Oscar Pistorius - Discussion Thread #68 *Appeal Verdict*

[cottonweaver]

I don't think it was ever said that he had a frozen shoulder...just a shoulder injury of some kind.

But, if it was, then it wouldn't necessarily stop him raising his arms....I can. The only thing I can't do is reach my arm behind my back properly.

The only point I was making is that a sore shoulder is not made better or worse if you shift over a few inches to the other side of the bed! It makes absolutely no difference at all and I don't believe him when he says that's what happened.

Reeva slept on the left but he couldn't admit that because it would then be impossible to claim he didn't see she wasn't there when he got the gun....the holster of which was found in that side.

Realiy, nothing about his bullcrap story makes the slightest sense, does it?!

On yours and Ochre Blues's point about the "stuffed shoulder", (right shoulder), he was having physio according to his testimony but as Ochre points out, was the extent of that injury ever verified. I very much doubt it. We know that they could not even do the blood tests in a timely fashion, after he murdered her. The subsequent tests done to measure his heights and abilities with Mangena present came much later.

We have all said on here, in the past, how come he could carry Reeva without mentioning the shoulder as an issue? As far as the sleeping side he answered under Nel:
"I had a shoulder injury so I could not place weight on my right shoulder." This affliction was "off and on" and it was not a recent injury.


S he can shoulder charge toilet doors, shoulder charge bedroom doors, use his shoulders for leverage to try and prise the toilet door open, get Reeva out of the bathroom, carry her downstairs and never once actually mentions any right shoulder discomfort. (He shoots with his right hand at "shoulder level" he says.He charges doors with his cocked gun still in his right hand.)

The pain would surely have transferred to the right shoulder even when charging with the left.

 

[Paul Connelly]

Thank you FG. That was a very interesting list and accompanying article. I immediately thought of Sam Taylor when I read that list, as well as Reeva. Remember how he locked her up in the house one night and left her there alone without food until he returned in the morning. I was just going to post a reply re that but I see Paul has posted that he's read the Trish's book, and we too know what Sam went through with OP. She's one very lucky girl. Do you and Paul remember how she had to hide his gun from him one night? It's chilling to think about it now.

Hi JJ, I do indeed remember it and you're right she's very lucky and it is chilling. Can't think of a better word to describe it.

When you look at all his behaviour through a prism of sociopathy almost everything makes sense. Lemonmoose, along with Mr Jitty, yourself and others too numerous to name have done great work debunking his ludicrous version. For me the sociopathy is starring us in the face and it's worthy of the same systematic analysis as his version. It just makes utter sense when you consider what we know.

I'd love for you and all the other guys to apply your in depth knowledge of the case and proven sleuthing skills to the known facts and see how that changes the overall perception of Pistorius.

I think now the SCA has convicted him of murder we are within our rights to explore what motivated him.

Mr Jitty is right about the appeal to the CC being a Hail Mary pass. Only a deluded sociopath would be arrogant enough to believe the SCA wasn't the end. Even this is indicative of sociopathy. Taken in isolation it wouldn't mean a thing but if you consider it in light of Nell's "mosaic" of circumstantial evidence it's compelling.

 

[Tortoise]

Roux: At any time did you intend to kill reeva
Oscar: I did not intend to kill Reeva or anybody else Mi'Lady.

http://live.nydailynews.com/Event/Oscar_Pistorius_Murder_Trial_for_Reeva_Steenkamps_Death?Page=49


Oscar: It was accidental. My understanding is I didn't intent to shoot the intruder. I got a fright from someone inside the toilet.
Nel: You never fired at the intruders intentionally, the gun went off unintentionally?
Oscar: I didn't have much time to think. I dealt with a set of circumstances.
Nel: you're giving evidence. Did you shoot intentionally?
Oscar: I shot out of fear.
Nel: Because of fear you shot at them.
Oscar: I didn't intend to shoot at them, I didnt intend to kill someone. When I heard the noise from the toilet, I thought someone was coming out to kill me. I didn't have time to think.

