PA PA - District Attorney Ray Gricar Mysteriously Disappeared - Bellefonte 15 April 2005 #18

[J. J. in Phila]

It was marked property of the county and it wasn't a good idea to take that into his new life. It just wasn't smart.

It also might be trackable.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

When Ray called Patty to say he was heading to Lewisburg, did he say why he was going there or did she ask? Why, if the mini Cooper was for Patty, was Ray driving it ? Why not just give it to her...or did he buy it for himself and get her name on the vanity plate knowing it would someday go to her?
The smoke and ash could be from the passenger window being down or cracked open and someone talking to him while smoking leaning in the window.

According to PEF, RFG said the he was heading to Lewisburg on Route 192. He liked to drive, and found it relaxing, so she might have thought there was nothing more to it.

On the Mini, RFG claimed that he wanted in her name, in case he was sued. The problem is, he was covered by the county master liability policy, so it would be unlikely that he would face any professional liability.

 

[CuriousCricket]

I have zero problem, initially, looking at PEF. She was, in fact, the first person I looked at.

However, we can to a point where her whereabouts on 4/15 are know. There is a record. It becomes impossible for her, or anyone, to drive two cars to Lewisburg at the same time. It becomes impossible for her to call from a landline in Bellefonte while driving 55 miles away. They do not make 55 mile telephone extension lines.

Once the evidence comes up that disproves the theory, abandon the theory.

Naturally, she was the first person anyone would look at. Just not after she was not pursued as a suspect and after all these years of trying to put things behind here. BTW, I do think the timeframe was workable. I didn't know about a landline call. what time was it? and how do you know she would have to have been 55 miles away at that instance? I think the time may be doable. And call forwarding was probably available in 2005 but I'll have to put my thinking cap on to figure out if my understanding of call forwarding could make it possible. When all this is impersonal and just brainstorming to solve a puzzle, it's great fun to attempt to figure things out. But that moment when you realize you're talking about a hurting, real person . . . well it was just too personal.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

If Ray was doing the investigation, then that made him the target.

Dropping the ball or failing to solve his disappearance wasn’t Ray’s fault. It could be the result of bad luck, a poorly conducted investigation, jurisdictional problems, lack of a task force to coordinate the investigation, sabotage, etc. The FBI was only asked to investigate cell phone and computer records, as well as Rays finances.

Rays friends and family put in a great deal of effort. I hope some day they have some answers.

He was not doing any investigation. That is the problem with the theory.

I cannot think of a single case where RFG actually investigate; it was left to the police.

 

[CuriousCricket]

Snipped for emphasis.

The phone was county owned. Not keeping it, and turning it off, could be a sign that he did not want to be traced. Of course, it could also mean that he didn't want to be disturbed and/or he didn't want the battery to run out.

All of that, of course. It's hard to go back to 2005 and remember what was on cell phones and what wasn't. Did they all have GPS tracking from the beginning? And you mentioned that perhaps he did not take the computer because perhaps they could be traced. I know that if you're getting up to anything you need not to have your cell phone with you. In today's world. But it would make sense computers might also have GPS tracking possible. But would that have been available on laptops in 2005?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Naturally, she was the first person anyone would look at. Just not after she was not pursued as a suspect and after all these years of trying to put things behind here. BTW, I do think the timeframe was workable. I didn't know about a landline call. what time was it? and how do you know she would have to have been 55 miles away at that instance? I think the time may be doable. And call forwarding was probably available in 2005 but I'll have to put my thinking cap on to figure out if my understanding of call forwarding could make it possible. When all this is impersonal and just brainstorming to solve a puzzle, it's great fun to attempt to figure things out. But that moment when you realize you're talking about a hurting, real person . . . well it was just too personal.

Calls, plural. Call forwarding would show up in the phone records. 55 miles is the shortest route to Lewisburg.

If the evidence did not disprove it, I'd say go ahead. This is the same evidence that tells me she was the person helping RFG walk away.

 

[CuriousCricket]

If Ray was doing the investigation, then that made him the target.

Dropping the ball or failing to solve his disappearance wasn’t Ray’s fault. It could be the result of bad luck, a poorly conducted investigation, jurisdictional problems, lack of a task force to coordinate the investigation, sabotage, etc. The FBI was only asked to investigate cell phone and computer records, as well as Rays finances.

