Oscar Pistorius - Discussion Thread #68 *Appeal Verdict*

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This article from ABCnews in 2013 is notable. It includes testimony from Kevin Lerena about Pistorius negligently discharging a handgun. Along with the others it seems to be an unfortunate habit of his. The other litany of misdemeanours is truly shocking. Why on earth someone didn't take this delinquent by the scruff of the neck and read him the good news is beyond me! Apologies if thus has been referenced previously. ......"

RSBM just cause it's long/

..".by the scruff of the neck and read him the good news is beyond me". That's a good one

Came across this when posting the other articles: published feb 15th 2013 :

"Donald McRae grew up in South Africa. Like many of his countrymen, he held great hopes for Oscar Pistorius. But his interviews with the young Paralympian left him feeling unsettled ........met Oscar twice.....Last year, in South Africa, I heard lots of stories about Pistorius. People said he had changed, and immersed himself in a world of surreal celebrity. All his jokes about the attention he received from women took on a darker hue amid much speculative hearsay."

Reeva most likely heard some of these rumours too (we know she had been warned off before) but probably thought he might be misunderstood or perhaps maligned by gossips....


this one is well-written and nuanced
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/feb/15/oscar-pistorius-south-africa-shattered
 
BIB - not specifically, but I do remember Masipa occasionally asking Nel in a bored tone (or was it a whispered tone, or maybe a low tone...) how long it was going to take while allowing Roux centre stage for what seemed like forever.

BBM Here's some excerpts from the live blog, I believe they also had at least three breaks during the PT's time, including their lunch:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...r-Pistorius-trial-closing-arguments-live.html
-----
"14.37 Erin Conway-Smith reports from the Pretoria courtroom:
Defence lawyer Barry Roux is off to a loud and indignant start, launching into his closing argument in the extra half-hour of court time granted by Judge Masipa."
------
"14.06 Barry Roux, Pistorius's lawyer, begins by accusing the state of ignoring a "serious material objective fact" - that it failed to explain what the initial set of "gunshot" noises were if, as it contends, the second set heard after the shouting were in fact the gun shots.

14.04 Gerrie Nel has concluded by calling for a conviction for premeditated murder, arguing that "premeditated" does not have to mean months of planning.

Pistorius's lawyer Barry Roux asks for the court to consider adjourning until 9am for his riposte, but Judge Masipa appears determined to continue and Roux is asked to begin his final defence tonight.

We will proceed for another half an hour this afternoon"
-----------------------------
"10.35 We resume with Judge Masipa telling the prosecution it is moving too slowly, and she is not available next week if the closing arguments aren't delivered by end of tomorrow."
-----------------------------
"08.35 Erin Conway-Smith is in court in Pretoria for the Telegraph this morning, and has this introduction to the next two days' events:

Quote We return to courtroom GD at Pretoria's High Court this morning for the first time in month. Oscar Pistorius's lawyers wrapped up their case 8 July, followed by an adjournment giving both legal teams time to prepare their closing arguments. Today we will begin hearing oral summaries of their final arguments to Judge Thokozile Masipa.

Both sides will present their explanations for what happened the night that Pistorius shot and killed Reeva Steenkamp, and highlight evidence in the court record. The process is expected to take two days, with the prosecution presenting first followed by the defence, though it could take more or less time."
 
Thanks for that Val1.

So she definitely put some (subtle) pressure on Nel to get things wrapped up. And Roux got an extra half hour? Felt like an extra year. I hope he doesn't monopolise arguments at the new sentencing. Nel shouldn't feel he has to hurry because Roux's used up all the time!
 
Wrong! The ANT indicator is wholly inconsistent with collateral information. Numerous psychiatrists and psychologists have gone on record to suggest he displays narcissistic/sociopathic/psychopathic traits. The collateral information is the biggest flag of all.

Who did they ask? Masipa and Uncle Arnold?

Do you happen to have any links to the psychiatrists/psychologists you mentioned? (No worries if you don't, Google is my friend! )
What do they base that diagnosis on?
 
