PA - Assassination attempt, shooting injures former POTUS Donald Trump, leaves 1 spectator deceased two in critical condition, 13 July 2024 #4

[bestill]

Complete investigation is not letting secret service or fbi to hide their fault in this tragedy, and lay blame on others.
I am one that has lost faith in the intelligence community. Having lived for decades in the area of nsa and dc. Keeping up with the goings on so to speak. Many ppl I know work for gov.

Jmo

I think that many of us are very disappointed in the intelligence community.

I have question about the investigation. Isn't it normal for evidence markers to be used during an investigation? I don't recall seeing any markers on the roof or other areas. I find that curious.

All jmo

 

[layer]

I'm still going with the third option of local LE unilaterally deciding to "take off early and leave" then getting locked out and otherwise fumbling their responsibilities.

The snipers weren't Secret Service? You're saying that overwatch was farmed out by SS to the <modsnip: unnecessary> cops? I wonder why something so critical to the safety of not just Trump but 10-20,000 people would be farmed out at all. We really need answers.

 

[CCJD]

I'm still going with the third option of local LE unilaterally deciding to "take off early and leave" then getting locked out and otherwise fumbling their responsibilities. It happened at the worst possible time, just as the shooter was accessing his perch. JMO, the killer was lucky, local LE were highly unprofessional.

RSBM

BUTLER TOWNSHIP, Pa. — In the days since a gunman tried to assassinate Donald Trump, a township in rural Pennsylvania has received a barrage of hate mail and angry phone calls blaming its officers for failing to keep the former president safe.

Now Butler Township Manager Tom Knights is pushing back. “They couldn’t be more wrong,” he said in an interview Tuesday.

Despite the dozens of local, state and federal law enforcement officers on the scene, Knights said it was four Butler Township officers assigned to traffic duty who bolted from their post and raced to confront the gunman, with one clinging to the roof where the would-be assassin was perched.
BBM

Small-town officer who confronted Trump gunman praised by local official

A community in Pennsylvania is defending itself against criticisms in a remarkable back-and-forth between the Secret Service and local law enforcement agencies.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[Puzzles8]

IMO it's healed.

Also that photo is in terrible lighting so it's grainy.

<modsnip - off topic>

Let us not forget that Trump normally wears a lot of makeup.
I'm sure he had the best artists working on his ear.

JMO

 

[Elley Mae]

Snipped

At the same time, however, we also witnessed a massive security failure by the Secret Service and the Department of Homeland Security

“We Will Continue to Push For Answers”: Chairman Green Delivers Opening Statement in Hearing on Assassination Attempt Against Former President Trump – Committee on Homeland Security

homeland.house.gov

…

How was Home land security involved?

 

[GRT]

Transparent about his injury. There was never any report or official update, aside from the words of a close personal friend of his.

I'm not saying he wasn't injured, by any means. I'm just pointing out that his unwillingness to be transparent has led to speculation.

I guess there is an official update.

 

[GRT]

Let us not forget that Trump normally wears a lot of makeup.
I'm sure he had the best artists working on his ear.

JMO

I thought that, too. If they couldn't make it look normal, he would probably still have the bandage on. MOO

 

[layer]

I think that many of us are very disappointed in the intelligence community.

I have question about the investigation. Isn't it normal for evidence markers to be used during an investigation? I don't recall seeing any markers on the roof or other areas. I find that curious.

Great point! Seems like they opted out of crime scene integrity. I have questions about how far away the rifle was from the body. It appears he did not have the rifle in hand (or within reach) when shot. Could it have been kicked aside by LE when they went up and secured the site? Possible. Just weird.

 

[GRT]

I guess I'm still left feeling extremely uneasy. I only see two options here. Either there was some big conspiracy to leave Trump unguarded or even take him out, or... it's just that easy for a 20 yr old goofball to get a rifle in an elevated position close enough to take pot shots at the president.

I don't really think there was any big conspiracy to take him out, but I do think SS really dropped the ball.

 

[Ruminations]

I'm still going with the third option of local LE unilaterally deciding to "take off early and leave" then getting locked out and otherwise fumbling their responsibilities. It happened at the worst possible time, just as the shooter was accessing his perch. JMO, the killer was lucky, local LE were highly unprofessional. Each outdoor event is unique and I think the odds caught up with them where someone outside SS wasn't doing their job.

As I've mentioned before, outdoor events are very risky. Dangerous things happen occasionally, but don't make the news. The SS just needs to say "no more", unless it's a big state visit or similar event where SS alone has control of planning and security. WH events are also ok because the WH is the most secure location. JMO

Hopping into intellectual weeds....

....it gets a little dicey if candidates have to answer to secret service under some kind of penalty.

It could make the wrong executive branch incumbent decide to do something like have a political opponent shackled by safety rules.