Rays friends and family put in a great deal of effort. I hope some day they have some answers.

Which would mean, any call forwarding would have been discovered.

 

[CuriousCricket]

Calls, plural. Call forwarding would show up in the phone records. 55 miles is the shortest route to Lewisburg.

If the evidence did not disprove it, I'd say go ahead. This is the same evidence that tells me she was the person helping RFG walk away.

Well, the FBI would have caught the call forwarding. Which I think would work if someone called the landline, which forwarded to her cell. However, I think any calls from her cell would have the cell number and not the landline number.

How is that about her helping him walk away?

 

[CuriousCricket]

He was not doing any investigation. That is the problem with the theory.

I cannot think of a single case where RFG actually investigate; it was left to the police.

However, he was responsible for going after the maximum sentencing, wasn't he?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Well, the FBI would have caught the call forwarding. Which I think would work if someone called the landline, which forwarded to her cell. However, I think any calls from her cell would have the cell number and not the landline number.

How is that about her helping him walk away?

Left out a not again. PEF could not have driven RFG out of Lewisburg or delivered acar to him.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

However, he was responsible for going after the maximum sentencing, wasn't he?

Not is that case. It was being prosecuted by the PA AG's Office.

In general it was.

 

[Betty P]

Not is that case. It was being prosecuted by the PA AG's Office.

In general it was.

He would have been in the loop on any investigation that took place in his county. He may not have been involved in the day to day investigation. If a criminal group set a trap for him by having someone call, offering to share important information, he would have taken it. He might have consulted others about it. Unusual, yes, but not out of the realm of possibility.

WRT disappearing and having PF assist him, she was investigated, there was nothing suspicious and it would have been out of character for him to do that to his family. Is it possible, yes. But not probable. JMO

 

[Betty P]

Which would mean, any call forwarding would have been discovered.

Unless he was using a burner phone.

 

[Kittybunny]

All of that, of course. It's hard to go back to 2005 and remember what was on cell phones and what wasn't. Did they all have GPS tracking from the beginning? And you mentioned that perhaps he did not take the computer because perhaps they could be traced. I know that if you're getting up to anything you need not to have your cell phone with you. In today's world. But it would make sense computers might also have GPS tracking possible. But would that have been available on laptops in 2005?

I am not an expert in this area but I believe any internet activity on the laptop would be logged by IP address on whatever websites he visited; that has been in place for a long time, well before 2005. That would be one way to check.

It's great to see all this discussion about this case, this is one where I honestly change my mind all the time about what happened. In reading all the recent posts, I am back to believing walk away was a strong possibility. I think it's important to remember that someone's public persona can be very different from the private one. And we can say he didn't seem to be the type, but the reality is we don't know him, and even his loved ones may not have fully known him.

I can envision a scenario where the Mel Wiley disappearance, and then the 2020 vision book triggered a fantasy about simply disappearing from your life, becoming someone else, and there was something about that that really appealed to Ray. Perhaps he started thinking about how he would pull it off as an academic exercise, and then it became more and more real, until approaching retirement, he decided that he wanted to do it. I admit that I don't really understand the psychology of disappearing like that but some people do it.

I've been meaning to pull together cases where a male of Ray's age went missing, or was killed to see what the motives and outcomes of cases were. There have been a few where sitting judges were killed by angry defendants, but they are usually very brazen shootings. No hiding bodies. I'm open to foul play though, for sure.

 

[CuriousCricket]

Unless he was using a burner phone.

That wasn't what I was talking about. I was talking about the girlfriend being on the landline phone making calls the night he disappeared, trying to figure out a way with technology she could appear to be at home while she was actually on the road. People calling the home phone could have reached her with call forwarding from the landline to her cell and likely never have known she didn't answer from inside the house.

However, if she made any calls pretending to be worried about him as she checked with friends and colleagues, then they would have shown as coming from her cell number and not the landline at home. Or I believe that is how call forwarding would have worked in 2005. Plus, the GPS tracking and pinging off cell towers would most likely have pinpointed where she actually was.

Since the FBI worked the phones, even that call forwarding would have been found.

The discussion was how she could appear to be two places at the same time.