Nel: Did your gun accidentally go off or did you fire at the intruders
Oscar: My firearm went off, it was an accident it happened. I fired my firearm before I could think

Oscar: At the time I fired the shot, I didn't have time to think. I didn't intend to shoot at anyone. I can't say I didn't. I never fired shots purposely into a door.

http://live.nydailynews.com/Event/Oscar_Pistorius_Murder_Trial_for_Reeva_Steenkamps_Death?Page=50


Nel: Did you fire deliberately, still accidentally.
Oscar: I'm still that I fired the gun out of fear. I didn't mean to pull the trigger so in that sense it was an accident.
Nel: I never meant to pull the trigger. You never wanted to shoot at intruders coming out of the bathroom.
Oscar: I didn't have time to think. I didn't want to shoot at anyone.
Nel: Whatever happened never caused you to shoot - it happened accidentally.
Oscar: The noise came from the toilet, caused me to pull the trigger. I didn't have time to think about it, I heard a noise, and I discharged my firearm.

http://live.nydailynews.com/Event/Oscar_Pistorius_Murder_Trial_for_Reeva_Steenkamps_Death?Page=52


Oscar: I didn't intend to shoot, when I heard a noise, I didn't have time to think. I fired my weapon. It was an accident.

http://live.nydailynews.com/Event/Oscar_Pistorius_Murder_Trial_for_Reeva_Steenkamps_Death?Page=53


Nel: If you did not want to shoot the person, what did you want to do.
Oscar: My intention was to make the person flee.
Nel: Nothing else.
Oscar: correct
Nel: And when you got into the bathroom there was nobody there.
Oscar: correct

http://live.nydailynews.com/Event/Oscar_Pistorius_Murder_Trial_for_Reeva_Steenkamps_Death?Page=55


Nel: But isn't your defence that you thought you were in danger and wanted to shoot the person in the bathroom.
Oscar: No
Nel: Is it your defence that you fired at the perceived attacker.
Oscar: I fired at the door

Nel: Is it your defence that you fired at the perceived attacker.
Oscar: No.
Nel: Then what is your defence
Oscar: I heard the noise and I didn't have time to interpret it and I fired my firearm out of fear.

Nel: I don't understand your defence you can't have two
Oscar: I understand
Nel: The way I understand the defence is that you acted in putitive self defence. that you fired at the attacker to ward off an attack.
Oscar: I didn't have time to think. I fired my firearm.
Nel: you defence has changed from putitive self defence to involuntary action.
Oscar: I don't understand the law.

http://live.nydailynews.com/Event/Oscar_Pistorius_Murder_Trial_for_Reeva_Steenkamps_Death?Page=56


Nel: IF your version now is that you fired because you were scared? Why only four, why not empty the magazine? Why not fire at the window. Did you not think there was someone on the window.
Oscar: My firearm was pointed at the door.
Nel: Did you not think of firing into the shower
Oscar: If I fired into the shower it could ricochet and hit me.
Nel: But firing into the door you should know it could hit someone.
Oscar: I didn't intend to fire my gun.

Nel: you thought the intuder was coming out, and they would have to turned the door handle. For them to get out the door they have to use the handle, and you could see it.
Oscar: I guess I didn't focus on the handle, I focused on the door as a whole.
Nel: Did you not fire at the handle.
Oscar: I can see that is not the case
Nel: If you wanted to fire at the intruder, where would you have fired.
Oscar: Probably at chest height, probably on the right.
Nel: So we can exclude that you fired to protect yourself.Did you fire to shoot an intruder.
Oscar: No I fired because I had a fright.
Nel: If there was an intruder in the toilet, would it have been an accident.
Oscar: I never intended to shoot anyone, yes.

http://live.nydailynews.com/Event/Oscar_Pistorius_Murder_Trial_for_Reeva_Steenkamps_Death?Page=57

This needs to be re-posted at the top of every page so it can never be forgotten. His own testimony, which defeats anything Masipa dreamed up to try and save his arse.

Every time someone posts that he was in fear for his life, I think I will just have to remind them of this list of the many own goals he scored.

 

[Trotterly]

On yours and Ochre Blues's point about the "stuffed shoulder", (right shoulder), he was having physio according to his testimony but as Ochre points out, was the extent of that injury ever verified. I very much doubt it. We know that they could not even do the blood tests in a timely fashion, after he murdered her. The subsequent tests done to measure his heights and abilities with Mangena present came much later.

We have all said on here, in the past, how come he could carry Reeva without mentioning the shoulder as an issue? As far as the sleeping side he answered under Nel:
"I had a shoulder injury so I could not place weight on my right shoulder." This affliction was "off and on" and it was not a recent injury.


S he can shoulder charge toilet doors, shoulder charge bedroom doors, use his shoulders for leverage to try and prise the toilet door open, get Reeva out of the bathroom, carry her downstairs and never once actually mentions any right shoulder discomfort. (He shoots with his right hand at "shoulder level" he says.He charges doors with his cocked gun still in his right hand.)

