Oscar Pistorius - Discussion Thread #69 *Appeal Verdict*

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Must have missed that in court. I don't think they allow tittle tattle from the rags and spurned ex-girlfriends, jealous sports rivals, business partners of the family who got into financial trouble and who the Pistorius's wouldn't bail out, alcoholic hacks who got cut out of Olympics stories etc etc etc.....

So I guess in your opinion the spectacle that millions of people watched live on television at the 2012 Olympics of Pistorius having a violent outburst of temper because he lost a race was just an illusion created to damage his image I suppose.

You couldn’t make it up……..well unless your name is Pistorius of course who can lie with impunity knowing there will always be misguided souls in the world who will rush to shore up his image
 
BIB, it's not that black and white. Perhaps Stipp had nothing to gain but whose to say his recollection is 100% correct.

Of course I can’t say with 100% certainty Dr Stipp was correct

But what I can say with 99% certainty is Pistorius is a liar, even Masipa recognised that.

Self-discharging firearms ring any bells?
 
BIB, with due respect, you sound a bit bitter towards Aftermath. You can't say with any certainty that this verdict won't change again. You may have an opinion that it won't but again you can't say with certainty that it will not.

I have a feeling the CC will hear this case due to Oscar's disability and this could be reduced to a CH charge with time served. That was the right verdict.

If it does then it will be the first time in its history that the ConCourt will have allowed an appeal against a criminal judgment of the SCA. With respect the appeal is against the judgment of the SCA who made no finding in respect of his disability as this was dealt with by the trial court.

Also, in my opinion the ConCourt will not enter into an appeal where there is a danger of them setting a precedent for disabled persons with firearms to be treated differently to able bodied persons. Both the High Court and the SCA have made it clear this should not be the case.
 
Where have we heard this story before? Swap the handgun for a walking stick.

A man who turns 86 today has been granted leave to appeal against his 15-year jail sentence for hitting his former wife to death with his walking stick. Although they were divorced, they lived together as man and wife. He said he would be 101 by the time he had served his sentence and argued that the sentence amounted to a “death sentence”.

He was watching television while his wife was busy elsewhere in the house. All the lights were off in the house as they wanted to save electricity. He heard a noise in the bathroom and in the passage and thought a burglar had entered the house. In order to protect himself and his wife, he confronted the burglar and hit the person with his walking stick. He thought he was attacking an intruder and that this was a fight he had to win as he didn’t know what would happen to him or his wife. He kept hitting the burglar until the person fell down and it was then that he realised it was his wife. He said he didn’t mean to kill anyone.

The court rejected his version and convicted him of murder. He has now appealed against the sentence which he claimed was shockingly harsh.

https://twitter.com/barrybateman?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author
 
Where have we heard this story before? Swap the handgun for a walking stick.

A man who turns 86 today has been granted leave to appeal against his 15-year jail sentence for hitting his former wife to death with his walking stick. Although they were divorced, they lived together as man and wife. He said he would be 101 by the time he had served his sentence and argued that the sentence amounted to a “death sentence”.

He was watching television while his wife was busy elsewhere in the house. All the lights were off in the house as they wanted to save electricity. He heard a noise in the bathroom and in the passage and thought a burglar had entered the house. In order to protect himself and his wife, he confronted the burglar and hit the person with his walking stick. He thought he was attacking an intruder and that this was a fight he had to win as he didn’t know what would happen to him or his wife. He kept hitting the burglar until the person fell down and it was then that he realised it was his wife. He said he didn’t mean to kill anyone.

The court rejected his version and convicted him of murder. He has now appealed against the sentence which he claimed was shockingly harsh.

https://twitter.com/barrybateman?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author

Thanks.....I presume the same as Pistorius he probably claimed his wife remained mute throughout the killing as well
 
I might be wrong, but I think prof James Grant was just a ' wordy academic ' when he assisted Nel with the appeal.

As you clearly have never worked in the legal industry let me explain something for you.

Academia produces much of the legal thinking, analysis of case law and authoritative texts those of us in the profession use day to day.

