Oscar Pistorius - Discussion Thread #70 *Appeal Verdict*

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Can anyone suggest a valid non-suspicious reason for CP taking OP's phone from the murder scene?

OR why his sister would take Reeva's bag when she had never met RS's mother or any other member of the family who lived 1100 kilometres away.

great questions.
at a stretch i could accept a phone was initially taken in error.
if that were the case:
nefarious [haha] suspicion arises that it then took two weeks to return it.
suspicion compounds that when it was finally returned it had been wiped.
 
BIB - so you get that feeling from the supporters, too?

I've seen posters (who claim not to be supporters) on this very site getting extremely worked up about Reeva and completely unable to rein in their not even thinly veiled rage-filled comments towards her. Using your reasoning "maybe that person (or those people) is/are not taking a calm, dispassionate and fair look at the evidence"?

I think the mods must be super-quick at removing such rage -filled comments directed at Reeva, as I don't recall seeing any on here. What on earth is there about her to feel rage about? I hope any such posts are treated with the contempt they deserve
 
Mr Fossil deserves massive sleuthing kudos for his cell tower analysis.

Any reality based discussion needs to include that aspect.

But sadly the legal ship already sailed.

yes, certainly not the kind of new information that op would want to be expanding upon to aid any future appeal [as in the adnan syed case for instance].
 
it certainly highlights the ludicrous nature of the fabrication. that such fabrication was believed to such an extent in a courtroom - and continues to be believed/supported for page after page of these threads - i find far from hilarious.

I don't know if it was entirely believed in the court. Certain posters try to pretend that Masipa completely accepted the intruder story, but I don't think that's a true reflection, really.

Don't get me wrong....her judgement stank, and was littered with the most incredible failures of logic, as we know, but I think the most that can be said is that she felt the defence raised a doubt that was reasonable (not a high bar) and she could find no direct evidence to refute it. This is a million miles from "accepted his story". Basically calling him a liar with a story that makes no sense doesn't shriek blind acceptance to me.

And I suspect that the State knew from the outset that this was a real possibility as far as DD was concerned. When evidence, no matter how compelling, is almost entirely cirumstantial, this is a risk.

Masipa's big crime was messing up DE as badly as she did. Thankfully more experienced judges have put her right on that.

Although, it hasn't escaped my notice that certain posters who claim to "accept court findings" are only referring to those issued by Masipa. The findings of more experienced judges in a higher court are "wrong".

Amazing.
 
great questions.
at a stretch i could accept a phone was initially taken in error.
if that were the case:
nefarious [haha] suspicion arises that it then took two weeks to return it.
suspicion compounds that when it was finally returned it had been wiped.


LOL I confess I couldn't go as far as it was taken in error.

There has always been another problem I have with the phone story. OP said he tried RS's phone to call for help (if I remember correctly) but said he couldn't use it because it was locked and he didn't know the pass code. I don't use an iPhone but I thought there was a special button for emergency calls which negated the need to know the pass code. He uses iPhones so how come he came up with such a lame excuse. Bells started ringing as soon as I heard that. I am convinced he was looking to see if Reeva did actually have time to phone anyone. He must have been extremely worried about the police finding that she had.

Well folks, I think we are supposed to be discussing the Appeal but it looks as though it will be a long time before we get any news with respect to that. The ruling gives us very little opportunity to discuss anything else. :(
 
I think the mods must be super-quick at removing such rage -filled comments directed at Reeva, as I don't recall seeing any on here. What on earth is there about her to feel rage about? I hope any such posts are treated with the contempt they deserve

Some people do seem to hate her. I have seen such posts.

Other people (just as bad, imo) seem not to give any kind of damn about her at all. She barely enters their thought processes in any way .....it's all about reaching for the latest ridiculous excuse for her murderer firing point blank into the box that contained her.

To me "He was scared and couldn't walk on tiles...then a magazine rack moved" is a woefully inadequate explanation for murderering a human being. As it is for most decent people.
 
LOL I confess I couldn't go as far as it was taken in error.

There has always been another problem I have with the phone story. OP said he tried RS's phone to call for help (if I remember correctly) but said he couldn't use it because it was locked and he didn't know the pass code. I don't use an iPhone but I thought there was a special button for emergency calls which negated the need to know the pass code. He uses iPhones so how come he came up with such a lame excuse. Bells started ringing as soon as I heard that. I am convinced he was looking to see if Reeva did actually have time to phone anyone. He must have been extremely worried about the police finding that she had.