The pain would surely have transferred to the right shoulder even when charging with the left.

I suspect the adrenalin of the situation probably meant that he didn't feel the pain from the shoulder injury.

 

[Paul Connelly]

This needs to be re-posted at the top of every page so it can never be forgotten. His own testimony, which defeats anything Masipa dreamed up to try and save his arse.

Every time someone posts that he was in fear for his life, I think I will just have to remind them of this list of the many own goals he scored.

That's it in a nutshell. Out of his own mouth he's condemned himself. Like Mr Jitty says it's a Hail Mary, a last desperate plea of desperation. He'd be better praying to the Patron Saint of lost causes IMO!

 

[Paul Connelly]

I suspect the adrenalin of the situation probably meant that he didn't feel the pain from the shoulder injury.

Not adrenaline, rather dopamine and endorphins. He was high on both, euphoric at his absolute power. Not a drop of adrelaline was present I'd wager.

 

[Tortoise]

Hi JJ, I do indeed remember it and you're right she's very lucky and it is chilling. Can't think of a better word to describe it.

When you look at all his behaviour through a prism of sociopathy almost everything makes sense. Lemonmoose, along with Mr Jitty, yourself and others too numerous to name have done great work debunking his ludicrous version. For me the sociopathy is starring us in the face and it's worthy of the same systematic analysis as his version. It just makes utter sense when you consider what we know.

I'd love for you and all the other guys to apply your in depth knowledge of the case and proven sleuthing skills to the known facts and see how that changes the overall perception of Pistorius.

I think now the SCA has convicted him of murder we are within our rights to explore what motivated him.

Mr Jitty is right about the appeal to the CC being a Hail Mary pass. Only a deluded sociopath would be arrogant enough to believe the SCA wasn't the end. Even this is indicative of sociopathy. Taken in isolation it wouldn't mean a thing but if you consider it in light of Nell's "mosaic" of circumstantial evidence it's compelling.

I'm dipping in and out of the thread at the moment - having half a mind on organising Christmas, so excuse the rather woolly-minded questions here if you will -

What would this look like? The facts of the night, the facts of the trial, or the evidence of their whatsapps and other events such as Tasha's and such like? We are limited to a great degree by not having the actual facts of the night, excepting of course things like the after-photographs and the ballistics evidence.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Paul, Thank you for your excellent posts. It's wonderful to have another member who brings some sense of sanity back to this forum in spite of ...

The list posted by From Germany reminded me of the words expressed by:

Cecil Myers -As protective of Reeva as he was of his own two daughters, told Oscar, “If you want this girl, you need to give her some space.” But he never did. “He was here all the time,” said Cecil Myers of Oscar’s early courtship. “Then she started going to him, and we never saw him again.”

Gina Myers - “He became overwhelming”. Reeva returned home after the fight with OP on the day of the Darren Fresco's engagement party. OP telephoned her incessantly to the point where Reeva asked Gina to answer her phone.

I won't go through the list as it's pointless at this stage. The big house awaits him and I hope it's for a long time.

 

[Cherwell]

He will not have any problems staying out of trouble prior to April. He will still continue his behaviour on friends, family and acquaintances such as his parole officer. Charming him into allowing him out after his curfew. Little victories such as this will feed his need to control. His aim though will be to win at the CC. He will be deluded enough to be utterly convinced he will win. That is what motivates him. This is a huge game that he will enjoy until the day he wins. Then he will become bored and seek out another victim or cause.

One thing in all this cheers me.
He has already had to spend time in prison. :behindbar
So he doesn't "always win". :happydance:

 

[Paul Connelly]

I'm dipping in and out of the thread at the moment - having half a mind on organising Christmas, so excuse the rather woolly-minded questions here if you will -

What would this look like? The facts of the night, the facts of the trial, or the evidence of their whatsapps and other events such as Tasha's and such like? We are limited to a great degree by not having the actual facts of the night, excepting of course things like the after-photographs and the ballistics evidence.

Consider yourself excused! As on who currently has 99% of his mind on Christmas, I totally understand. Isn't it wonderful how despite all the distractions of everyday life we find time to contribute to something we feel so passionate about?

To answer your question, all of the above. Of particular help is collateral, socio-historical, background evidence.

Did he really take acting lessons prior to taking the stand. Now he has been convicted of murder would Janey Allen wish to elaborate on her source and what really happened?

Collating information from biographical books.

Testimony from those who knew him like the Myers family. The Taylor's and the girl who he settled with out of court following an alleged assault.