 

[CuriousCricket]

Not is that case. It was being prosecuted by the PA AG's Office.

In general it was.

In the local newspaper in the months and weeks leading up to his disappearance there was a great deal written (that I found, prob more) about drugs and especially heroin - its increasing usage, arrests, overdoses and how the community was working to combat it. Drugs appeared to be a very real problem in the county in the early months of 2005.

There was at least one major article dealing with the 4 year mandatory sentence for selling drugs with one pullout quote from someone saying he didn't deserve 4 years for selling a little pot and another who "cooperated" under duress by throwing a non-friend to the DA, but how he would never do that to a friend and fellow dealer. Plus, same or different article on how heroin users stick together and don't rat each other out.

Now, whether RFG actually investigated or not, in January 2005 he had apparently been interviewed concerning the 4-year mandatory sentence saying he called for it except in very rare occasions.

I'm guessing in the drug world that might have been enough to have gotten him killed.

Without the sighting of an apparently worry-free RFG the morning after he drove into Lewisburg, I could easily see the possibility of a drug hit.

Or the rendezvous gone deadly.

The 3 sightings the next day, however, quash a lot of possibilities.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Or the rendezvous gone deadly.

The 3 sightings the next day, however, quash a lot of possibilities.

Snipped for emphasis.

The sightings on 4/16 can be explained by a romantic encounter.

I seriously doubt that a motorcycle gang or drug cartel members said, "Before we kill you, let's go out for pancakes."

 

[Betty P]

That wasn't what I was talking about. I was talking about the girlfriend being on the landline phone making calls the night he disappeared, trying to figure out a way with technology she could appear to be at home while she was actually on the road. People calling the home phone could have reached her with call forwarding from the landline to her cell and likely never have known she didn't answer from inside the house.

However, if she made any calls pretending to be worried about him as she checked with friends and colleagues, then they would have shown as coming from her cell number and not the landline at home. Or I believe that is how call forwarding would have worked in 2005. Plus, the GPS tracking and pinging off cell towers would most likely have pinpointed where she actually was.

Since the FBI worked the phones, even that call forwarding would have been found.

The discussion was how she could appear to be two places at the same time.

Ok. My apologies for misunderstanding.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

He would have been in the loop on any investigation that took place in his county. He may not have been involved in the day to day investigation. If a criminal group set a trap for him by having someone call, offering to share important information, he would have taken it. He might have consulted others about it. Unusual, yes, but not out of the realm of possibility.

WRT disappearing and having PF assist him, she was investigated, there was nothing suspicious and it would have been out of character for him to do that to his family. Is it possible, yes. But not probable. JMO

You hit the nail on the head for another problem.

1. I am not sure that RFG would be in the loop.

2. If he was meeting an informant, why no record. He is taking a 110-120 mile drive to Lewisburg, round trip, for business. Why does he lie to his girlfriend, and to his staff by omission, by not saying that this is where he is going? I can think of a reason, but it is not a nice one.

We know where PEF was on 4/15 and that she did not have sufficient time to drive to Lewisburg while making the calls from Bellefonte. That rules her out as a helper as well.

 

[Betty P]

You hit the nail on the head for another problem.

1. I am not sure that RFG would be in the loop.

2. If he was meeting an informant, why no record. He is taking a 110-120 mile drive to Lewisburg, round trip, for business. Why does he lie to his girlfriend, and to his staff by omission, by not saying that this is where he is going? I can think of a reason, but it is not a nice one.

We know where PEF was on 4/15 and that she did not have sufficient time to drive to Lewisburg while making the calls from Bellefonte. That rules her out as a helper as well.

If the set up was as the Informant described, it means the person who was offering information (as a ruse) was specifically asking for Ray to meet with them. While Ray may not have normally been involved in investigations, he may have made an exception for this case, for this reason. If someone was contracted to kill Ray, they would have made certain to request him only. Maybe they thought killing a street cop wouldn't have been enough to stop an investigation into a drug ring or whatever criminal enterprise they represented.

I'm weighing probabilities vs possibilities with this one. While its possible this was an elaborate staged event to help Ray escape to a new life from his regular life, its more probable that it was related to someone killing him to try to stop an investigation. That's because he was a DA. JMO