Oscar Pistorius - Discussion Thread #68 *Appeal Verdict*

[LemonMousse]

Thank you for your post! Excellent essay!
Re-reading it - point D) struck me afresh.... If OP did indeed have a frozen shoulder (& has this been verified at all?) - he would have found it extremely difficult, if not impossible to raise both arms into the shooter's position. So, methinks, add it to the long list of his lies.

I don't think it was ever said that he had a frozen shoulder...just a shoulder injury of some kind.

But, if it was, then it wouldn't necessarily stop him raising his arms....I can. The only thing I can't do is reach my arm behind my back properly.

The only point I was making is that a sore shoulder is not made better or worse if you shift over a few inches to the other side of the bed! It makes absolutely no difference at all and I don't believe him when he says that's what happened.

Reeva slept on the left but he couldn't admit that because it would then be impossible to claim he didn't see she wasn't there when he got the gun....the holster of which was found in that side.

Realiy, nothing about his bullcrap story makes the slightest sense, does it?!

 

[Noisy Fan]

I don't think it was ever said that he had a frozen shoulder...just a shoulder injury of some kind.

But, if it was, then it wouldn't necessarily stop him raising his arms....I can. The only thing I can't do is reach my arm behind my back properly.

The only point I was making is that a sore shoulder is not made better or worse if you shift over a few inches to the other side of the bed! It makes absolutely no difference at all and I don't believe him when he says that's what happened.

Reeva slept on the left but he couldn't admit that because it would then be impossible to claim he didn't see she wasn't there when he got the gun....the holster of which was found in that side.

Realiy, nothing about his bullcrap story makes the slightest sense, does it?!

He had an injury to his right shoulder. In the initial crime scene photos you can see red athletic tape supporting the injured muscle. In another photo there is a tube of Voltaren Emulgel (used for pain and swelling relief) on the left side night table. The holster for his gun was found on the left side.

So, which side of the bed do you think Oscar slept on?

You do not want to sleep an an inflamed sore shoulder. It hurts enough without adding more pressure to the equation. If he was a side sleeper, Oscar would want to sleep on his healthy left shoulder. If he slept on the right side of the bed he would of been staring out the window all night with his back to Reeva. Sleeping on the left side of the bed (on his left shoulder) he could face Reeva and be more interactive with her.

 

[Noisy Fan]

Hi Tortoise. I agree with almost everything but I think that his disability has never and will never leave him feeling impotent. I think he is a sociopath and he is all about control and imposing his will on his victims. I imagine that somehow Reeva discovered his dark side that had until then only flashed warning signs. I believe the evidence points to her leaving him that night and he could not stand for it. No sociopath ever would.

Fortune was not with Reeva that night because of Oscar's deep love affair with hand guns and particularly destructive rounds of ammunition. In my experience in the UK such partners are usually able to walk away without the sociopath murdering or seriously harming them. Even then though the sociopath will continue to target them and victimise them. It's hard to shake them off without help.

Oscar however, had the perfect means to dominate and instil fear into Reeva. He didn't need to suffer the indignity of her walking out on him. He had his ultimate symbol of power, his beloved handgun and he used it mercilessly as he got high, feeding on the the euphoria of Reeva's primordial screams and pitiful pleading.

In that moment he felt like a God, he'd showed her, she'd never again have the temerity to think she had any say in the matter. He owned her and now he'd ended her.

Since then, he's never quite had such an intense rush. Sure the PR campaign, applying the the acting lessons properly in court, manipulating Masipa and Du Toit, watching Roux humiliate himself on his behalf, all these gave him some reminder of the high he felt the night he taught Reeva who was really in control. But Oscar always wins... He'll bide his time, he can wait because he controls everything. The world is his playground, his personal running track, he is the champion and he's just biding his time so he can beat his personal best and relive once more the adrenaline rush he felt that night.

I honestly don't think Oscar gave a thought to his disability that night. I have little doubt it affects his personality at a subconscious level but he is incapable of feeling impotent. Impotence is the antithesis of what he feels and Reeva will forever be a testimony to that fact.

The score of 45 on ANT indicates Mr. Pistorius does not suffer from an anti-social personality disorder/psychopathy. This is consistant with clinical findings and collateral information.

https://juror13lw.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/scholtz-report.pdf

 

[JudgeJudi]

Profile of a Sociopath

One could be excused for thinking that the following list was written by one of OP’s treating psychs as it describes him perfectly with only a couple of exceptions. The entire article makes fascinating reading.