You are aware that: from the psych report...

3.2.5 The score of 45 on ANT indicates that Mr Pistorius does not suffer from an anti-social personality disorder/psycopathy. This is consistent with clinical findings and collateral information.

Which "psych" report?

The objective one from three psychiatrists or the laughable one from the psychologist retained and paid for by the defence?

Anyway, I don't care. Pathological or not, Pistorius is a stunningly unpleasant, whining, egotistical, boastful, verbally aggressive, deceitful, nasty little turd. Quite why he appeals to some people, I have no idea. Birds of a feather, presumably.

But you know, personality disorders cannot be controlled, so we'd be doing the murderer a bit of a favour if we assigned him one - letting him off the hook, a little.

But I suspect you are right - he's just a thoroughly unpleasant <modsnip> with no excuse. Thanks for your illumination on that one :)
 
Which "psych" report?

The objective one from three psychiatrists or the laughable one from the psychologist retained and paid for by the defence?

Anyway, I don't care. Pathological or not, Pistorius is a stunningly unpleasant, whining, egotistical, boastful, verbally aggressive, deceitful, nasty little turd. Quite why he appeals to some people, I have no idea. Birds of a feather, presumably.

But you know, personality disorders cannot be controlled, so we'd be doing the murderer a bit of a favour if we assigned him one - letting him off the hook, a little.

But I suspect you are right - he's just a thoroughly unpleasant <modsnip> with no excuse. Thanks for your illumination on that one :)

I hate to be a party pooper at the orgy of character assassination going on here.
 
You mean which report?

The court ordered report.

No. The court only ordered the three psychiatrists report (which said nothing about the murderer not having NPD). The defence wanted, retained and paid for their own psychological report - separate from the one the court ordered.

He who pays the piper, etc.
 
Aftermath, other articles can be sourced online by the following authors:
Dr Dale Archer, Clinical Psychiatrist
Dr John Milton, Forensic Psychiatrist, Rampton High Security Hospital
Prof M A Simpson, clinical psychiatrist
Scott Keiller, clinical psychologist and assistant professor of psychology at Kent State University

Milton and Keiller are pay to view as they are in published journals. M A Simpson is less rigorous, more of a commentary but still worth a read.

If you need more let me know.
 
I hate to be a party pooper at the orgy of character assassination going on here.

Well to truly be a party pooper you would need to come up with some positive adjectives to counterbalance the (accurate) negative ones given. He showed himself to be all those things (examples provided on request) so do you have some positive traits to offer? Please note that given his many lies under oath, 'man of faith' won't cut it.
 
You need to read this article to understand why Carl was not prosecuted. He was on the point of being arrested until a deal was struck.

http://www.news24.com/Archives/City-Press/How-Carl-Pistorius-dodged-a-charge-20150429

Thank you for the link Interested Bystander.

I did have a chance to read it and there are a couple of points worth making but I will stick to one main one.

Nel is never going to give Oscar a break, that is obvious and this is important - The article says "A second source close to the National Prosecuting Authority said that because it wasn’t clear what had been deleted from Oscar’s cellphone, it would have been difficult to charge Carl Pistorius." So there is no proof that any incriminating evidence was deleted which goes back to my original comment that it is just speculation that Carl deleted something incriminating.
 
That's because what you describe is some sub-standard cliched version from a C Grade movie. Oscar simply heard a noise. Nothing more, nothing less. Years ago I was a naval chaplain prior to the first gulf war. We knew war was imminent and the state of alert was at bikini Amber, the second highest. Despite this all armed personnel had to abide by the rules of engagement and give 3 warnings to any intruders before the could shoot to kill. This applied to both women and men. Despite being scared witless in any contact they would adhere to the rules of engagement knowing they otherwise faced a court martial for murder. These rules still apply to this day. Throughout my service all personnel managed this without struggling with the kind of ethereal experience you describe which simply doesn't happen because you hear a noise.