Those who he'd made enemies of. One accused him of being drunk and dancing with his gun. He threatened more still.

The Claim to own SANDF and piss on Zuma.

His behaviour with his Olympic roommate.

His history of litigious behaviour. His win at all costs mentality. Wanting to beat able bodied athletes and then suing the SA athletics authorities when they dropped him for not being good enough.

His twisting of the real biblical hermeneutical meaning on his tattoo.

The list goes on and on...

All of these add to the mosaic in painting a fuller picture of his true nature and can be used to assess whether he does indeed have a sociopathic personality disorder.

 

[cottonweaver]

I suspect the adrenalin of the situation probably meant that he didn't feel the pain from the shoulder injury.

Yes people's pain and weakness is occasionally over ridden by the physiological effects of adrenalin but in this case he only remembers the shoulder might be an issue (when shoulder charging a door) when Nel picks him up on it.
He also forgets to mention it in relation being so weak that he he cannot pick up Reeva initially so phones Stander. (No adrenalin with the panic there then.) So the theory doesn't apply, unless you want to make up a justification for him.

the shoulder in HIS words was an "on-off" affliction - rather like his attitude to the truth.

 

[Paul Connelly]

One thing in all this cheers me.
He has already had to spend time in prison. :behindbar
So he doesn't "always win". :happydance:

Well we know that don't we but in his deluded mind the race is not yet run. Did you note the comment after the SCA verdict? How he was delighted that even though convicted of dolus eventualis he could rest knowing he could never be found guilty of deliberately murdering Reeva. Classic sociopathic behaviour. The serial killer Ted Bundy was the same. Even in the face of murder he had to put a spin on it so he came out the moral victor.

He will hopefully soon return to his rightful place but even then he'll try and claim victory. As ridiculous as it sounds, mark my words, it's exactly what will happen.

 

[sleuth-d-]

Yes people's pain and weakness is occasionally over ridden by the physiological effects of adrenalin but in this case he only remembers the shoulder might be an issue (when shoulder charging a door) when Nel picks him up on it.
He also forgets to mention it in relation being so weak that he he cannot pick up Reeva initially so phones Stander. (No adrenalin with the panic there then.) So the theory doesn't apply, unless you want to make up a justification for him.

the shoulder in HIS words was an "on-off" affliction - rather like his attitude to the truth.

'on-off' in itself was an oft-used affliction.
see: lights. fans. balcony. interior alarm. duvet. ability/inability on stumps…

 

[sleuth-d-]

Yes people's pain and weakness is occasionally over ridden by the physiological effects of adrenalin but in this case he only remembers the shoulder might be an issue (when shoulder charging a door) when Nel picks him up on it.
He also forgets to mention it in relation being so weak that he he cannot pick up Reeva initially so phones Stander. (No adrenalin with the panic there then.) So the theory doesn't apply, unless you want to make up a justification for him.

the shoulder in HIS words was an "on-off" affliction - rather like his attitude to the truth.

and re: pain, weakness and adrenaline production.

adrenaline is also produced in ultimate thrill-seeking situations.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/203790-what-happens-during-an-adrenaline-rush/

"threatening or exciting"
imagine the adrenaline produced in a 'threatening and exciting' situation.

 

[sleuth-d-]

re: ‘profile of a sociopath’/'sociopathic behaviour'/'sociopathic relationships', introduced in posts above

taking on board the long list of behaviours, and putting them together with the possibility of heritability… raises a couple of questions – for instance with thick as thieves siblings:

how do two sociopaths interact/coexist?

competition? one-upmanship? tit-for-tat behaviour?

is it possible to have a major/minor sociopathic relationship? i.e. can a sociopath ever be controlled [by another sociopath]?




http://articles.latimes.com/1993-07-31/local/me-18731_1_menendez-brothers

[lol @ therapist; interviewing them together!]

 

[Paul Connelly]

re: ‘profile of a sociopath’/'sociopathic behaviour'/'sociopathic relationships', introduced in posts above

taking on board the long list of behaviours, and putting them together with the possibility of heritability… raises a couple of questions – for instance with thick as thieves siblings:

how do two sociopaths interact/coexist?

competition? one-upmanship? tit-for-tat behaviour?

is it possible to have a major/minor sociopathic relationship? i.e. can a sociopath ever be controlled [by another sociopath]?




http://articles.latimes.com/1993-07-31/local/me-18731_1_menendez-brothers

[lol @ therapist; interviewing them together!]

One high functioning sociopath could in theory try to control another. However, they are like sharks and as predators will naturally find so called empaths and apaths to prey on. These people are the perfect prey and they will enjoy victimising these groups far more than fellow sociopaths.