Behavior of sociopaths.
• Glibness and Superficial Charm
• Manipulative and Conning
They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.
• Grandiose Sense of Self
Feels entitled to certain things as "their right."
• Pathological Lying
Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.
• Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.
• Shallow Emotions
When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.
• Incapacity for Love
• Need for Stimulation
Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal. Promiscuity and gambling are common.
• Callousness/Lack of Empathy
Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them.
• Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others.
• Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency
Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends; aberrant behaviors such as cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc.
• Irresponsibility/Unreliability
Not concerned about wrecking others' lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for acts they obviously committed.
• Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity
Promiscuity, child sexual abuse, rape and sexual acting out of all sorts.
• Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle
Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work ethic but exploits others effectively.
• Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility
Changes their image as needed to avoid prosecution. Changes life story readily.

Other Related Qualities:

1. Contemptuous of those who seek to understand them
2. Does not perceive that anything is wrong with them
3. Authoritarian
4. Secretive
5. Paranoid
6. Only rarely in difficulty with the law, but seeks out situations where their tyrannical behavior will be tolerated, condoned, or admired
7. Conventional appearance
8. Goal of enslavement of their victim(s)
9. Exercises despotic control over every aspect of the victim's life
10. Has an emotional need to justify their crimes and therefore needs their victim's affirmation (respect, gratitude and love)
11. Ultimate goal is the creation of a willing victim
12. Incapable of real human attachment to another
13. Unable to feel remorse or guilt
14. Extreme narcissism and grandiose
15. May state readily that their goal is to rule the world

(The above traits are based on the psychopathy checklists of H. Cleckley and R. Hare)

http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html

 

[LemonMousse]

He had an injury to his right shoulder. In the initial crime scene photos you can see red athletic tape supporting the injured muscle. In another photo there is a tube of Voltaren Emulgel (used for pain and swelling relief) on the left side night table. The holster for his gun was found on the left side.

So, which side of the bed do you think Oscar slept on?

You do not want to sleep an an inflamed sore shoulder. It hurts enough without adding more pressure to the equation. If he was a side sleeper, Oscar would want to sleep on his healthy left shoulder. If he slept on the right side of the bed he would of been staring out the window all night with his back to Reeva. Sleeping on the left side of the bed (on his left shoulder) he could face Reeva and be more interactive with her.

The holster was between the wall and the bedside cabinet...so it must have been thrown there - which could have happened from anywhere in the room.

When you have a partner with you, you generally get them to put ointment on sore shoulders or backs because it hurts to reach round...so it's equally likely that the tube would be on Reeva's side.

And how do you explain her slippers? Not placed near the bag, but right up against the top of the bed and pointing in it's direction. Precisely where you would leave them just as you are getting into bed.

I have no idea what side they slept on, neither do you. And guess what? I don't much care. I think this desperate microanalysing of every single thing to try and find something, anything, that might (if you squint and look sideways) just possibly support his "version" is boring and pointless.

Step back and look at the bigger picture. Always a sensible thing to do.

Four educated, rational, honest people with no axe to grind remain haunted by hearing a woman screaming horrifically and "out of her mind with terror". They also all report hearing a man shouting at the same time.

They heard this at almost exactly the same time as a young woman is shot to death while hiding in a toilet at her hot-headed, gun enthusiast boyfriends house.

How amazingly coincidental it is that Pistorius managed to make the EXACT same sounds Reeva would make if she knew she was about to be shot. How AMAZING, huh?

What bad, bad luck for him that while bravely confronting an intruder he unfortunately managed to make it sound exactly like a woman was about to be murdered - which, remarkably, was exactly what was happening. This is on account of his undreamed of talent for being able to sound, not only like a woman, but like a man and a woman at the same time!

How unfortunate for him that his healthy girlfriend just so happened, on that very night, to have some kind of digestive mishap so that food which would ordinarily have been on it's way to her bowel by 3am was in fact still sitting recognisable in her stomach.

If that wasn't enough, poor "Mr Pistorius" had a bunch of psychic, dishonest policemen first on the scene who not only managed to change everything around in the room but had enough spooky foresight to do it in such a way as to make him look like a liar on the witness stand.