In addition, it is important to make sure government agencies are empowered by their own charters and bylaws of operation so that they can be sturdy, non-partisan bureaucracies that change slowly and act as guard rails against a rogue politician.

The secret service IMO should opine and make recommendations about venues...they are the experts. And if an incumbent is crazy-non compliant, the bureaucracy should be sturdy enough and independent enough to whistle blow about that in an appropriate way without reprisal. If a president, especially, makes themself a target, it impacts us all. Yet, as Kennedy said when arguing with secret service, he couldn't get elected dog catcher if he didn't speak with people. Indoor venues can feel a little locked down and get costly. It's a complex decision the I think should remain with the protectee.

I agree that Crooks got lucky and bumbled into the location LE bumbled out of. A key card!

MOO.

 

[Ruminations]

I guess I'm still left feeling extremely uneasy. I only see two options here. Either there was some big conspiracy to leave Trump unguarded or even take him out, or... it's just that easy for a 20 yr old goofball to get a rifle in an elevated position close enough to take pot shots at the president.

It was just that easy that day. Dumb, dangerous luck.

MOO

 

[Odeto BJ]

Just speculating...We need to know something about the ordinances found in the van and the ordinances found in his car and any other explosive or highly flammable materials found near the site. Also something about the transmitter found with the shooter.
Why? Speculating that the purpose of explosives was to provide distraction. That it was the shooter's intent to initiate the explosion in the van or in the car to distract LE...either before or possibly after the shots were taken.
I would assume that any explosion within earshot would be cause for the SS to remove the speaker from the stage; and that an explosion at a gas station would have caused a whole different round of emergency services to scramble and head for the rally area. So I'm thinking this might be his means of escape...the whole crowd would have been departing pretty quickly if an explosion went off and the SS curtailed the rally. It could be, he intended to trigger one of the explosions and fire at the victim immediately thereafter, before the SS could respond.
What is hard to fathom, is how could the shooter know that the LE-Snipers in the adjacent building been otherwise distracted from their post? Information to this moment, it seems to be extremely good luck that he made it all the way to the peak of the roof, with a rifle, without being confronted by those supposed to be at the windows in the adjacent, higher building.
MOO if there is anything that represents a definitive statement herein.

 

[justtrish]

Transparent about his injury. There was never any report or official update, aside from the words of a close personal friend of his.

I'm not saying he wasn't injured, by any means. I'm just pointing out that his unwillingness to be transparent has led to speculation.

I'd say the unwillingness of the SS to be transparent has caused more speculation than anything. It isn't the victims job to share images of their injury or medical updates. When have we ever asked that of anyone else that is a victim of a crime? I understand he's a public figure, but if it isn't enough that the doctor that treated him and who changed his bandage is sharing info then what is? I am not sure what else we need to know about his injury.

 

[justtrish]

He was shot while being filmed at a rally. He gave a whole speech about being shot at the convention. How much more transparent could it be?

Also I think it might be viewed as insensitive if he would go on and on and keep sharing updates about his injury when we know there are 2 other men who were hospitalized.. (we aren't asking for transparency about their injuries) and another family grieving their husband/father who was shot in the head. Why would Trump want to keep giving medical updates about his injury when those 3 men were also injured. I feel many would be put off by constant updates and be calling him out in a bad way if he did that.

 

[Betty P]

Hopping into intellectual weeds....

....it gets a little dicey if candidates have to answer to secret service under some kind of penalty.

It could make the wrong executive branch incumbent decide to do something like have a political opponent shackled by safety rules.

In addition, it is important to make sure government agencies are empowered by their own charters and bylaws of operation so that they can be sturdy, non-partisan bureaucracies that change slowly and act as guard rails against a rogue politician.

The secret service IMO should opine and make recommendations about venues...they are the experts. And if an incumbent is crazy-non compliant, the bureaucracy should be sturdy enough and independent enough to whistle blow about that in an appropriate way without reprisal. If a president, especially, makes themself a target, it impacts us all. Yet, as Kennedy said when arguing with secret service, he couldn't get elected dog catcher if he didn't speak with people. Indoor venues can feel a little locked down and get costly. It's a complex decision the I think should remain with the protectee.

I agree that Crooks got lucky and bumbled into the location LE bumbled out of. A key card!

MOO.

There's no penalty for refusing the advice of the Secret Service. I think they just tell them they have to provide their own security. They can and do make some exceptions, but should be allowed to make them rare.

Undoubtedly, there are outdoor events that are still acceptable, e.g. an open stadium or similar venue where entrances and exits can be controlled. But the ones that are in a town square or field or similar plot of open land, parking lot or public street are very difficult. A big priority is to control the number of ways people can enter the event so you can have magnetometers set up to inspect them as they come in. Where you can lock it down in the days and hours before the event, control access of staff coming and going. It also depends on the size of the crowd. A candidate standing out in a farmer's barnyard talking to a group of 20 people is different.

