Oscar Pistorius - Discussion Thread #67 *Appeal Verdict*

[Estelle]

Welcome to Australia, lithgow1. I am sure you will like it here with great weather and no fog!

 

[JudgeJudi]

From a very well-written article by Mandy Wiener.

Yesterday, with the Supreme Court of Appeal handing down its unanimous decision in the matter, order was restored to the universe. Justice won out in the end. Without fail, the overwhelming consensus is that surely a man who arms himself with a loaded weapon and black talon ammunition, walks towards danger and shoots four times through a locked door into a tiny cubicle, must have an intention to kill. How could it be logical that the court did not reach the same conclusion?

In a clear, concise judgment, Justice Leach restored the legal fraternity’s understanding of dolus eventualis which was so clouded in the wake of Masipa’s ruling. It restored public faith in the justice system that was partially eroded by Masipa’s ruling, more so because the SCA’s decision was unanimous and there were no dissenting voices on the bench.

The SCA must also be credited for articulating itself in a way that was so accessible to the general public. Leach’s use of the analogy of a bomb exploding to explain that the identity of the individual behind the door was irrelevant, was a master stroke. It left little doubt in anyone’s mind as to the legal definition of intent.

http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/arti...stice-was-done-the-system-works/#.VmFPQeS4Y1q

 

[Sherbert]

I think he will be cursing Masipa

Had she written the judgement properly - this never would have been appealed.

Yes, I've been thinking about this.

But, even if she hadn't misdirected herself on DE, she would have needed to word her verdict so as to spell out the factual basis for his genuine belief that an attack was imminent. She would also have needed to spell out either why a rational person would have thought they were entitled to shoot or, at the very least, why OP should be exempted from reasonableness. Doable, I suppose, but quite a tall order, IMO.

 

[bessie]

Scroll and roll, folks. We're all entitled to disagree. State your opinion politely, and move on.

 

[mrjitty]

Yes, I've been thinking about this.

But, even if she hadn't misdirected herself on DE, she would have needed to word her verdict so as to spell out the factual basis for his genuine belief that an attack was imminent. She would also have needed to spell out either why a rational person would have thought they were entitled to shoot or, at the very least, why OP should be exempted from reasonableness. Doable, I suppose, but quite a tall order, IMO.

I think she needed to explicitly state

"I hold the defence of PPD is made out" ...

1. The accused was genuinely in fear for his life
2. The accused mistakenly but actually believed the attack had commenced
3. The force was reasonable and not excessive because the accused mistakenly believed a dangerous intruder was attacking
- the accused is disabled and could not retreat
- the accused mistakenly thought his life was in danger

As you say - these are pretty ridiculous findings - but had she spelt all this out - it would have been much harder to challenge

 

[Susza]

BIB, I think this is a really good example. I have absolutely nothing against Reeva, I never have. What's frustrating to read over and over is how some forum posters feel they personally know Reeva through this trial and believe she is angelic in nature. The reality is that none of us know what her true traits are.

You're example of Reeva in the dock is perfect. If that was the case, most people would be saying poor Oscar and writing warm glowing comments about him. How could Reeva talk such a life, a guy who did so much for disabled kids, a man who put South Africa on the map, etc etc. We'd see the same bleeding hearts. The reality that we have come to learn is far different and this guy is a hot head.

I'm sure Reeva had her own skeletons that she had in her closet, that's the point I am trying to make. She's another human being.

Reeva, Silvia, Rachel or Sarah, Tom, Finn or Aliosha - that's not the point IMO. Model, carpenter, teacher, streetcleaner, laywer - I don't care.
It's the victim that matters.
All IMO

 

[mrjitty]

Other than the very first interview she gave after the MURDER Phelps has been an advocate for Pistorius, aided and abetted by Robyn Curnow. She even defended Dixon as a good witness! She was also heavily criticised for her comments in the Bateman/Maughan (?) book. Well Kelly, five SCA judges do not agree with your informed opinions, which having heard those opinions does not surprise me in the least.

It's not the first famous case where you get hangers on who are more focussed on promoting themselves than on justice

 

[Giles]

David Dadic ‏@DavidDadic
Let me ask you this - what kind of bloody hero is this man ? --> @JamesGrantZA

James Grant ‏@JamesGrantZA
@DavidDadic No way. I was just crazy enough not to treat Seekoei as Gospel, and Nel & Johnson were crazy enough to listen to me.

