Oscar Pistorius - Discussion Thread #67 *Appeal Verdict*

[Mr Fossil]

I wondered more what he was getting at with his comment

I agree with your post which I already read.

He didn't venture into any of the maths of the bullet trajectories but I suspect he knew perfectly well what had most probably happened. The issue is that it doesn't prove anything because it's all about possibilities and probabilities and the more precise you become about something (as we have done in our post) the more you leave yourself open to easy criticism which might have undermined (his) more credible evidence. In this instance, just a fractional change in the rehanging of the door can change every calculation and hence trajectory. Funnily enough, this doesn't matter but the explanation would become a lot more complex if you had to explain why in court.*

* For those that are curious: two bullets travel through the larger panel (A, B) and two through the smaller panel (C, D). This means that the relative trajectories of bullets which travel through the same panel remain meaningful regardless of what the actual trajectories are and regardless of how the door is hung or panels repositioned. Apply any trajectory to where Oscar says he stood and, allowing that bullet A must be the first bullet fired, you are left with a trajectory for bullet B that implies that in all probability he must have moved forwards. However, it's still a minefield because there are still deflections through the door to be factored in and, in all but one case, these weren't measured.

 

[Mr Fossil]

And the implied time gap for Reeva to have been in the position she was in when the last bullet hit her, cowering, from standing upright behind the door.

Yes, the implied time gap allows her to move and bullet B to miss her (bullet B aligns perfectly with mark E on the toilet wall with no deflection required).

 

[Colin de France]

I may be completely wrong about this , but i felt there were more grounds for a re-trial at this appeal(despite nobody wanting it and nobody asking for it) , than a different conviction. For as legally sound as DE is. "In the interest of justice " , IMO , would have been to say: Let's look at this again because mistakes were made.

....exactly.......even from looking through this site it's clear evidence wasn't pushed hard enough, i agree that a re-trial is preferable not only for a new look but as a validation moral and ethical for the sentence, something which feels to be lacking at the moment ......

 

[Hope4More]

True, but, imo, disparaging and misleading remarks were made as to Reeva's motives for being with OP.

I haven't followed or read in this thread for quite a long time, just read a few pages here after the reversal, and don't have a clue about posters' previous comments. My reply was just to that one post, in which I saw nothing disparaging being said about the victim.

I wrote in support because I can't think of anything that would shut up (most ) posters faster than being told they weren't being sympathetic to a victim or a victim's family, and didn't see that was the case here at all.:hanging:

 

[Mr Fossil]

Pistorius’s lawyers tight-lipped over possible bail application
http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/N...ipped-over-possible-bail-application-20151204

Doesn't say anything (we don't know already)

 

[Interested Bystander]

Good. So if they have a warrant for his arrest then they can actually do something if he tries anything untoward....like going for a stroll towards the nearest airport. Hope they keep an eye on him.

Love Chris Mangena, so glad he was vindicated by this. Will never forget his looks of complete WTF? aimed at Roux when he warbling on about double shots and whatnot. Oh, and Mandy Weiner's funny tweet while he was on the stand....."Sorry, ladies, I spy a wedding ring on Capt. Mangena's finger" <-------- Gutting.

Men of the Moment in no particular order.

 

[Mr Fossil]

It's being reported on twitter that the NPA denies issuing a warrant for OP's arrest. Can't verify this. Major news channels (Bloomberg, Reuters, Sky etc.) say an arrest warrant has been issued but the source is always eNCA.

 

[patCee]

'I never doubted my evidence' - News24 speaks to Oscar ballistics expert
http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/i-never-doubted-my-evidence-news24-speaks-to-oscar-ballistics-expert-20151204

Interview with Mangena.

So it is clear from Mangena's promotion, and demands upon his expertise, that others in the criminal justice departments across the country recognised the value of his work in this case. A crying shame that Masipa chose to ignore it. I would say that it must be extremely rare for a judge to ignore evidence of that sort. It's that type of evidence that is particularly important to decide a case. I do feel that for some reason Masipa looked at any way she could to minimise Pistorius' guilt, rather than plain old incompetence, or merely a mistake.

