Oscar Pistorius - Discussion Thread #68 *Appeal Verdict*

[cottonweaver]

Taking a step back it is surely unrealistic to suppose that CP turns up at what must have been a very distressful crime scene and suddenly thinks ‘I really must remember to find Oscar’s phone to check what needs deleting’ just as unrealistic is it for AP to suddenly start thinking of Reeva’s mother and just how much she would like to have her recently deceased daughter’s handbag. The latter being a most bizarre notion to suddenly pop into someone’s head given she hardly knew Reeva and June even less. Quite illogical, unless of course someone found the time to tell them to remove those specific items. One could suppose it was someone who was having rational thoughts about what ‘incriminating’ items should be removed from the crime scene as quick as possible. Surely not OP as we are lead to believe he was too ‘distraught’ to be thinking clearly…..or was he?

Hi Belgarion,

His lawyer was on the scene and had access to him for several hours whilst he was in a "holding pattern" in the garage, this was pre-arrest , naturally.
There are so many things that happened that night, after the murder, to indicate a whole range of damage limitation to OP on the part of many of his associates and witnesses.
Many of them have been already listed by posters here today.

Clearly certain people on the scene WERE thinking clearly and "taking a step back", incl OP - he was very careful not to speak to the cops about what had happened regardless of the "distressful scene".

 

[Interested Bystander]

...well is he going to appeal or not ...time is moving on ....

They will probably leave it to the last moment. Also, I think I read somewhere that 15 days (I assume working days) was fairly flexible, maybe because the Constitution Court judiciary are on leave at the moment? I cannot remember where I saw/heard this but if I come across it I will post a link.

 

[Tortoise]

RSBM

So, I have a little experience at least in understanding how adrenaline effects you and how young Oscar felt that night when he heard an intruder in his house at 3 in the morning. A young Oscar who scored 70 and needed one more point only to be classified as having a general anxiety disorder.

Bib - Just a small reminder - there is no evidence, apart from his unreliable word, that the intruder version is true. There is a mountain of evidence on the other hand that his version is make believe.

When he was assessed for anxiety he had experienced the trauma of seeing Reeva's head blown apart, was in the middle of his own murder trial, facing the prospect of a life term in prison and having lost his superstar champion status overnight. Enough one might say to give anyone a bit of anxiety, but still not enough for him to register on the actual scale.

The anxiety score was not relevant to the night before his life as he knew it changed forever.

Not only that, but according to his lie, he recounted clear thoughts and memories at each stage of the incident. He didn't know enough about the anxiety experience it seems to be able to weave in a few 'sensory distortions' or dissociation. His only memory lapses seem conveniently to be in relation to how he filled in the delay between shooting Reeva and breaking the door down; in reality, the time he spent terrorising her and then murdering her.

 

[Marfa Lights]

It would have been interesting to see how he wielded the bat in court, if it was overarm swings, or jabbing motions like a hammer. I think with the hits not all being in the same place it must have been swings.

Why couldn't they have asked Oscar to demonstrate his own bat swings??

 

[Tortoise]

Why couldn't they have asked Oscar to demonstrate his own bat swings??

I think they did didn't they?

 

[cottonweaver]

They will probably leave it to the last moment. Also, I think I read somewhere that 15 days (I assume working days) was fairly flexible, maybe because the Constitution Court judiciary are on leave at the moment? I cannot remember where I saw/heard this but if I come across it I will post a link.

Hi IB, Marius de Toit ( ex Public Prosecutor IIRC) said it on his twitter feed - something along lines of "it won't be end of world" if Roux is late with his Appeal submission and he gave a number of reasons he could give.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Hi IB, Marius de Toit ( ex Public Prosecutor IIRC) said it on his twitter feed - something along lines of "it won't be end of world" if Roux is late with his Appeal submission and he gave a number of reasons he could give.

Very many thanks for remembering who it was, CW.

 

[Marfa Lights]

I think they did didn't they?

All I remember was Vermeulen demonstrating. I will have to review on You Tube.

Did they actually have him demonstrate how he struck the door and how fast?

 

[Tortoise]

All I remember was Vermeulen demonstrating. I will have to review on You Tube.

Did they actually have him demonstrate how he struck the door and how fast?