Oscar had similar training and knowledge of the rules of engagement and he recklessly ignored them as he had previously done in Tasha's.

Officer-Involved Shooting: Reaction Patterns, Response Protocols,
and Psychological Intervention Strategies

Laurence Miller

Independent Practice, Boca Raton, Florida


Most common are distortions in time perception. In the majority of these cases, officers recall the shooting event as occurring in slow motion, although a smaller percentage report experiencing the event as speeded up.

Sensory distortions are common and most commonly involve tunnel vision, in which the officer is sharply focused on one particular aspect of the visual field, typically, the suspect’s gun or weapon, while blocking out everything in the periphery. Similarly, tunnel hearing may occur, in which the officer’s auditory attention is focused exclusively on a particular set of sounds, most commonly the suspect’s voice, while background sounds are excluded. Sounds may also seem muffled or, in a smaller number of cases, louder than normal. Officers have reported not hearing their own or other officers’ gunshots.

Some form of perceptual and/or behavioral dissociation may occur during the critical event. In extreme cases, officers describe feeling as though they were standing outside or hovering above the scene, observing it “like it was
happening to someone else.” In milder cases, the officer may report that he or she “just went on automatic,” performing whatever actions were necessary with a sense of robotic detachment.

Disturbances in memory are commonly reported in shooting cases. About half of these involve impaired recall for at least some of the events during the shooting scene; the other half involve impaired recall for at least part of the officer’s
own actions. This, in turn, may be associated with the “going-on-automatic” response. More rarely, some aspects of the scene may be recalled with unusually clarity – a flash-bulb memory.

More than a third of cases involve not so much a loss of recall as a distortion of memory, to the extent that the officer’s account of what happened differs markedly from the report of other observers at the scene. In general, it
is common for officers not to remember the number of rounds they fired, especially from a semiautomatic handgun.

A general neuropsychological explanation for these constrictions of sensation, perception, and memory is that the brain naturally tries to tone down the hyperarousal that occurs during a critical shooting incident, so that the individual
can function through the experience using his or her “mental autopilot” responses. In a smaller number of cases, the officer experiences heightened perceptual awareness of those features of the scene that are essential for his survival. Similarly, in emergencies the processing of accurate memories for
later use seems to take a neuropsychological back seat to the mechanisms necessary for getting the subject through the situation alive, right here and now (Miller, 1990).

The implications for training are that a greater depth, range, and flexibility of attention and arousal control will allow officers to use such automatic responding adaptively in a wider range of extreme situations (Miller, 2006)

https://www.psychceu.com/miller/Miller_OIS.pdf

https://www.psychceu.com/miller/police_course.asp


"The adrenaline rush is something that we know about but nobody has ever quantified it," said Bob Girandola, a kinesiologist at the University of Southern California. The main research barrier is that life-or-death situations can't be replicated in the laboratory. And when one arises — when a mother's son gets trapped under a car — no physiologists are around taking notes.

... in moments of extreme stress or danger, adrenaline, also known as epinephrine, gushes from your adrenal glands. "What epinephrine might do is make you exceed that red line on the tachometer," Girandola said.

"The release of adrenaline," said Lynch, who has researched the chemical pathways that influence muscle strength, "promotes blood flow to working muscles, speeds metabolism and enhances the capacity for muscles to contract with more force and power than what we might normally require to perform most of the tasks we perform during daily living. It is possible that during situations of extreme stress and danger, that the adrenaline rush enables us to unlock a muscle's true potential that might otherwise not be achieved voluntarily."

Adrenaline does this by gearing up more "motor units" — nerves and the muscle fibers they control —than are normally used all at once. "When performing most tasks, we're actually only recruiting a small number of motor units, or a sufficient number to complete the task as required. More demanding, intense activities requires that more motor units be recruited. In many cases, we may never actually recruit all of the motor units available, unless we're placed in rare situations of 'fight or flight,'" Lynch explained.