 

[mrjitty]

My fav moment:

"If you'll allow me justice leach I've marked them"

"bear with me Justice Leach"

"if you'll just bear with me"

Papers rustling... / flipping frantically

The finest legal pawn

 

[Colin de France]

It's not the first famous case where you get hangers on who are more focussed on promoting themselves than on justice

.....well said .....

 

[JudgeJudi]

Barry Bateman ‏@barrybateman · 2m2 minutes ago
#OscarPistorius EWN understands the state and defence are in talks to decide on a date for Pistorius to report to court to apply for bail.

Barry Bateman ‏@barrybateman · 2m2 minutes ago
#OscarPistorius it’s understood that the bail application will probably take place early next week. BB

David Dadic ‏@DavidDadic · 3m3 minutes ago
David Dadic Retweeted Barry Bateman
And generally bail after a murder conviction is harder to get - greater risk of flight

 

[JudgeJudi]

I'm wondering if this will go back to the High Court - ? Masipa - or will the SCA decide. Two very different outcomes possible.

 

[Truthy]

There is an amazing analysis of the case in terms of the cultural history of SA and where the previous judge went very wrong. It is a very interesting read plus comments, had to share.

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v37/n22/jacqueline-rose/bantu-in-the-bathroom

 

[soozieqtips]

Barry Bateman ‏@barrybateman · 2m2 minutes ago
#OscarPistorius EWN understands the state and defence are in talks to decide on a date for Pistorius to report to court to apply for bail.

Barry Bateman ‏@barrybateman · 2m2 minutes ago
#OscarPistorius it’s understood that the bail application will probably take place early next week. BB

David Dadic ‏@DavidDadic · 3m3 minutes ago
David Dadic Retweeted Barry Bateman
And generally bail after a murder conviction is harder to get - greater risk of flight

BIB - I guess that's the case for anyone not famous. What's the betting OP will get bail and then have most of the restrictions lifted?

 

[Cherwell]

Barry Bateman ‏@barrybateman · 2m2 minutes ago
#OscarPistorius EWN understands the state and defence are in talks to decide on a date for Pistorius to report to court to apply for bail.

Barry Bateman ‏@barrybateman · 2m2 minutes ago
#OscarPistorius it’s understood that the bail application will probably take place early next week. BB

David Dadic ‏@DavidDadic · 3m3 minutes ago
David Dadic Retweeted Barry Bateman
And generally bail after a murder conviction is harder to get - greater risk of flight

I'm confused - why should he get bail again? He's a convicted murderer FFS. Lock him up!

I sent Zwiebel a PM the day following the Paris attacks and asked if she was safe. I never got a reply. I'm concerned about her welfare too.

Doesn't Zwiebel live in Germany? Not sure why people are worried that she may have been affected by the incidents in Paris, but perhaps I've missed something.

 

[Colin de France]

BIB - I guess that's the case for anyone not famous. What's the betting OP will get bail and then have most of the restrictions lifted?

.....does anyone else find it strange that a person convicted of reduced murder be sat at home free ? ......

 

[Estelle]

From Gina Myers:

Speaking on the ruling, Gina told The Juice exclusively that "nothing will bring Reeva back".

"Nothing can justify that she is gone. But I can finally say that Reeva has made this a big day for South Africa and the world. For women, and of course, for her. I hope this has brought so much needed peace for the Steenkamp family and all her friends. I know that we can all speak her name with love and honour. And forever."

http://www.channel24.co.za/The-Juice/exclusive-reevas-best-friend-talks-after-oscar-ruling-20151203

 

[mrjitty]

Does anyone one else have trouble with the ridiculous amount of adware/bloatware this site is pulling on every page load?

 

[Deleted member 102539]

http://www.biznews.com/undictated/2...y-human-tragedy-of-shakespearean-proportions/

The young democracy that is South Africa makes a lot of mistakes. But on the important issues, it somehow possesses a knack of muddling through to the right conclusion. Here is everything you need to see and read to fully understand South Africa’s the trial of the decade. The judge’s full verdict is at the bottom of the page.
...............

“This case involves a human tragedy of Shakespearean proportions,” Judge Eric Leach said as he read out the ruling.

 

[Estelle]

Does anyone one else have trouble with the ridiculous amount of adware/bloatware this site is pulling on every page load?

Yes. There are six ads on this page for me.