From memory, which could be wrong, they asked him to demonstrate for height purposes without his prostheses on, but not in relation to how fast he hit the door. I seem to remember Nel telling the court for the purposes of the court record, where Pistorius was standing in relation to the door but I can't recall much else about it.

 

[soozieqtips]

Taking a step back it is surely unrealistic to suppose that CP turns up at what must have been a very distressful crime scene and suddenly thinks ‘I really must remember to find Oscar’s phone to check what needs deleting’ just as unrealistic is it for AP to suddenly start thinking of Reeva’s mother and just how much she would like to have her recently deceased daughter’s handbag. The latter being a most bizarre notion to suddenly pop into someone’s head given she hardly knew Reeva and June even less. Quite illogical, unless of course someone found the time to tell them to remove those specific items. One could suppose it was someone who was having rational thoughts about what ‘incriminating’ items should be removed from the crime scene as quick as possible. Surely not OP as we are lead to believe he was too ‘distraught’ to be thinking clearly…..or was he?

Yes. He was distraught (= remorseful) when people were witnessing his reaction to what he'd done - but remarkably cool and collected soon after when deciding what needed to be wiped/removed/hidden from the crime scene. Those acts are just not the acts of an innocent person and not a single supporter anywhere has come up with a convincing explanation for any of those acts, never mind all three. The only thing that makes sense is that stuff was removed and/or wiped because it didn't support his fairytale. How fortunate for him (as always) that his enablers had no conscience either.

 

[Val1]

All of which brings us back to Botha who seemed to run a crime scene where anyone could wander around and carry off some evidence.

IMO the "missing watch" went the same way - perhaps used as a bribe?

BBM Perhaps I'm just too naive about SA and their justice system, but why blame someone that hadn't even arrived on the scene by the time much of that had already happened? OP and his friends/family had pretty much a full hour to mess up the crime scene before Botha got there.

http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/2013/06/oscar-pistorius-murder

"Botha went into the garage, where Pistorius, in a bloody shirt and shorts, wearing his prosthetic legs, was sitting on a gym bench, surrounded by training equipment. “His head was in his hands, and he was crying. There was blood on him, but his hands were clean. We said, ‘Did you wash your hands?’ And he said, ‘Yes, because they were full of blood.’ ”"

Plus the defense PR campaign started pretty much immediately, a friend of the family taking OP to the station/hospital, the court allowing the mocking of Botha at the bail hearing and then the charges that allegedly were brought against him that noone knew about until the day before the hearing from two years before. It was plenty obvious that strings were being pulled from high up.

http://www.theweek.co.uk/world-news...hock-detective-botha-attempted-murder-charges
"It was only yesterday that we were informed by the DPP that he is being charged," said Malila."

http://news.nationalpost.com/sports...ng-attempted-murder-charges-for-firing-on-bus
"South Africa’s National Prosecuting Authority acknowledged Thursday that the timing of attempted murder charges against a policeman leading the investigation into Oscar Pistorius was “totally weird” and that the policeman is dropped from the case against the world-famous athlete."

http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/2013/06/oscar-pistorius-murder
"As his ultimate challenge—fighting a murder charge, which could lead to life in prison—loomed, his family, friends, and spin doctors went to work, blaming everyone but Oscar for Steenkamp’s death. “We have no doubt that there is no substance to the allegation and that the state’s own case, including its own forensic evidence, strongly refutes any possibility of a pre-meditated murder or indeed any murder as such,” said Oscar’s uncle Arnold, a wealthy real-estate developer and spokesman for the large, privileged Pistorius family, whose vast and diverse business interests include mining, tourism, and property development."

 

[Interested Bystander]

Yes. He was distraught (= remorseful) when people were witnessing his reaction to what he'd done - but remarkably cool and collected soon after when deciding what needed to be wiped/removed/hidden from the crime scene. Those acts are just not the acts of an innocent person and not a single supporter anywhere has come up with a convincing explanation for any of those acts, never mind all three. The only thing that makes sense is that stuff was removed and/or wiped because it didn't support his fairytale. How fortunate for him (as always) that his enablers had no conscience either.

The show of remorse was for the benefit of Masipa. You will recall, I know, he was so remorseful at what he had done that about 6 weeks after he murdered Reeva he was seen out in Johannesburg chasing girls again.

