Oscar Pistorius - Discussion Thread #69 *Appeal Verdict*

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This is where those who have no legal experience give themselves away

Many legal analysts disagreed with her verdict because it contained legal errors on its face and was poorly drafted.

This analysis is a typical process that takes place every day in the legal community. But usually about cases the public does not care about.

I am yet to read an abundance of scholarly criticism of Justice Leach - precisely because Leach delivered a balanced and well reasoned judgement

... unlike Masipa

Thank you Mr Jitty - even as a person with no legal experience, the lack of rationale in Masipa's argument was crazy. Little logic whatsoever. I'm a layperson (who taught Legal Studies), but her fallacious 'reasoning' was shocking - particularly for such a high profile case that was being closely followed internationally.
 
Thank you Mr Jitty - even as a person with no legal experience, the lack of rationale in Masipa's argument was crazy. Little logic whatsoever. I'm a layperson (who taught Legal Studies), but her fallacious 'reasoning' was shocking - particularly for such a high profile case that was being closely followed internationally.

You are not alone, the following are some of the many comments by legal experts after her ruling. I have yet to find experts of a similar standing who agree with Masipa


Johann Engelbrecht SC said Masipa's application of the dolus eventualis test was wrong. 'I'm shocked. She is off the track. A human being was shot, regardless of who he thought it was.'


Professor Pierre de Vos said Masipa had got it wrong. 'If you meant to kill X, but you make a mistake and killed Y, it doesn't automatically exclude murder.'


Martin Hood said he was shocked by the ruling, 'I think she's going to get quite a lot of criticism from the judiciary and the legal system,' said the Johannesburg-based lawyer. 'The consensus is that she hasn't got it right


Llewelyn Curlewis , Law Society of the Northern Provinces president, said there were many inconsistencies in Masipa's argument


Ulrich Roux, Criminal Defence lawyer, said Masipa's ruling meant that 'Pistorius subjectively did not foresee (dolus eventualis) that the shooting would lead to the death of someone. Obviously the judgment needs to be studied but it is surprising


Stephen Tuson, law professor at Wits university, said: 'I think the verdict on premeditated murder is acceptable however her reasoning on dolus eventualis is flawed and I think the state would arguably be able to appeal


Jan Henning SC, former NPA deputy head said, ‘It is very strange. I don't know what to say, because it is so far from the bus. It doesn't make sense'


Professor James Grant, of the Wits School of Law, said 'the problem is that Masipa has found that he did not intend to kill, but that is not the question and it was not his defence, it seems as if she arrived at the conclusion by making a mistake of law relating to whether it matters who was behind the door’
 
You are not alone, the following are some of the many comments by legal experts after her ruling. I have yet to find experts of a similar standing who agree with Masipa


Johann Engelbrecht SC said Masipa's application of the dolus eventualis test was wrong. 'I'm shocked. She is off the track. A human being was shot, regardless of who he thought it was.'


Professor Pierre de Vos said Masipa had got it wrong. 'If you meant to kill X, but you make a mistake and killed Y, it doesn't automatically exclude murder.'


Martin Hood said he was shocked by the ruling, 'I think she's going to get quite a lot of criticism from the judiciary and the legal system,' said the Johannesburg-based lawyer. 'The consensus is that she hasn't got it right


Llewelyn Curlewis , Law Society of the Northern Provinces president, said there were many inconsistencies in Masipa's argument


Ulrich Roux, Criminal Defence lawyer, said Masipa's ruling meant that 'Pistorius subjectively did not foresee (dolus eventualis) that the shooting would lead to the death of someone. Obviously the judgment needs to be studied but it is surprising


Stephen Tuson, law professor at Wits university, said: 'I think the verdict on premeditated murder is acceptable however her reasoning on dolus eventualis is flawed and I think the state would arguably be able to appeal


Jan Henning SC, former NPA deputy head said, ‘It is very strange. I don't know what to say, because it is so far from the bus. It doesn't make sense'


Professor James Grant, of the Wits School of Law, said 'the problem is that Masipa has found that he did not intend to kill, but that is not the question and it was not his defence, it seems as if she arrived at the conclusion by making a mistake of law relating to whether it matters who was behind the door’

Jonathan Burchell

http://www.bdlive.co.za/opinion/2014/09/17/masipas-decision-to-acquit-oscar-of-murder-justified
 
Excellent, well done against the overwhelming opinion against Masipa’s verdict you found one supporter.