This is because it is the job of the professors in the universities to produce research - often as their primary function (teaching is secondary) so the Professors are often the most on top of the case law in their field of anyone in the country.

Practitioners like Roux and Nel, who are many years out of law school often have the lowest levels of understanding of the case law. This is partly why law firms hire young grads because it brings up to date legal knowledge into the firm. Indeed when I started at my firm, my knowledge of say land law theory, was far in advance of one of my partners who was 20 years out and proudly informed me that he got a C in land law! The legal knowledge of any of us paled in comparison to my professors in land law who spent their careers studying it. But much of our work was practical rather than theoretical.

If anything got near Court then a typical thing to do was to get the young lawyers to do endless research - part of which would include reviewing the writings of the leading academics in the area - and pray they had something that could help you.

This is also why, frequently leading professors would assist the Court in difficult cases.

Indeed my Torts and Defamation professors were widely recognised as the leading experts in the country.

So to say James Grant is merely an academic is to ignore his status as one of the leading criminal experts in South Africa.

Second you have to understand that it is not the job of the SCA to research the law of PPD and DE from scratch.

In the adversarial process, it is the role of the opposing Counsel to bring to the Court the issues and the relevant cases and references for the Court to appraise.

So again this is why it is important and proper that a leading subject matter expert is involved in framing the submissions.
 
Oh dear aftermath, you are wrong. You should check before rushing to find any reason to excuse a murderer. Besides his academic career James Grant is an Advocate of the High Court of South Africa

Did you not notice the lawyers’ apparel he was wearing when he appeared in court? What do you think he got that at a fancy dress shop

When did he become an advocate, before or after the original trial ?

Again - might be wrong - but pretty sure that advocacy is a very recent development in his career. He didn't mention doing his advocacy pupillage on his blog until around March last year. Pretty sure he was still lecturing at the Wits university when Nel first consulted him
...
 
A bit more on requirements for reasonable grounds for subjective belief of lawful intent in PPD:

http://www.saflii.org/za/cases/ZANWHC/2005/105.html

[36] With regard to putative self-defence, Snyman in Criminal Law, Fourth Edition on page 101 states the following:-

“No ground of justification can exist in the absence of objective factors, and for this reason X’s conduct remains unlawful if she subjectively thinks that there is a ground for justification whereas in fact there is none. A so-called “putative ground of justification” is therefore in fact no ground of justification.”

[37] Jonathan Burchell in Principles of Criminal Law, Third Edition on page 243 states as follows:-

“A distinction must be drawn between private defence as a defence excluding unlawfulness, which is judged objectively, and ‘putative’ or ‘supposed’ private defence which relates to the mental state of the accused.

Where the accused raises the defence of private defence, the judicial inquiry commences with an examination of the unlawfulness or the lawfulness of the accused’s conduct. If the conduct is lawful, then an acquittal results. If the conduct is unlawful then the inquiry might not end there. Provided a foundation is laid for ‘putative’ private defence, then the court proceeds to examine whether the accused genuinely, albeit mistakenly, believed that he or she was acting in lawful private defence (where the charge requires intention to be proved) or whether this belief was also held on reasonable grounds (where negligence is sufficient for liability).”

http://www.csvr.org.za/wits/papers/papluds2.htm
The court must consider reasonableness based on what the accused knows and sees.55 For self-defence the court must establish that the accused believed she was acting lawfully, a subjective element, and that the circumstances justify that belief, an objective element. In determining the reasonableness of the accused's behaviour:56

Honest Belief
The most important requirement of putative private defence is that the accused honestly believed s/he was acting in private defence. An accused who is aware that s/he is acting unlawfully, or foresees that s/he could be acting unlawfully, including by being aware or foreseeing that s/he may be exceeding the bounds of private defence, cannot meet the elements of this defence and can be convicted of murder.109

The test for determining whether an accused held an honest belief s/he was acting in private defence is subjective.110 According to the criminal law experts, however, in testing the credibility of the accused, and therefore his/her honest belief, the court will consider whether a reasonable person would have held that belief. The more unreasonable the accused's claimed honest belief, the less likely the court will consider him/her to be credible.

Thanks.