Oh dear. The universe was conspiring against him that night to create the perfect storm of coincidences, huh?

Or, you know...MAYBE, just maybe.....those witnesses heard a woman scream because a woman was screaming? Occam's Razor and all that.

Look, you believe him if you want to - someone has to, I suppose. But don't kid yourself that the mind gymnastics you're engaging in are producing even remotely convincing explanations because they are not. Your "explanations" ask more questions than they answer.

Pistorius is a lying murderer - there's simply no other explanation that makes sense of all the evidence. If you're expecting someone here to come up with proof, then you're in for a long wait. And, frankly, if the evidence that does exist hasn't convinced you then nothing will.

 

[LemonMousse]

The score of 45 on ANT indicates Mr. Pistorius does not suffer from an anti-social personality disorder/psychopathy. This is consistant with clinical findings and collateral information.

https://juror13lw.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/scholtz-report.pdf

He also didn't suffer from any anxiety disorder, but that hasn't stopped you Pistorians claiming he was so out of his mind with anxiety that night he accidentally murdered someone.

 

[Paul Connelly]

Their pathological need to win at all costs means they can indeed be 'useful'. However, the trail of destruction they wreak in doing so offsets any usefulness. They have no redeeming features whatsoever.

 

[cottonweaver]

The score of 45 on ANT indicates Mr. Pistorius does not suffer from an anti-social personality disorder/psychopathy. This is consistant with clinical findings and collateral information.

https://juror13lw.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/scholtz-report.pdf

What is your opinion on the conduct, processes and content of the mental health assessments provided in your link? Have you compared it , like for like with those commissioned in UK, US ?

 

[Paul Connelly]

The score of 45 on ANT indicates Mr. Pistorius does not suffer from an anti-social personality disorder/psychopathy. This is consistant with clinical findings and collateral information.

https://juror13lw.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/scholtz-report.pdf

The score of 45 on ANT indicates Mr. Pistorius does not suffer from an anti-social personality disorder/psychopathy. This is consistant with clinical findings and collateral information.

https://juror13lw.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/scholtz-report.pdf

If you think such a test can diagnose sociopathy you misunderstand the nature of the condition. It is easy to fool such tests with a little coaching which we know he had access to. The questions relating to the sociopathic spectrum would have been a tiny percentage of the overall test. They can easily be defeated. A much broader range of tests and clinical assessment would be needed and these were not done. Everything that we now know of the man is indicative of sociopathy. Nothing of what we know seems to suggest he is not. This is a huge red flag!

 

[Tortoise]

He had an injury to his right shoulder. In the initial crime scene photos you can see red athletic tape supporting the injured muscle. In another photo there is a tube of Voltaren Emulgel (used for pain and swelling relief) on the left side night table. The holster for his gun was found on the left side.

So, which side of the bed do you think Oscar slept on?

You do not want to sleep an an inflamed sore shoulder. It hurts enough without adding more pressure to the equation. If he was a side sleeper, Oscar would want to sleep on his healthy left shoulder. If he slept on the right side of the bed he would of been staring out the window all night with his back to Reeva. Sleeping on the left side of the bed (on his left shoulder) he could face Reeva and be more interactive with her.

Haha. There was no evidence of interaction between them, including the time before they had their hot drinks and took their teeth out.

 

[Tortoise]

The score of 45 on ANT indicates Mr. Pistorius does not suffer from an anti-social personality disorder/psychopathy. This is consistant with clinical findings and collateral information.

https://juror13lw.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/scholtz-report.pdf

If you knew about personality disorders, you would know that they take far longer to diagnose than the time he spent at Weskoppies, and he would not have been volunteering any information about such behaviour traits.

 

[Paul Connelly]

If you knew about personality disorders, you would know that they take far longer to diagnose than the time he spent at Weskoppies, and he would not have been volunteering any information about such behaviour traits.

Exactly Tortoise! That's it in a nutshell. It's a broad spectrum condition and even professionals can get it wrong even with time.

 

[soozieqtips]

If you think such a test can diagnose sociopathy you misunderstand the nature of the condition. It is easy to fool such tests with a little coaching which we know he had access to. The questions relating to the sociopathic spectrum would have been a tiny percentage of the overall test. They can easily be defeated. A much broader range of tests and clinical assessment would be needed and these were not done. Everything that we now know of the man is indicative of sociopathy. Nothing of what we know seems to suggest he is not. This is a huge red flag!