I used to attend and volunteer at a lot of similar events. I wouldn't do it today. After incidents like the Las Vegas shootings and the proliferation of guns like AR 15s, where someone can murder dozens of people in a few minutes from a quarter mile or half mile away, nope. Many candidates today don't like to do it, either.

I don't know why some politicians prefer to have a rally outside in the weather where acoustics are difficult to manage, weather interferes, etc. Is there something special about it? It's much easier to have it indoors.

There are some serious concerns about politicization of some members of the SS. Most are probably reliable, though.

 

[Betty P]

I'd say the unwillingness of the SS to be transparent has caused more speculation than anything. It isn't the victims job to share images of their injury or medical updates. When have we ever asked that of anyone else that is a victim of a crime? I understand he's a public figure, but if it isn't enough that the doctor that treated him and who changed his bandage is sharing info then what is? I am not sure what else we need to know about his injury.

The Secret Service isn't in charge of investigations, it's not their responsibility. They're security. The FBI, Homeland Security, etc. are the ones who are tasked with and have the tools to do the investigation. SS cooperates in the investigation with them, but they're not the ones who gather evidence, get search warrants, conduct tests, etc. That's FBI. They do conduct background checks, etc. on people who will be close to the government official.

It's normal for FBI to answer all the investigation questions. As for Trump, I assume it's up to him and his campaign and the health care provider to answer questions about his wounds or defer to the FBI for anything more specific.

ETA: I remember when Bobby Kennedy was assassinated during his campaign for president. The person who held the press conference was his campaign's press secretary - Frank Mankiewicz. Mr. Mankiewicz, who was a private citizen and also a personal friend of Bobby's, would come out to a press huddle in front of the hospital to give updates on Mr. Kennedy's condition. I think the doctor came out at one time, too, to answer questions. (He was also the father of Josh Mankiewicz from Dateline NBC.

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2014/10/24/358464362/frank-mankiewicz-aide-who-announced-robert-kennedys-death-dies

 

[justtrish]

The Secret Service isn't in charge of investigations, it's not their responsibility. They're security. The FBI, Homeland Security, etc. are the ones who are tasked with and have the tools to do the investigation. SS cooperates in the investigation with them, but they're not the ones who gather evidence, get search warrants, conduct tests, etc. That's FBI. They do conduct background checks, etc. on people who will be close to the government official.

It's normal for FBI to answer all the investigation questions. As for Trump, I assume it's up to him and his campaign and the health care provider to answer questions about his wounds or defer to the FBI for anything more specific.

ETA: I remember when Bobby Kennedy was assassinated during his campaign for president. The person who held the press conference was his campaign's press secretary - Frank Mankiewicz. Mr. Mankiewicz, who was a private citizen and also a personal friend of Bobby's, would come out to a press huddle in front of the hospital to give updates on Mr. Kennedy's condition. I think the doctor came out at one time, too, to answer questions. (He was also the father of Josh Mankiewicz from Dateline NBC.

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2014/10/24/358464362/frank-mankiewicz-aide-who-announced-robert-kennedys-death-dies

I am not talking about the investigation though. That can come out later. I am talking about answering for why they didn't protect him. How the shooter got the gun/ammo, when he did things and all those details can come out in time. The SS failed and they haven't answered for that. It doesn't take the FBI to tell us why the roof wasn't covered by SS agents, why the secure area was not larger. The SS are the ones that make all the decisions on security and they failed. They haven't been very transparent. If they did their job, then this wouldn't have happened.

If Trump was killed or in the hospital due to this shooting, then I'd expect updates for sure because his welfare would be in question and we wouldn't have the reassurance of seeing him in public. We don't need updates on a graze wound. He is carrying on with his campaign stops and is publicly seen often so I don't see why we need updates or to see his ear up close to show how bad it was or wasn't.

 

[Betty P]

I am not talking about the investigation though. That can come out later. I am talking about answering for why they didn't protect him. How the shooter got the gun/ammo, when he did things and all those details can come out in time. The SS failed and they haven't answered for that. It doesn't take the FBI to tell us why the roof wasn't covered by SS agents, why the secure area was not larger. The SS are the ones that make all the decisions on security and they failed. They haven't been very transparent. If they did their job, then this wouldn't have happened.

That's all information that comes from the FBI. They're in charge of the investigation, they're actually doing that work, interviewing SS, local LE who were there, etc. That's SOP.

Yes, that House Committee insisted on calling in the SS Director to grill them just a couple of days after the incident. That was an unusual thing to do if they wanted information about the investigation. They should have called someone from the FBI. SS can answer a few questions, but not many. They didn't interview local LE, the FBI probably did. It's their job.

I'm not sure why those members of Congress called that hearing, especially so soon after the incident. I find that decision very unusual and somewhat suspicious, JMO.