What is artificial about discussion in this forum is that it is never of fact to the law!

In laws 101 you learn the process of analysis.

1. What does the law say?
2. Apply the facts to the law

Unfortunately but not surprisingly in these discussions stage 1 gets skilled over.

But the first thing you do as a real lawyer is go and look up what the law actually says, and how it has been applied in other cases.

So as you have so incisively shown above, Snyman clearly explains that what the accused claimed to have believed is insufficient.

X’s conduct remains unlawful if she subjectively thinks that there is a ground for justification whereas in fact there is none.

The belief must be based on objective factors.

So as Leach so clearly explained - OP did not establish the evidential foundation for PPD.
 
When did he become an advocate, before or after the original trial ?

Again - might be wrong - but pretty sure that advocacy is a very recent development in his career. He didn't mention doing his advocacy pupillage on his blog until around March last year. Pretty sure he was still lecturing at the Wits university when Nel first consulted him
...

He has been an Advocate of the High Court since 2014 and was in this position when he first assisted Nel at the time of the appeal.

https://za.linkedin.com/in/james-grant-900193
 
Thanks.

What is artificial about discussion in this forum is that it is never of fact to the law!

In laws 101 you learn the process of analysis.

1. What does the law say?
2. Apply the facts to the law

Unfortunately but not surprisingly in these discussions stage 1 gets skilled over.

But the first thing you do as a real lawyer is go and look up what the law actually says, and how it has been applied in other cases.

So as you have so incisively shown above, Snyman clearly explains that what the accused claimed to have believed is insufficient.



The belief must be based on objective factors.

So as Leach so clearly explained - OP did not establish the evidential foundation for PPD.

I think we can conclude therefore that the nebulous claim of ‘wood moving’ from a person who has chosen to face ‘danger’ is not sufficient justification for firing 4 shots at a person known to have been behind the door
 
As you clearly have never worked in the legal industry let me explain something for you.

Academia produces much of the legal thinking, analysis of case law and authoritative texts those of us in the profession use day to day.

This is because it is the job of the professors in the universities to produce research - often as their primary function (teaching is secondary) so the Professors are often the most on top of the case law in their field of anyone in the country.

Practitioners like Roux and Nel, who are many years out of law school often have the lowest levels of understanding of the case law. This is partly why law firms hire young grads because it brings up to date legal knowledge into the firm. Indeed when I started at my firm, my knowledge of say land law theory, was far in advance of one of my partners who was 20 years out and proudly informed me that he got a C in land law! The legal knowledge of any of us paled in comparison to my professors in land law who spent their careers studying it. But much of our work was practical rather than theoretical.

If anything got near Court then a typical thing to do was to get the young lawyers to do endless research - part of which would include reviewing the writings of the leading academics in the area - and pray they had something that could help you.

This is also why, frequently leading professors would assist the Court in difficult cases.

Indeed my Torts and Defamation professors were widely recognised as the leading experts in the country.

So to say James Grant is merely an academic is to ignore his status as one of the leading criminal experts in South Africa.

Second you have to understand that it is not the job of the SCA to research the law of PPD and DE from scratch.

In the adversarial process, it is the role of the opposing Counsel to bring to the Court the issues and the relevant cases and references for the Court to appraise.

So again this is why it is important and proper that a leading subject matter expert is involved in framing the submissions.


You have completely misunderstood my post if you think I am in any way dismissing legal academics. Quite the opposite in fact. My post needs to be taken in the context of the exchange that preceded it, where I referred to some of the comments made by legal academic Dr Roch Steyn, and was told by a poster that

..the 5 judges of the SCA are experienced enough to make up their own mind without taking lessons from a wordy academic who is not even a practicing lawyer.

I was merely echoing the use of the words 'wordy academic ' to highlight the irony of dismissing someone simply for being an academic
 
Its hard to take De Steyn seriously

https://www.enca.com/opinion/oscar-pistorius-link’-dolus-eventualis-still-missing-part-4

The underlying rationale might be (but it is not clear) that his poor testimony on key points was basically tantamount to not testifying. In other words, there was no reliable version from him as to what was actually in his mind at the time of firing the four shots.