Plus he was allowed to go home every evening instead of staying at the clinic 24/7 for the full 30 days. I can't remember why Masipa decided he should only be a day visitor. Oh yeah. She didn't want to punish him twice? Since OP was allegedly having nightmares, wouldn't it have made sense to keep him in and monitor his night-time behaviour? Was OP's family concerned about what the tests would find if he had to stay 24/7 instead of being allowed to leave at 5pm every day?

 

[Paul Connelly]

Thank you PC - very much enjoying your posts and all other poster's which address this psychological aspect.

I agree with you that Oscar didn't give a thought to his disability that nite. Reason being, imo., is that since childhood,
he has built up a protective defense mechanism to deal with this disability. The "best defense is an offense" a fraidy cat offing verbal abuse or showing off with a gun. Add to that, a rich prestigious family who turned a blind eye because they had already learned that they shouldn't rock the boat.

I don't know, if Oscar has the ability to "bide his time". Do you really think that he'll be able to control himself with house arrest, until April at least?

Otoh.........maybe you're right. Perhaps the reason is that Uncle Arnold is calling the shots now and this is probably the only form of discipline he's ever had. Maybe he's even relieved with it.

He will not have any problems staying out of trouble prior to April. He will still continue his behaviour on friends, family and acquaintances such as his parole officer. Charming him into allowing him out after his curfew. Little victories such as this will feed his need to control. His aim though will be to win at the CC. He will be deluded enough to be utterly convinced he will win. That is what motivates him. This is a huge game that he will enjoy until the day he wins. Then he will become bored and seek out another victim or cause.

People on this forum are so astute in their assessments of pistorius and how he comes across. I fear that as astute as they are if they really knew what goes on in that mans head, it would chill them to the bone.

 

[mrjitty]

Another howler in the 'draft' appeal.

(After submitting that the SCA found his version was that he did not intend to shoot) - "The difficulty with the rejection of my version is that if I did not believe that I discharged the shots because of the perceived danger, and I did not have dolus directus, then why did I shoot?"

1. how is this of great public importance?
2. The SCA already decided that they did not need to have a motive for the murder.
3. You sound like a whining child
4. Whose difficulty is it exactly?
5. That's what you get for putting up two conflicting versions, neither of which was that you fired intentionally, to try and avoid a conviction of intentional murder
6. Masipa did not just reject the accidental shooting, she created a new version which excluded automatic accidental shooting; it was never your version that you positively acted and shot because you feared for your life, it was just no-time-to-think / think-the door-will-open shots, so you can't claim that the SCA left you without a version - you never had Masipa's version at trial.
7. because you are a murderer. off you go to jail.

:jail:

The defence is in Hail Mary country at this level of appeal.

The State had significant errors of law they could point to in the first instance judgement.

The irony is these issues have now become the defences burden, despite benefiting from the intiial fangirl judgement from Masipa

So now, with no "deep legal issue" to run on - they have to throw mud on the wall and hope to get traction somewhere.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

http://datingasociopath.com/2013/03/07/top-15-signs-you-have-been-dating-a-sociopath/

Top 18 signs you have been dating a sociopath!!

1. Charismatic and charming
2. Superficial and glib
3. Lack of connection to their past
4. Huge ego
5. They play victim
6. They want to spend ALL of their time with you – showers you with attention and flattery
7. Sexual charisma and magnetism
8. (missing)
9. They are compulsive pathological liars, and when confronted will do anything to protect the lie
10. Lives like a parasite
11. Comes on strong and moves fast
12. Seems to have so much in common with you, appears a ‘soulmate’ connection
13. Socially isolates you
14. Is very dramatic
15. Lack of life plan and long term goals
16. Immaturity
17. Predatory stare
18. Will always blame someone else – lack of remorse, guilt or shame


Another fascinating pic of OP, describes him in every of the 17 (18) points (much more to read).

 

[Paul Connelly]

Plus he was allowed to go home every evening instead of staying at the clinic 24/7 for the full 30 days. I can't remember why Masipa decided he should only be a day visitor. Oh yeah. She didn't want to punish him twice? Since OP was allegedly having nightmares, wouldn't it have made sense to keep him in and monitor his night-time behaviour? Was OP's family concerned about what the tests would find if he had to stay 24/7 instead of being allowed to leave at 5pm every day?