With their own families they tend to be intelligent enough to disguise their true nature. The less intelligent ones are more likely to indulge in risky, criminal behaviours and not care if their families are privy to this.

It really is a broad spectrum and whilst all share common traits, their individual behaviour differs and manifests itself in different ways.

 

[Mamadoos]

The holster was between the wall and the bedside cabinet...so it must have been thrown there - which could have happened from anywhere in the room.

When you have a partner with you, you generally get them to put ointment on sore shoulders or backs because it hurts to reach round...so it's equally likely that the tube would be on Reeva's side.

And how do you explain her slippers? Not placed near the bag, but right up against the top of the bed and pointing in it's direction. Precisely where you would leave them just as you are getting into bed.

I have no idea what side they slept on, neither do you. And guess what? I don't much care. I think this desperate microanalysing of every single thing to try and find something, anything, that might (if you squint and look sideways) just possibly support his "version" is boring and pointless.

Step back and look at the bigger picture. Always a sensible thing to do.

Four educated, rational, honest people with no axe to grind remain haunted by hearing a woman screaming horrifically and "out of her mind with terror". They also all report hearing a man shouting at the same time.

They heard this at almost exactly the same time as a young woman is shot to death while hiding in a toilet at her hot-headed, gun enthusiast boyfriends house.

How amazingly coincidental it is that Pistorius managed to make the EXACT same sounds Reeva would make if she knew she was about to be shot. How AMAZING, huh?

What bad, bad luck for him that while bravely confronting an intruder he unfortunately managed to make it sound exactly like a woman was about to be murdered - which, remarkably, was exactly what was happening. This is on account of his undreamed of talent for being able to sound, not only like a woman, but like a man and a woman at the same time!

How unfortunate for him that his healthy girlfriend just so happened, on that very night, to have some kind of digestive mishap so that food which would ordinarily have been on it's way to her bowel by 3am was in fact still sitting recognisable in her stomach.

If that wasn't enough, poor "Mr Pistorius" had a bunch of psychic, dishonest policemen first on the scene who not only managed to change everything around in the room but had enough spooky foresight to do it in such a way as to make him look like a liar on the witness stand.

Oh dear. The universe was conspiring against him that night to create the perfect storm of coincidences, huh?

Or, you know...MAYBE, just maybe.....those witnesses heard a woman scream because a woman was screaming? Occam's Razor and all that.

Look, you believe him if you want to - someone has to, I suppose. But don't kid yourself that the mind gymnastics you're engaging in are producing even remotely convincing explanations because they are not. Your "explanations" ask more questions than they answer.

Pistorius is a lying murderer - there's simply no other explanation that makes sense of all the evidence. If you're expecting someone here to come up with proof, then you're in for a long wait. And, frankly, if the evidence that does exist hasn't convinced you then nothing will.

Just simply brilliant!

 

[soozieqtips]

An article about racism in the SA judiciary and a bit about Masipa's original judgment and the SCA's 'praise' of how she managed the case:

http://www.herald.co.zw/what-pistorius-trials-tell-us-about-racism-in-sas-judiciary/

 

[mhiforme]

Well we know that don't we but in his deluded mind the race is not yet run. Did you note the comment after the SCA verdict? How he was delighted that even though convicted of dolus eventualis he could rest knowing he could never be found guilty of deliberately murdering Reeva. Classic sociopathic behaviour. The serial killer Ted Bundy was the same. Even in the face of murder he had to put a spin on it so he came out the moral victor.

He will hopefully soon return to his rightful place but even then he'll try and claim victory. As ridiculous as it sounds, mark my words, it's exactly what will happen.

BIB, that's not quite correct, he was delighted when he was found guilty of CH, not murder and at a party with Roux, he said "I don't give a ***** about the sentence. I'm not a murderer".

If making the statement highlighted in bold above made him "classic sociopathic", what would not making the statement mean now?

 

[mhiforme]

He also didn't suffer from any anxiety disorder, but that hasn't stopped you Pistorians claiming he was so out of his mind with anxiety that night he accidentally murdered someone.

Your comment was meant for Noisy Fan but since when does anyone who disagrees with you automatically become a Pistorian? Surely Noisy Fan is trying to have his own questions answered or ensuring that every avenue is explored to ensure that OP doesn't have to face mob justice.

Even if he didn't have a medically diagnosed GAD, one doesn't have to have an anxiety disorder to feel an elevated level of anxiousness.