Well folks, I think we are supposed to be discussing the Appeal but it looks as though it will be a long time before we get any news with respect to that. The ruling gives us very little opportunity to discuss anything else. :(

yes there is [has always been?] an emergency option from the iphone lock screen. comments below cover 2011...

"Emergency numbers and services vary by country or region. Only emergency numbers valid in the country or region where you’re making the call will work, ..."

Page 67 of http://manuals.info.apple.com/enUS/iphone_userguide.pdf

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/2783061?tstart=0


re: appeal/keeping on topic ... i guess you mentioned the word 'appeal' so you are fine... [as did i ;) ]
 
Some people do seem to hate her. I have seen such posts.

Other people (just as bad, imo) seem not to give any kind of damn about her at all. She barely enters their thought processes in any way .....it's all about reaching for the latest ridiculous excuse for her murderer firing point blank into the box that contained her.

To me "He was scared and couldn't walk on tiles...then a magazine rack moved" is a woefully inadequate explanation for murderering a human being. As it is for most decent people.

ah yes, those slippery tiles.
op's own evidence re: 9pm ish that evening - "i walked to the bathroom without my prosthetic legs on and i brushed my teeth"
such a poor fabricator.
 
Having perused both the Concourt and SCA judgements some interesting facts emerge.

Whilst there are numerous appeals to the Concourt in respect of the judgement of the SCA one thing becomes obvious. Whilst most appeals relate to ‘civil matters’ there is no record of any appeal against a High Court verdict which has been amended by the SCA.

That is not to say the opportunity did not exist as the records of the SCA show a number of times when a verdict has been amended by that court.

So as far as I can determine Pistorius is asking the ConCourt to ‘break new ground’ by hearing his appeal against a SCA judgement in respect of an amended verdict.

I think it fair to say that a majority of people would agree that the unanimous judgement of the SCA, especially in relation to the principles of DE, were clearly stated by Justice Leach. Therefore there is no reason to think otherwise than the majority of the ConCourt would think likewise.

So it boils down a simple question.

Will a majority of the ConCourt set new case law by favouring Pistorius and disagreeing with the unanimous judgement of the SCA judges in favour of an untested and novel approach to determining DE proposed by Dr Steyn who is not a mainstream academic in criminal matters.

Personally I think not.
 
yes there is [has always been?] an emergency option from the iphone lock screen. comments below cover 2011...

"Emergency numbers and services vary by country or region. Only emergency numbers valid in the country or region where you’re making the call will work, ..."

Page 67 of http://manuals.info.apple.com/enUS/iphone_userguide.pdf

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/2783061?tstart=0


re: appeal/keeping on topic ... i guess you mentioned the word 'appeal' so you are fine... [as did i ;) ]

I just tried it with my older iPhone 4s still running Version 9.1 and when you first open it in the passcode lock mode you get the standard black screen where you enter your passcode. At the bottom left, however, is a touch option for "Emergency".

If you touch this, you get a white screen that says "Emergency Call" in red letters across the top (which then also appears translated in a rotating series of different languages) and I was able to dial 911 (but did not have to press the green button to send the call).

Maybe someone could appeal to Mr. Fossil or Apple to clarify what system was in place on their phones in February 2013. It could possibly vary by cell phone provider service too. Mr. Fossil would probably know.

It's kind of frustrating that some things like this were not challenged on cross-examination or brought to light by Moller. But then I am sure OP would have just said he was in such a state he did not notice the "Emergency" option at the lower left of the screen.
 
I just tried it with my older iPhone 4s still running Version 9.1 and when you first open it in the passcode lock mode you get the standard black screen where you enter your passcode. At the bottom left, however, is a touch option for "Emergency".

If you touch this, you get a white screen that says "Emergency Call" in red letters across the top (which then also appears translated in a rotating series of different languages) and I was able to dial 911 (but did not have to press the green button to send the call).

Maybe someone could appeal to Mr. Fossil or Apple to clarify what system was in place on their phones in February 2013. It could possibly vary by cell phone provider service too. Mr. Fossil would probably know.

It's kind of frustrating that some things like this were not challenged on cross-examination or brought to light by Moller. But then I am sure OP would have just said he was in such a state he did not notice the "Emergency" option at the lower left of the screen.

To be sure OP would have had an excuse. I suspect the only reason he mentioned it was that his blood soaked hands would have been all over the keys. Not something he could have washed off in the time available and if he had it would have shown that he had been wiping the phone down.

Being an avid follower of crime solving TV shows he most likely knew all the wrinkles to avoid being caught red-handed. I read recently that break ins and how one would deal with them is a common topic of conversation at dinner parties in SA and that it predated the OP murder.
 
