photographic present with her, which she must have pre-planned and pre-packed.)

lots of excuses not to be together, for a couple leading up to their first valentine's morning together.
almost like eventually agreeing to be together on that feb 13th night was a last resort.


also, does anyone know, who the 'friend' was, that op met for coffee at 10ish on the morning of the 13th?

op also refers to a 'mutual friend' that he and divaris were planning to have dinner with. 'the boys having dinner'... is it confirmed who this was?
 
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