I also looked for anyone who supported Dr Steyn’s opinion, eventually I also found one, who said……

Best explanation to date and the reason I believe the SCA erred – Carl Pistorius

No comment

You said you couldn't find someone of high standing... I found you someone.
 
You said you couldn't find someone of high standing... I found you someone.

I did say well done for finding one but what do you think about the opinion of the eight I mentioned (and there are more) or do you dismiss them all in favour of Burchill?

You will also note that the 5 judges of the SCA also disagreed with Burchill’s opinion
 
You said you couldn't find someone of high standing... I found you someone.

Hello aftermath. I was aware of Burchell's article, but, the error in objecto point aside, do you think he is actually agreeing that Pistorius honestly didn't know he was behaving unlawfully when he fired?

Might he be saying that this is what Masipa should have said, if, indeed, it was her view, but that she didn't spell it out properly in her judgement?
 
Hello aftermath. I was aware of Burchell's article, but, the error in objecto point aside, do you think he is actually agreeing that Pistorius honestly didn't know he was behaving unlawfully when he fired?

Might he be saying that this is what Masipa should have said, if, indeed, it was her view, but that she didn't spell it out properly in her judgement?

The critique of Burchell by Grant is good stuff.

I wonder if he ever responded?

http://criminallawza.net/2014/09/28...ustify-judge-masipas-errors-revised-expanded/

Both Masipa and Burchell[8] correctly observe that the facts of the Pistorius case disclose a scenario of error in objecto – in which the nominal/name identity of the victim is irrelevant.[9]

After noting that, in error in objecto scenarios, the identity of the actual victim is irrelevant, Masipa asks what she says is required by the test of dolus eventualis (legal intention): Did the accused foresee the possibility of killing the deceased. This is the wrong question for two reasons. As discussed below, the accused’s defence was that he did not intend to unlawfully kill anyone. This focus – the very basis of the defence of putative private defence – is lost. But, putting that aside, secondly, it is wrong because it deviates from, even contradicts, the recognition that the facts disclose an error in objecto scenario and that the identity of the victim is irrelevant. The question then, correcting also for the defence of putative private defence, should have been: did the accused foresee the possibility of unlawfully killing whoever was behind the door.

Again, it does not help to say this cannot be true because he thought the deceased was in the bedroom. This is the argument that Masipa seems to have finally settled on – and it is fatally flawed in logic. She says: the accused could not have foreseen the possibility of killing the deceased, or anyone else for that matter, because he thought the deceased was in the bedroom. The fact that the accused thought that the deceased was in the bedroom says nothing about what he thought about the presence of someone else in the toilet. Indeed, it is his defence that he believed someone else was in the toilet.

Burchell perpetuates this error in logic. Referring to his scenario in which he notes that it is irrelevant that A intends to kill B, but kills C, he argues that there can be no intention to kill C if A had excluded in his mind the possibility that the person he thinks is B, could be C. But this is the definition of an error in objecto scenario – let’s take this slowly: A intends to kill B. He does not intend to kill C, but B. He thinks that B (the human body) is, well, B. In thinking that B is B, he does not think that B is actually C. So thinking that B is B and not C, he has excluded in his mind, the possibility that B is C. This is the definition of an error in objecto scenario and there is no dispute that the identity of the actual victim is irrelevant. That is, it cannot help the accused that he thought that B (the human body) was B – where he did not think that B was C. Therefore, it cannot assist an accused who has excluded from his mind the possibility that B is C.