However, apart from the fact that the above process of proof and the standard of ‘a rational person’ cannot in any event rightly be used in this case (as already discussed), it would also, with respect, be unsound to regard the accused’s testimony as so unreliable that it is tantamount to being absent, but then to select certain statements as ‘valid testimony’ to use in substantiating the rejection of putative private defence.

Rather, the fact that Mr Pistorius testified extensively compels a Court to consider all his testimony as a whole and, where relevant, carefully to analyse parts thereof (especially if there are contradictions and vacillation), rejecting alleged facts that favour him only if they are not reasonably possibly true (again: taking into account the totality of the evidence and his full testimony).

The onus was on the defence to establish a factual foundation for PPD

If the accused himself does not even plead to the defence, this is not the same as using the statement as "valid testimony"

Quite the opposite.

The Court is showing that the accused failed to offer valid testimony.

The idea that the Court can only reject "facts" favouring the accused if they are disproven beyond reasonable doubt is also surely incorrect.
 
Oh dear aftermath, you are wrong. You should check before rushing to find any reason to excuse a murderer. Besides his academic career James Grant is an Advocate of the High Court of South Africa

Did you not notice the lawyers’ apparel he was wearing when he appeared in court? What do you think he got that at a fancy dress shop

Nice try. It was his first time. You could stick Steyn in court dress and it would be the same.
 
I think we can conclude therefore that the nebulous claim of ‘wood moving’ from a person who has chosen to face ‘danger’ is not sufficient justification for firing 4 shots at a person known to have been behind the door

Exactly.

The Court applied the correct test.

What would a rational person in OPs position have believed?

A person trained in firearm use.
 
You have completely misunderstood my post if you think I am in any way dismissing legal academics. Quite the opposite in fact. My post needs to be taken in the context of the exchange that preceded it, where I referred to some of the comments made by legal academic Dr Roch Steyn, and was told by a poster that

..the 5 judges of the SCA are experienced enough to make up their own mind without taking lessons from a wordy academic who is not even a practicing lawyer.

I was merely echoing the use of the words 'wordy academic ' to highlight the irony of dismissing someone simply for being an academic

I realise that but there is no comparison to be made between the two.

Steyn is publishing some blog posts - not even in a recognised legal journal
 
I find the way three posters are joining together to besmirch Prof Grant not only completely distasteful but completely ignorant.


As far as I can see, Dr Steyn doesn't even work in this area.


It does seem a strange business that OP would be basing his appeal on the blog posts of a completely unknown guy, especially seeing as how Roux made none of these sorts of arguments before the SCA

Smacks of desperation.
 
I find the way three posters are joining together to besmirch Prof Grant not only completely distasteful but completely ignorant.


As far as I can see, Dr Steyn doesn't even work in this area.


It does seem a strange business that OP would be basing his appeal on the blog posts of a completely unknown guy, especially seeing as how Roux made none of these sorts of arguments before the SCA

Smacks of desperation.

No one is besmirching prof grant!
To suggest as much is disingenuous
 
I'd like to know who helped Roux formulate his now infamous "slow burn" defense he introduced late in the first trial... That was the low point for me.

As if Oscar had been repeatedly subjected to humiliating and degrading threats and invasions by this same intruder over and over again prior to February 14th, 2013 until he finally just snapped at the sound of wood moving.
 
No one is besmirching prof grant!
To suggest as much is disingenuous

Quite so.

All I saw was a poster getting caught out trying to besmirch a "wordy academic"

After having a go at an experienced and industry respected HC judge for a couple of years I suppose we should welcome the change.
 
How so? Oscar repeatedly denied responsibility for intending to shoot (except when Nel confronted him with his own words in his original bail affidavit).

How could this support a PPD defense claim where one would logically have shot with deliberate intent while acting in self-defense? Instead Masipa had to reject his own testimony and provide him with the necssary intent to shoot.

Why do we have to keep repeating this. He said he fired because he thought he was being attacked. Whatever he said was in his mind prior to that moment he had armed himself for a possible confrontation and when he got the fright he fired to defend himself. It really is that simple.
 
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