PA PA - District Attorney Ray Gricar Mysteriously Disappeared - Bellefonte 15 April 2005 #18

[J. J. in Phila]

I am not an expert in this area but I believe any internet activity on the laptop would be logged by IP address on whatever websites he visited; that has been in place for a long time, well before 2005. That would be one way to check.

It's great to see all this discussion about this case, this is one where I honestly change my mind all the time about what happened. In reading all the recent posts, I am back to believing walk away was a strong possibility. I think it's important to remember that someone's public persona can be very different from the private one. And we can say he didn't seem to be the type, but the reality is we don't know him, and even his loved ones may not have fully known him.

I can envision a scenario where the Mel Wiley disappearance, and then the 2020 vision book triggered a fantasy about simply disappearing from your life, becoming someone else, and there was something about that that really appealed to Ray. Perhaps he started thinking about how he would pull it off as an academic exercise, and then it became more and more real, until approaching retirement, he decided that he wanted to do it. I admit that I don't really understand the psychology of disappearing like that but some people do it.

I've been meaning to pull together cases where a male of Ray's age went missing, or was killed to see what the motives and outcomes of cases were. There have been a few where sitting judges were killed by angry defendants, but they are usually very brazen shootings. No hiding bodies. I'm open to foul play though, for sure.

You post is insightful.

I have looked at prosecutors being killed. In the last 115 years, there have been about two dozen killed, nationally. Several were bystanders or killed as part of a drive by targeting others.

Confronting evil: A history of prosecutor deaths in the United States

The killings of two Texas prosecutors have raised fresh questions about the safety of those who confront evil for a living.

www.foxnews.com

 

[J. J. in Phila]

If the set up was as the Informant described, it means the person who was offering information (as a ruse) was specifically asking for Ray to meet with them. While Ray may not have normally been involved in investigations, he may have made an exception for this case, for this reason. If someone was contracted to kill Ray, they would have made certain to request him only. Maybe they thought killing a street cop wouldn't have been enough to stop an investigation into a drug ring or whatever criminal enterprise they represented.

Why would he come up with the "playing hooky" cover story? How did the person contact him? Why are there no notes in his office? How would someone trying to set RFG up know that there would be no notes about the meeting in the office?
I can only come with one explanation; RFG would be trying to take a bribe. That would account for the lack of notes and the excuse. I do not think it is likely, but that would explain why he would go to Lewisburg. It would not explain the 4/16 witnesses.

 

[Betty P]

Why would he come up with the "playing hooky" cover story? How did the person contact him? Why are there no notes in his office? How would someone trying to set RFG up know that there would be no notes about the meeting in the office?
I can only come with one explanation; RFG would be trying to take a bribe. That would account for the lack of notes and the excuse. I do not think it is likely, but that would explain why he would go to Lewisburg. It would not explain the 4/16 witnesses.

He was probably asked not to tell anyone else about the meeting. He probably also used a burner phone. Recall, there were witnesses in Lewisburg who saw him walking around that afternoon near a park and in a store talking on a cell phone. The phone records for his known cell phone showed no calls made or received around that time, so he must have been using a burner phone. Those were easy to get back in 2005.

Taking a bribe might also be a possibility, I don’t know if he had a history of doing that.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

He was probably asked not to tell anyone else about the meeting. He probably also used a burner phone. Recall, there were witnesses in Lewisburg who saw him walking around that afternoon near a park and in a store talking on a cell phone. The phone records for his known cell phone showed no calls made or received around that time, so he must have been using a burner phone. Those were easy to get back in 2005.

Taking a bribe might also be a possibility, I don’t know if he had a history of doing that.

Well, the witnesses were not sure. They said it was possible.

Where does the person he's meeting get the burner number.

I am unaware of a history, but it would not be advertised. That untraceable bank out could make it more likely.

There is still the problem of how to get RFG to an area where there are no witnesses to the murder. Something like selling someone information would, for the safety of both parties, take place in public.

 

[minazoe]

Does the woman Ray was seen with have a husband or boyfriend? I know they found her so, what did they talk about that day? Did they plan to meet up? what number did she use to reach Ray? what phone did he call her on? did they I M ? ,or did they just run into each other in the middle of the day on a workweek in Lewisberg? Where does she live?