You're right. The purpose of Weskoppies was primarily to make sure the "GAD" raised by Vorster didn't render him incapable of standing trial due to temporary insanity. That's what they were really looking at. They were never going to get anything else in such a short period. What they did find does not mean he isn't a sociopath. All the anecdotal evidence and our own eyes tell us he most likely is.

 

[Paul Connelly]

http://datingasociopath.com/2013/03/07/top-15-signs-you-have-been-dating-a-sociopath/

Top 18 signs you have been dating a sociopath!!

1. Charismatic and charming
2. Superficial and glib
3. Lack of connection to their past
4. Huge ego
5. They play victim
6. They want to spend ALL of their time with you – showers you with attention and flattery
7. Sexual charisma and magnetism
8. (missing)
9. They are compulsive pathological liars, and when confronted will do anything to protect the lie
10. Lives like a parasite
11. Comes on strong and moves fast
12. Seems to have so much in common with you, appears a ‘soulmate’ connection
13. Socially isolates you
14. Is very dramatic
15. Lack of life plan and long term goals
16. Immaturity
17. Predatory stare
18. Will always blame someone else – lack of remorse, guilt or shame


Another fascinating pic of OP, describes him in every of the 17 (18) points (much more to read).

One of the more revealing "Tells" was in the book Samantha Taylor wrote where she revealed the correspondence that Oscar had written to her. It was an epiphany for me! I read it and recognised all the classic sociopathic signs. Since then I've kept a close eye on his behaviour and mannerisms. He latest appearance in court gave me the same feeling as Sam Taylor's book. So did the revelation of Reeva's texts and his inability to accept wrongdoing in the face of compelling evidence (Tashas). Nothing, I repeat nothing, gives the impression that his behaviour is not sociopathic in nature. He may not be of course but if I was a betting man and my life depended on it...

 

[JudgeJudi]

http://datingasociopath.com/2013/03/07/top-15-signs-you-have-been-dating-a-sociopath/

Top 18 signs you have been dating a sociopath!!

1. Charismatic and charming
2. Superficial and glib
3. Lack of connection to their past
4. Huge ego
5. They play victim
6. They want to spend ALL of their time with you – showers you with attention and flattery
7. Sexual charisma and magnetism
8. (missing)
9. They are compulsive pathological liars, and when confronted will do anything to protect the lie
10. Lives like a parasite
11. Comes on strong and moves fast
12. Seems to have so much in common with you, appears a ‘soulmate’ connection
13. Socially isolates you
14. Is very dramatic
15. Lack of life plan and long term goals
16. Immaturity
17. Predatory stare
18. Will always blame someone else – lack of remorse, guilt or shame


Another fascinating pic of OP, describes him in every of the 17 (18) points (much more to read).

Thank you FG. That was a very interesting list and accompanying article. I immediately thought of Sam Taylor when I read that list, as well as Reeva. Remember how he locked her up in the house one night and left her there alone without food until he returned in the morning. I was just going to post a reply re that but I see Paul has posted that he's read the Trish's book, and we too know what Sam went through with OP. She's one very lucky girl. Do you and Paul remember how she had to hide his gun from him one night? It's chilling to think about it now.

 

[Interested Bystander]

If you knew about personality disorders, you would know that they take far longer to diagnose than the time he spent at Weskoppies, and he would not have been volunteering any information about such behaviour traits.

His family and friends seem to do the same. Only a few very close people were interviewed. Perhaps a family trait? I would expect them to support him but their approach seems to be "get him off at all cost". So much for honesty and integrity. I have always thought they know he is guilty BUT could it be that some of them suffer from a similar disorder and fail to recognise the situation, ie deluded?

Is there a genetic element to PDs? I ask because at one time (but no longer) we had someone with a really bad borderline personality disorder marry into our family and who made everyone's life, including their own, a misery (repeated suicide attempts and wayward behaviour, inability to accept their behaviour was wrong - ever - being only three of many problems). Now I see the same behaviour manifesting in the adult children but am unsure whether it is learned behaviour or a genetic predisposition.

EDIT

I have found an answer to my question:-

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3181941/