As many of you will know I have always had a real problem accepting the Defence Sound/Accoustics engineer's testimony and even more of a problem with Masipa's interpretation of his evidence. Judge Greenland, on Channel 119 discusses this aspect and if it has not been viewed it is well worth the effort.

It really does confirm for me how misguided Masipa was with respect to her decision re the screams.

[video=youtu;1mCULJUdk_k]http://youtu.be/1mCULJUdk_k[/video]
 
Some people do seem to hate her. I have seen such posts.

Other people (just as bad, imo) seem not to give any kind of damn about her at all. She barely enters their thought processes in any way .....it's all about reaching for the latest ridiculous excuse for her murderer firing point blank into the box that contained her.

To me "He was scared and couldn't walk on tiles...then a magazine rack moved" is a woefully inadequate explanation for murderering a human being. As it is for most decent people.
BIB - couldn't walk on tiles, yet by some kind of Pistorius miracle was able to get out of bed, walk to the balcony doors, bring in a fan or fans (depending on which version we go with), walk back to the bed, retrieve his gun from underneath the bed, rush down the corridor, murder Reeva and then walk backwards while keeping an eye on the door - all without bumping into a single thing in the DARK on his wobbly stumps. Unbelievable.
 
I think the mods must be super-quick at removing such rage -filled comments directed at Reeva, as I don't recall seeing any on here. What on earth is there about her to feel rage about? I hope any such posts are treated with the contempt they deserve
If you don't recall seeing any, then you must have missed a fair few posts. Other posters remember seeing them and there were several replies to the original posts, so you must have missed all of those too.
 
NB. My post 192 should read Channel 199 not 119. Apologies. I appreciate this is all history now but the level of frustration I feel with Judge Masipa's verdict keeps bubbling to the top. OP should be serving a long sentence instead of enjoying a leisurely break as the guest of AP.

[video=youtu;1mCULJUdk_k]http://youtu.be/1mCULJUdk_k[/video]
 
If you don't recall seeing any, then you must have missed a fair few posts. Other posters remember seeing them and there were several replies to the original posts, so you must have missed all of those too.

One thing the mods have said is that while this is a victim friendly forum, we are allowed to discuss facts about the victim whether they are positive or negative. The reality is that some posters on this forum are unable to accept the truth as to who Reeva really was....a human being with positive and negative qualities, not a sinless angel like some have tried to portray her as.
 
I don't know if it was entirely believed in the court. Certain posters try to pretend that Masipa completely accepted the intruder story, but I don't think that's a true reflection, really.

Don't get me wrong....her judgement stank, and was littered with the most incredible failures of logic, as we know, but I think the most that can be said is that she felt the defence raised a doubt that was reasonable (not a high bar) and she could find no direct evidence to refute it. This is a million miles from "accepted his story". Basically calling him a liar with a story that makes no sense doesn't shriek blind acceptance to me.

And I suspect that the State knew from the outset that this was a real possibility as far as DD was concerned. When evidence, no matter how compelling, is almost entirely cirumstantial, this is a risk.

Masipa's big crime was messing up DE as badly as she did. Thankfully more experienced judges have put her right on that.

Although, it hasn't escaped my notice that certain posters who claim to "accept court findings" are only referring to those issued by Masipa. The findings of more experienced judges in a higher court are "wrong".

Amazing.

BIB - And will you still say the same thing when the ConCourt finally fixes this mess once and for all and returns the verdict back to CH or will there be cries of foul and possible bribery accusations such as during the High Court verdict where the 2 accessors overpowered Masipa, wrote the verdict for her and forced her to read it against her will?
 
BIB - And will you still say the same thing when the ConCourt finally fixes this mess once and for all and returns the verdict back to CH or will there be cries of foul and possible bribery accusations such as during the High Court verdict where the 2 accessors overpowered Masipa, wrote the verdict for her and forced her to read it against her will?

I think for the purpose of the wild aspirations in this post it is well worth repeating yet again some pertinent facts.

The records show the Concourt since its inception has NEVER entertained, even less overturned, a unanimous criminal verdict of the SCA

It has been agreed by a swath of legal experience that there is nothing amiss with the current legal definition of DE. The problem, as was demonstrated very clearly by the SCA , was simply Masipa’s incorrect application of the law in this respect. Even Masipa herself tacitly accepted she had erred in this respect by granting leave to appeal

Concurrent with the Pistorius appeal a different approach to the application of DE was proposed by Dr Roche Steyn, a medico-legal specialist, in a series of media articles. The author is neither a practising lawyer or a criminal law academic nor has he published any such contradictory views in any mainstream legal text book.