 

[patCee]

'I don’t want to go back to jail. It’s terrible, so disgusting you can’t imagine’: What 'haunted' Oscar Pistorius told friend who ‘betrayed’ him before murder conviction
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...just-days-convicted-murder.html#ixzz3tMIX8zHf

Interview with Kevin Lerena

Hmm, difficult dynamics there. I'm sure Pistorius feels depressed at tasting freedom and then the likelihood it will be snatched away again. There's also the issue of preparing a case for an appeal against a further prison sentence. Would depression/suicidal thoughts be enough though? Call me cynical.

 

[geevee]

Moondamp_Roses &#8207;@Moondamp_Roses · 20m20 minutes ago
Oscar #Pistorius Arrest Warrant Issued - Reports http://news.sky.com/story/1600083/oscar-pistorius-arrest-warrant-issued-reports …

The Tribune &#8207;@thetribunechd · 1m1 minute ago
#Newsalert: Arrest warrant issued for #Pistorius: Local media- AFP

 

[Deleted member 102539]

'I don&#8217;t want to go back to jail. It&#8217;s terrible, so disgusting you can&#8217;t imagine&#8217;: What 'haunted' Oscar Pistorius told friend who &#8216;betrayed&#8217; him before murder conviction
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...just-days-convicted-murder.html#ixzz3tMIX8zHf

Interview with Kevin Lerena

&#8216;Oscar told me how let down he had felt because I had testified against him,&#8217; said Lerena, South Africa&#8217;s cruiserweight champion.
&#8216;I explained that I didn&#8217;t have any choice, that I had been subpoenaed to give evidence and that it had been hard for me to do it. But he wouldn&#8217;t accept it. He insisted that I could have refused to do it. - Typically Oscar, nothing learned in prison. Me, me, me.

-.-.-.-

'He&#8217;s obviously kept up with everyone&#8217;s news while he was inside, and it must be painful to know that everyone else is getting on with their lives.'
Aha. Laptop, phone, all with Internet access? Or only visitors?
-.-.-.-

'No-one knows what happened that night Reeva was killed. I asked Oscar outright what had gone on. He told me "God knows what really happened that night". He said he didn&#8217;t feel he had to justify his actions to anyone as he and God knew the true story.
Pretty easy to say, "good" idea.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...just-days-convicted-murder.html#ixzz3tMsLF1Nq

I honestly have to admit, I feel sorry for him a little bit, when I'm reading the interview. But he has to learn of his guilt and of prison being punishment for murdering his girlfriend Reeva. Will he ever understand?

 

[Colin de France]

.......i would of liked to of seen a direct connection between the evidence and the sentence...

 

[soozieqtips]

Hmm, difficult dynamics there. I'm sure Pistorius feels depressed at tasting freedom and then the likelihood it will be snatched away again. There's also the issue of preparing a case for an appeal against a further prison sentence. Would depression/suicidal thoughts be enough though? Call me cynical.

You and me both, but feeling suicidal can't be a reason for skipping jail. Anyway, loads of prisoners have been on suicide watch, so if his family is that worried, I'm sure they'll make sure he's taken care of. He did the crime, now he has to man up and do the time. If he didn't want to go to prison, he shouldn't have shot 4 times at an invisible intruder. No one wants to go to prison, and OP's whining does nothing for him whatsoever.

 

[Zuri]

OT: I sent messages to both Beach and Tricia and asked if they could email or call Zweibel to do a "welfare check". I will let you all know if I hear anything back. Thanks to all of you for caring too.

 

[Colin de France]

.....i wonder if it's safe to say that if he is innocent then he will appeal......?....a test.

 

[CriLondon]

I think you will find many of us are with you there.