 

[Interested Bystander]

BBM Perhaps I'm just too naive about SA and their justice system, but why blame someone that hadn't even arrived on the scene by the time much of that had already happened? OP and his friends/family had pretty much a full hour to mess up the crime scene before Botha got there.

http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/2013/06/oscar-pistorius-murder

"Botha went into the garage, where Pistorius, in a bloody shirt and shorts, wearing his prosthetic legs, was sitting on a gym bench, surrounded by training equipment. “His head was in his hands, and he was crying. There was blood on him, but his hands were clean. We said, ‘Did you wash your hands?’ And he said, ‘Yes, because they were full of blood.’ ”"

Plus the defense PR campaign started pretty much immediately, a friend of the family taking OP to the station/hospital, the court allowing the mocking of Botha at the bail hearing and then the charges that allegedly were brought against him that noone knew about until the day before the hearing from two years before. It was plenty obvious that strings were being pulled from high up.

http://www.theweek.co.uk/world-news...hock-detective-botha-attempted-murder-charges
"It was only yesterday that we were informed by the DPP that he is being charged," said Malila."

http://news.nationalpost.com/sports...ng-attempted-murder-charges-for-firing-on-bus
"South Africa’s National Prosecuting Authority acknowledged Thursday that the timing of attempted murder charges against a policeman leading the investigation into Oscar Pistorius was “totally weird” and that the policeman is dropped from the case against the world-famous athlete."

http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/2013/06/oscar-pistorius-murder
"As his ultimate challenge—fighting a murder charge, which could lead to life in prison—loomed, his family, friends, and spin doctors went to work, blaming everyone but Oscar for Steenkamp’s death. “We have no doubt that there is no substance to the allegation and that the state’s own case, including its own forensic evidence, strongly refutes any possibility of a pre-meditated murder or indeed any murder as such,” said Oscar’s uncle Arnold, a wealthy real-estate developer and spokesman for the large, privileged Pistorius family, whose vast and diverse business interests include mining, tourism, and property development."

BiB x 3

I totally agree.

To this day nothing has been heard of the supposed murder charge. Now was it Roux or Oldwage who was responsible or did they have a 'spy' in the police force? They would be the only ones with easy access to such information.

 

[Val1]

i don't care what the stupid watch cost, I can't believe Pistorius or his family were crass enough to voice concern about a watch when Reeva's blood was still smeared all over his house.

Imo the watch "theft" was a red herring to muddy the investigation. We know from OP's previous messaging(at least last time I had checked it was still there) that he liked crime dramas(at least the movie variety, I don't recall what books he had though there should be enough pics around that may show those too).

http://www.supportforoscar.com/fun-facts.html
"he prefers Guy Ritchie films and old Stanley Kubrick movies. "Pulp Fiction" and "Snatch" are among his favourites."

https://www.google.ca/?gws_rd=ssl#q=Guy+Ritchie+films
"Guy Stuart Ritchie is an English filmmaker known for his crime films."

Anyway, isn't blaming the police and their handling of the crime scene the go to for pretty much every DT, which for anyone that has ever watched the news or crime dramas or read any crime novels would be almost a natural to make sure that suspicious fingers could be pointed their way. Blame anyone/everything but the perp eh....

 

[Belgarion]

Imo the watch "theft" was a red herring to muddy the investigation. We know from OP's previous messaging(at least last time I had checked it was still there) that he liked crime dramas(at least the movie variety, I don't recall what books he had though there should be enough pics around that may show those too).

http://www.supportforoscar.com/fun-facts.html
"he prefers Guy Ritchie films and old Stanley Kubrick movies. "Pulp Fiction" and "Snatch" are among his favourites."

https://www.google.ca/?gws_rd=ssl#q=Guy+Ritchie+films
"Guy Stuart Ritchie is an English filmmaker known for his crime films."

Anyway, isn't blaming the police and their handling of the crime scene the go to for pretty much every DT, which for anyone that has ever watched the news or crime dramas or read any crime novels would be almost a natural to make sure that suspicious fingers could be pointed their way. Blame anyone/everything but the perp eh....