Importantly, the reason for any error as to identity is also irrelevant. It cannot help an accused who thinks that B is B because B is not C. Our law is clear, in error in objecto scenarios, (nominal/name) identity is irrelevant, and it remains irrelevant no matter what an accused’s reasons are for making a mistake as to the identity of his victim.

Masipa’s error was similar. In her view the accused could not be convicted of murder because the accused did not foresee that he could kill C (or B), because he thought C was in the bedroom. In that case, it leaves him thinking that B was in the toilet. As we know from the rules of error in objecto, it is no defence to say that he thought that B was B, and not C.

Personally I think Burchell is wrong about this - and this precise argument was made by Roux before the SCA and rejected

Roux was fixated with the idea that for a moment OP might have thought it could have been Reeva

Anyway - at this point I think we can say that the SCA has definitely held against Burchell on this point.

What IS interesting about Burchell is he goes some way to explaining Masipa's judgement.
 
Hello aftermath. I was aware of Burchell's article, but, the error in objecto point aside, do you think he is actually agreeing that Pistorius honestly didn't know he was behaving unlawfully when he fired?

Might he be saying that this is what Masipa should have said, if, indeed, it was her view, but that she didn't spell it out properly in her judgement?

Hello x

I think he is saying that it is more likely that Pistorius thought he was acting lawfully in shooting an intruder. I do think he is suggesting that her judgement could/should have been more clearly expressed, though.
 
Hello x

I think he is saying that it is more likely that Pistorius thought he was acting lawfully in shooting an intruder. I do think he is suggesting that her judgement could/should have been more clearly expressed, though.

Thanks. It wasn't really clear to me if he was providing his own opinion on liability or simply providing a rationale for her verdict.

At one point, admittedly, he did seem to be supporting the view that a reasnable conclusion, based on the evidence, was that Pistorius did not intend to act unlawfully.
 
Roux asked at the SCA - so why did he shoot? He knows PPD was not established by the trial court.

Although a seemingly decent riposte from Roux while under great pressure in oral argument I think this rhetorical question was a mistake as it only served to highlight that the question had not been explicitly ruled on. If it had - Roux could have shown where it was stated in the judgement.
 
The critique of Burchell by Grant is good stuff.

I wonder if he ever responded?

http://criminallawza.net/2014/09/28...ustify-judge-masipas-errors-revised-expanded/



Personally I think Burchell is wrong about this - and this precise argument was made by Roux before the SCA and rejected

Roux was fixated with the idea that for a moment OP might have thought it could have been Reeva

Anyway - at this point I think we can say that the SCA has definitely held against Burchell on this point.

What IS interesting about Burchell is he goes some way to explaining Masipa's judgement.

Yes and, given his status, it would be good to get an opinion from him on the SCA's judgement and Steyn's articles.

I wonder if Trotterly might consider emailing him :sos: :)
 
I did say well done for finding one but what do you think about the opinion of the eight I mentioned (and there are more) or do you dismiss them all in favour of Burchill?

You will also note that the 5 judges of the SCA also disagreed with Burchill’s opinion

I don't dismiss them at all. All deserve fair consideration.
 
Although a seemingly decent riposte from Roux while under great pressure in oral argument I think this rhetorical question was a mistake as it only served to highlight that the question had not been explicitly ruled on. If it had - Roux could have shown where it was stated in the judgement.

When Masipa granted leave to appeal she more or less admitted that her judgement was not water tight.
 
Excellent, well done against the overwhelming opinion against Masipa’s verdict you found one supporter.

I also looked for anyone who supported Dr Steyn’s opinion, eventually I also found one, who said……

Best explanation to date and the reason I believe the SCA erred – Carl Pistorius

No comment

Nicholas Taitz
 
Nicholas Taitz

Didn't Taitz call Professor Jonathan Burchell SA's leading criminal law expert?

Clearly this will be seen as a bias opinion. IIRC he looks about 12 so that will be held against him unless he's seen as one of those young upstarts with all that lovely fresh knowledge.
 
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