Before the judgement day of the original trial, for me it was either DD or DE, and I would have been disappointed if it would turn out to be DE. The ridiculous turn of events that followed has left us in a situation where we are feeling `happy' with DE.
On the evidences presented in the case, the testimonies etc, to me it is a clear case of DD. You would be hard pressed to get a clearer case of DD, IMO. However, because of the legal restrictions on the appeal process where `factual findings' by the trial court can not be questioned, it would have been too risky to travel that path. I still feel it could have been possible, because those factual findings involve application of legal principles and logical reasoning, where Masipa erred badly. But it would not have been as crystal clear or unanimous, and it would have given Roux more ground to put up a fight. Like him or not, he is good, he is very very good. He took it this far despite OP messing up in every possible way during his cross. So it was perhaps natural for the Prosecution team to traverse a relatively safer route this time.

BBM1 - I remember we had a poll last year , asking whether we thought the PT had proven DD. I had voted DE at the time as i wasn't sure how the Court would apply/consider the circumstantial evidence pointing towards DD. I thought at the time there was clear evidence for DE , at the very least , despite how strongly i perceived this to be DD.

Regarding BBM3 , for as skilled as Roux is , it only went this far , IMO , because of BBM2.

I feel the SCA did what they had to do to deal with the questions raised by the state, but because Cpt. Mangena's evidence has been brought into the judgement as a basis for the murder verdict, it has left more questions unanswered. Mangena's evidence shows it was a murder with direct intent, a pause in the shots and an adjustment of aim or a move closer. The SCA could not take this to its logical conclusion, because the state did not argue that Masipa had also failed to apply the test of DD correctly, when it really should have done, that has always been my assertion.

The consequence of the SCA rejecting PPD, quite rightly too, is that it leaves OP without a truthful version, and not only that, without a motive for murder. He did not demonstrate that there was any threat to his life, or that he genuinely thought there was such a threat; he didn't even admit that he directed his shots at the person he thought was a danger, which must be a requirement for this defence.

That is quite some problem for any plea of mitigation. Out goes his vulnerability. Out goes the accidental firing and the no time to think/reactive shooting. He has been found to have been untruthful and to have withheld any true account of the incident. With criminal intent, the options are that he either attacked a non-threatening person hiding, or he shot knowing Reeva was in there and that he may kill her. I think the court has a duty to make an inference of the latter in sentencing, with the proviso that he hasn't admitted it and has been dishonest. But it will be an aggravating feature for sentencing, the fact that he hasn't yet given an acceptable explanation.

BBM - Can he or will he come to the table late with a confession and a plea for mercy?

Yeah , I agree , the SCA were bound to only address points of law and went as far as they could , trying to rectify a "confusing and flawed" judgement. I'm sure the State went for the "safe" route to try to obtain murder via DE, but at various points the SCA seemed more interested in DD ,because of what the record in front of them was showing. But if the State doesn't seek it (and cannot) then what can the SCA do? I wonder if the SCA itself can refer the matter to the CC (to make provisions for State/Defence to appeal on factual findings) , in a case where the correct verdict (as appears from the record) is not what neither counsel is seeking?

....exactly.......even from looking through this site it's clear evidence wasn't pushed hard enough, i agree that a re-trial is preferable not only for a new look but as a validation moral and ethical for the sentence, something which feels to be lacking at the moment ......

It's clear for a multitude of reasons that nobody wants a re-trial , i wonder if the SCA SHOULD want that? and BBM - Somewhat lacking I agree , it feels to me that the legal outcome is "only" a set of accepted actions and as such form only part of the truth... it still feels ...incomplete.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

UTC Law Student(s) on Twitter:

 

[patCee]

Sky news is just reporting the NPA have issued a warrant for Pistorius' arrest.

 

[DarKHawK]

Sky news is just reporting the NPA have issued a warrant for Pistorius' arrest.

But they will only enforce it on Tue next week at bail hearing.
Sounds like special treatment to me and a good risk of him doing a runner over the weekend.

 

[akp]

Regarding BBM3 , for as skilled as Roux is , it only went this far , IMO , because of BBM2.

RSBM.

Agree completely. But Roux played an active part in inducing that error. He managed to confuse some of the witnesses at various stages, and of course Masipa for the entire length of the trial. When the facts were stacked so heavily against his client, that was commendable, I thought. Of course, I never liked him during the trial; but looking back, I can see that it was his job, that is what a defence lawyer is supposed to do. And he did it a damn good job. Specially after OP let him down so badly.