….. and not forgetting to blame the ‘intruder.’ I’m sure, given the fear of intruders which is embedded in the SA psyche, he thought this would be immediately ‘understood’ maybe to the extent that some would sympathise with the ‘terrible mistake’ he had made. Plus this wasn’t anyone telling them, this was Oscar Pistorius

So from the moment he picked up the phone to Stander he was telling everyone that ‘I thought she was an intruder’ and how he had made a ‘terrible mistake’. He repeated it at every opportunity.

Perhaps he had also read that one of Adolf Hitler’s primary philosophies was that some people will believe a big lie quicker the more it is repeated and repeat it often enough then sooner or later all people will believe it

 

[LemonMousse]

….. and not forgetting to blame the ‘intruder.’ I’m sure, given the fear of intruders which is embedded in the SA psyche, he thought this would be immediately ‘understood’ maybe to the extent that some would sympathise with the ‘terrible mistake’ he had made. Plus this wasn’t anyone telling them, this was Oscar Pistorius

So from the moment he picked up the phone to Stander he was telling everyone that ‘I thought she was an intruder’ and how he had made a ‘terrible mistake’. He repeated it at every opportunity.

Perhaps he had also read that one of Adolf Hitler’s primary philosophies was that some people will believe a big lie quicker the more it is repeated and repeat it often enough then sooner or later all people will believe it

Yep.

(Hi, by the way).

Also, I think that case of the doctor shooting his pregnant wife had happened very shortly before that, so had recently been in the news.

I have always suspected that his initial, panicked plan was to ask the Standers to help him cover up what had happened....."I shot Reeva. It was an accident, but the police will never believe me, can you help me do xyz".

I don't for a millisecond think they'd have agreed, but I bet that was what he was hoping for. Unfortunately, the good Dr Stipp showed up and nixed it.

And, I am certain that was why Pistorius was so determined to get Reeva downstairs - so that they wouldn't see the state of the bathroom and put two and two together.

 

[Cherwell]

Which is why tampering with evidence to defeat the ends of justice is a crime. Of course no one can know what incriminating evidence Carl deleted-- not an excuse IMO for not charging him with evidence tampering. Most likely, as was reported, a deal was made and Carl got away with a crime because of the family's highly paid lawyers.

Seems to be a pattern there.

 

[Cherwell]

So from the moment he picked up the phone to Stander he was telling everyone that ‘I thought she was an intruder’ and how he had made a ‘terrible mistake’. He repeated it at every opportunity.

There was also that very early version that suggested that Reeva had crept into the house to "surprise" him. That was soon dropped, but it's interesting.

 

[sleuth-d-]

Yep.

(Hi, by the way).

Also, I think that case of the doctor shooting his pregnant wife had happened very shortly before that, so had recently been in the news.

I have always suspected that his initial, panicked plan was to ask the Standers to help him cover up what had happened....."I shot Reeva. It was an accident, but the police will never believe me, can you help me do xyz".

I don't for a millisecond think they'd have agreed, but I bet that was what he was hoping for. Unfortunately, the good Dr Stipp showed up and nixed it.

And, I am certain that was why Pistorius was so determined to get Reeva downstairs - so that they wouldn't see the state of the bathroom and put two and two together.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Man-who-shot-wife-in-error-can-sympathise-with-Oscar-20140407

it was almost the template for pistorius to work from, right down to the sliding window noise.
"Mdunge rushed her to hospital immediately after the shooting, but doctors couldn’t save her life."
... imo op was hoping to copy this with reeva.

 

[Greater Than]

Taking a step back it is surely unrealistic to suppose that CP turns up at what must have been a very distressful crime scene and suddenly thinks ‘I really must remember to find Oscar’s phone to check what needs deleting’ just as unrealistic is it for AP to suddenly start thinking of Reeva’s mother and just how much she would like to have her recently deceased daughter’s handbag. The latter being a most bizarre notion to suddenly pop into someone’s head given she hardly knew Reeva and June even less. Quite illogical, unless of course someone found the time to tell them to remove those specific items. One could suppose it was someone who was having rational thoughts about what ‘incriminating’ items should be removed from the crime scene as quick as possible. Surely not OP as we are lead to believe he was too ‘distraught’ to be thinking clearly…..or was he?

Yeah, after running around screaming (sometimes like a man/sometimes like a woman) for 15 minutes straight, this 'distraught' man didn't make a peep after he tore apart the door and found that he literally blew his girlfriend's brains out because he "didn't know what the purpose of screaming would be."