In the brain, adrenaline diminishes fear. "You do things you wouldn't normally do partially because you overlook the fear involved," Girandola said. Kamikazes, Japanese suicide bombers who fought during World War II, took amphetamines, drugs that are chemically similar to epinephrine, in order to fearlessly execute their fatal missions. In short, adrenaline makes us throw caution to the wind, and give everything we've got to the difficult task at hand. [Read: The Psychology of Fear ]

http://www.livescience.com/33336-how-powerful-willpower-adrenaline-rush.html
This is how bad it is ... there is the medical side of this as to what the adrenal glands do and how the blood is diverted to muscle etc. and yet as seen in the link below when we see it in action it is still classified as a theory.

And, there is the research done on police shootings telling us that officers get tunnel vision, go on auto-pilot and empty their guns without realizing it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hysterical_strength

My best friend when we were younger was sleeping on his dad's boat one winter night back in the 70's. He thought he heard someone yelling for help and eventually got up to see what was going on. He discovered his dad had fallen in the icy water around a piling and was in distress just hanging on to the dock.

My friend ran down and simply lifted his dad out of the water and placed him on the dock. There was little effort in doing so. His dad weighed 200 lbs. plus ...


When I was a young man, after being on the receiving end of 3 armed robberies and one military coup, I developed an anxiety disorder. I had a resting heart rate of 120 when I was diagnosed and was in full blown fight/flight except there was no present threat so there was no threat to flee from and there was no one to fight. When they found me, I had lost about 40 lbs from my normal weight and was sitting on the edge of a bed rocking back and forth with a silly grin on my face trying not to fall asleep. I was fully adrenalized. So you could say that for what most people have for just a short while to get them out of a situation, I had live in 24/7 for about 3 months. Little or no food, and was afraid to go to sleep. Heart rate a steady 120.

Because of the late diagnosis I was on meds and fought this for many years finally returning to normal and being medication free. 25 years of my life however was mainly dedicated to making it through the day without lapsing into full blown anxiety attacks.

So, I have a little experience at least in understanding how adrenaline effects you and how young Oscar felt that night when he heard an intruder in his house at 3 in the morning. A young Oscar who scored 70 and needed one more point only to be classified as having a general anxiety disorder.


This needs to be studied. There is more to this than Oscar Pistorius. In America there are a number of police officers waiting trial for killing unlawfully because their body or dash cams have recorded the incidents. One officer gunned down a gentleman while the gentleman was running away. He emptied his gun into the man and it is all caught on his dash cam. Speaking to attending officers right after the incident he was chuckling to himself saying what an adrenalin rush it was to shoot the man.

We train police to respond to a threat by giving them a gun and demanding that they choose as quickly as possible whether to fire. They must determine whether there is a lethal threat or not and then either fire to neutralize the threat or if it is not a lethal threat choose another option. Well, I see many choosing option A when maybe they should be choosing option B and I ask myself if we are expecting someone who is adrenalized to make a decision that they in some cases are not able to make correctly.

I see this way more than I want to. Maybe it's time to change to a more de-escalating system if one can be found or in my opinion we will be seeing a greater number of good officers being charged with murder. We can deal with this now or wait until we have more officers waiting trial.
 
Thank you for the link Interested Bystander.

I did have a chance to read it and there are a couple of points worth making but I will stick to one main one.

Nel is never going to give Oscar a break, that is obvious and this is important - The article says "A second source close to the National Prosecuting Authority said that because it wasn&#8217;t clear what had been deleted from Oscar&#8217;s cellphone, it would have been difficult to charge Carl Pistorius." So there is no proof that any incriminating evidence was deleted which goes back to my original comment that it is just speculation that Carl deleted something incriminating.

SA doesn't have an obstruction of justice or accomplice type of offense that CP could have been charged with?
 
Thank you for the link Interested Bystander.

I did have a chance to read it and there are a couple of points worth making but I will stick to one main one.