Pistorius’ application for leave to appeal to the Concourt contests the judgement of the SCA in respect of DE by relying mainly on the views of Dr Steyn.

These are facts.

Now for anyone wishing to think the Concourt will grant leave to appeal and furthermore reinstate the original verdict has to accept that the justices of the Concourt (many of whom are former SCA appointees) will do the following:

Depart from the reliance on established legal principles which is a bedrock of any judiciary system and will, for the first time in the history of the Concourt, overturn a verdict of the SCA and in doing so will strike down the current principles of DE, which have been established through a plethora of case law, in favour of a new approach disseminated in a series of media articles by a person not an expert in the field of criminal law.

In my opinion for anyone to really honestly believe that is going to happen will have replaced plain common sense with senseless blind adoration to Oscar Pistorius – a convicted murderer.
 
One thing the mods have said is that while this is a victim friendly forum, we are allowed to discuss facts about the victim whether they are positive or negative. The reality is that some posters on this forum are unable to accept the truth as to who Reeva really was....a human being with positive and negative qualities, not a sinless angel like some have tried to portray her as.

What negatives? She was helping to support her family. Plus she had a law degree at a young age and she was a model that was about to have her own show or be apart of a show.

She could have dated any man but she chose a guy with no legs. She really didn't need Oscar and wasn't using him the way some people think. He wasn't the only bachelor with connections. Plus even though Angelina Jolie stole Brad Pitt from Jennifer Aniston; Does that make Angelina Jolie less of a good person for not waiting a little longer before hooking up with Brad who is now hubby and the father of her kids.

So Reeva was a very decent and respectable lady for the most part. Jmo.
 
BIB - And will you still say the same thing when the ConCourt finally fixes this mess once and for all and returns the verdict back to CH or will there be cries of foul and possible bribery accusations such as during the High Court verdict where the 2 accessors overpowered Masipa, wrote the verdict for her and forced her to read it against her will?

Pistorius doesn't have any valid grounds to take his case to the Con Court.

He has been well and truly stitched up by Masipa and by his legal team.

Why Masipa? Because she acquitted him of murder with a judgement that revealed no legal basis for doing so.

Not only did she not show the correct legal reasoning for acquitting him of murder (DD or DE), she made no finding that he acted with lawful intent or that he had a valid defence of PPD.

Additionally, as far as Derman's 'expert' evidence was concerned, she rejected it. She said she did not accept that his disability or his vulnerability or his anxiety caused him to not think of the consequences of shooting. The only part of his evidence that she accepted was that he has a confrontational disposition, fight rather than flight.

Lastly, she gave him no allowance for his state of mind during the trial. She said that she did not accept that his ability to give evidence was compromised by factors such as PTSD or medication. She said that under cross-examination he was evasive - that can only mean deliberately untruthful.

If Pistorius wanted to appeal any of Masipa's findings, the court to appeal to was the SCA, not the Constitutional Court. He had no incentive to however, because he had been acquitted of murder, but technically he can't now decide that it is a constitutional matter because he was very happy at the time but isn't now, and therefore lost his right of appeal to the SCA. The Con Court isn't there to do what the SCA was established to do, which is to look at whether cases have been unfairly judged on the evidence, that much is clear - it has to be a matter of general and wider public importance.

Why his legal team? - well because Masipa never made a finding of PPD and she never accepted his disability and his state of mind caused him to do what he did. Therefore there was always going to be a very good chance that if the State appealed the murder acquittal, Pistorius would be on very shaky ground indeed. Therefore, Roux did not represent Pistorius' best interests when he failed to appeal Masipa's legal and factual errors on behalf of his client, regarding all the things he wants now to slip in via the back door to the Con Court.

Roux's only opportunity to establish that PPD and lawful intent was made out in the trial court judgement was at the SCA. He didn't because it wasn't, and therefore he couldn't, and despite what they are saying in the Con Court appeal, it wasn't the State who needed leave to appeal the errors regarding Masipa's handling of PPD, why would the State argue that? That would be to represent Pistorius for him!

It might be hard for supporters to digest, but all of the points Pistorius is now taking to the Con Court should have been appealed in the SCA. The SCA did not err, Masipa did, the SCA worked with Masipa's findings, it had to, and all their complaints can be seen to be complaints against her Judgement.

Pistorius' supporters did not get the deal they thought they did with her - her acquittal was a double bind for him. If anyone 'discriminated against his disability' as he alleges, it was Masipa. Yet he gave up his right to complain, when he celebrated his (temporary) victory at Roux's little house party.

Don't be disappointed when it gets thrown out of the Con Court.
 
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