Nel is never going to give Oscar a break, that is obvious and this is important - The article says "A second source close to the National Prosecuting Authority said that because it wasn’t clear what had been deleted from Oscar’s cellphone, it would have been difficult to charge Carl Pistorius." So there is no proof that any incriminating evidence was deleted which goes back to my original comment that it is just speculation that Carl deleted something incriminating.

Of course, it was deleted so who's to know other than CP and OP, which is a criminal offence in my eyes. :p

But everyone can speculate all they like, what difference can it make? CP wouldn't have deleted it if it wasn't important, imo.
 
Of course, it was deleted so who's to know other than CP and OP, which is a criminal offence in my eyes. :p

But everyone can speculate all they like, what difference can it make? CP wouldn't have deleted it if it wasn't important, imo.

....or didn't fit in with the intruder version ....
 
This is how bad it is ... there is the medical side of this as to what the adrenal glands do and how the blood is diverted to muscle etc. and yet as seen in the link below when we see it in action it is still classified as a theory.

And, there is the research done on police shootings telling us that officers get tunnel vision, go on auto-pilot and empty their guns without realizing it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hysterical_strength

My best friend when we were younger was sleeping on his dad's boat one winter night back in the 70's. He thought he heard someone yelling for help and eventually got up to see what was going on. He discovered his dad had fallen in the icy water around a piling and was in distress just hanging on to the dock.

My friend ran down and simply lifted his dad out of the water and placed him on the dock. There was little effort in doing so. His dad weighed 200 lbs. plus ...


When I was a young man, after being on the receiving end of 3 armed robberies and one military coup, I developed an anxiety disorder. I had a resting heart rate of 120 when I was diagnosed and was in full blown fight/flight except there was no present threat so there was no threat to flee from and there was no one to fight. When they found me, I had lost about 40 lbs from my normal weight and was sitting on the edge of a bed rocking back and forth with a silly grin on my face trying not to fall asleep. I was fully adrenalized. So you could say that for what most people have for just a short while to get them out of a situation, I had live in 24/7 for about 3 months. Little or no food, and was afraid to go to sleep. Heart rate a steady 120.

Because of the late diagnosis I was on meds and fought this for many years finally returning to normal and being medication free. 25 years of my life however was mainly dedicated to making it through the day without lapsing into full blown anxiety attacks.

So, I have a little experience at least in understanding how adrenaline effects you and how young Oscar felt that night when he heard an intruder in his house at 3 in the morning. A young Oscar who scored 70 and needed one more point only to be classified as having a general anxiety disorder.


This needs to be studied. There is more to this than Oscar Pistorius. In America there are a number of police officers waiting trial for killing unlawfully because their body or dash cams have recorded the incidents. One officer gunned down a gentleman while the gentleman was running away. He emptied his gun into the man and it is all caught on his dash cam. Speaking to attending officers right after the incident he was chuckling to himself saying what an adrenalin rush it was to shoot the man.

We train police to respond to a threat by giving them a gun and demanding that they choose as quickly as possible whether to fire. They must determine whether there is a lethal threat or not and then either fire to neutralize the threat or if it is not a lethal threat choose another option. Well, I see many choosing option A when maybe they should be choosing option B and I ask myself if we are expecting someone who is adrenalized to make a decision that they in some cases are not able to make correctly.

I see this way more than I want to. Maybe it's time to change to a more de-escalating system if one can be found or in my opinion we will be seeing a greater number of good officers being charged with murder. We can deal with this now or wait until we have more officers waiting trial.

Sorry to hear your troubles in life, I've had my fair share too. I just don't happen to identify with OP, and I try very hard in most cases I follow, not to identify with the victim or perpetrator.

Imo, OP has no respect for women or guns, a horrible combination.
 
Well to truly be a party pooper you would need to come up with some positive adjectives to counterbalance the (accurate) negative ones given. He showed himself to be all those things (examples provided on request) so do you have some positive traits to offer? Please note that given his many lies under oath, 'man of faith' won't cut it.

:thumb:

Immediately!!
 
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