I don't know how many years we have been going on about Ray here, but dang it.

Ray seems moody, distracted
Ray is seen talking on (maybe) a burner phone ( WTH did he get a burner phone and why?)
Ray is angry at the office
Ray is at the office late at night
Ray is dumping a hard drive
Ray is napping ( not the usual)
Ray is seen with woman in neighboring town

why has she not come publicly forward and given a true recollection of that day. What did they discuss?

The quarry is weird
the cig ash is weird

why did Ray go to the Quarry ? is it scenic? was he going to dump the HD there? did he pull in to see if he was being tailed? How far is the Quarry from Downtown Lewis-B?

I also find it interesting that people outside of his relationship don't believe he committed suicide...they seem to
think he's a good joker and puzzler,capable of doing a wild disappearing act. For me this doesn't jibe well with being the uber responsible DA that he was. I find it virtually impossible to believe that not one friend or person close to Ray knows any detail that can help resolve this. That even PF , who claims to be so close to Ray cannot offer even things he may have alluded to in the whole time they were together.

for instance did he ever tell anyone how he would hide a body or make sure a body wouldn't come up in the water ?
did he ever talk about what he would do if he ever found out he was terminally ill or if he was losing his facilities?
Did he ever talk about the never ending pain of the suicide of his brother and how it affected him and his entire family?
Some men never talk about anything. they won't..they keep it in another compartment and will change the subject so fast your head will spin.
would disappearing be better than having his body found..? did he ever wish they had never found his brother ? did he have misguided belief that that would have been better? just not knowing, never knowing?

how would he so completely hide his body? would he know how to hang himself high up in the trees?

For me , if he didn't go home, it feels like someone grabbed him...they came on both sides of the car ...they had to force him out, and hence wiped down the car. Ray was forced into another vehicle and was never coming back.

His scent after all disappears right by his car...no scent trail.

Ray had no reason to wipe prints off the steering wheel. He did not smoke or allow it in the car...I don't know why the car was moved, but maybe he was trying to hide it from someone.

How many years have we been doing this again?

mOO

 

[I am not Sherlock H.]

You post is insightful.

I have looked at prosecutors being killed. In the last 115 years, there have been about two dozen killed, nationally. Several were bystanders or killed as part of a drive by targeting others.

Confronting evil: A history of prosecutor deaths in the United States

The killings of two Texas prosecutors have raised fresh questions about the safety of those who confront evil for a living.

www.foxnews.com

I always found the case of Jonathan Luna, I believe a federal prosecutor from Baltimore, Maryland who was found dead circa 2003 under suspicious circumstances in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania interesting. Still unsolved to the best of my knowledge. Odd that it was missed or overlooked in that reference. There is a Websleuths page on that case: “MD - Jonathan Luna, 38, Baltimore, 4 December 2003”. MOO

 

[Betty P]

Does the woman Ray was seen with have a husband or boyfriend? I know they found her so, what did they talk about that day? Did they plan to meet up? what number did she use to reach Ray? what phone did he call her on? did they I M ? ,or did they just run into each other in the middle of the day on a workweek in Lewisberg? Where does she live?

I don't know how many years we have been going on about Ray here, but dang it.

Ray seems moody, distracted
Ray is seen talking on (maybe) a burner phone ( WTH did he get a burner phone and why?)
Ray is angry at the office
Ray is at the office late at night
Ray is dumping a hard drive
Ray is napping ( not the usual)
Ray is seen with woman in neighboring town

why has she not come publicly forward and given a true recollection of that day. What did they discuss?

The quarry is weird
the cig ash is weird

why did Ray go to the Quarry ? is it scenic? was he going to dump the HD there? did he pull in to see if he was being tailed? How far is the Quarry from Downtown Lewis-B?

I also find it interesting that people outside of his relationship don't believe he committed suicide...they seem to
think he's a good joker and puzzler,capable of doing a wild disappearing act. For me this doesn't jibe well with being the uber responsible DA that he was. I find it virtually impossible to believe that not one friend or person close to Ray knows any detail that can help resolve this. That even PF , who claims to be so close to Ray cannot offer even things he may have alluded to in the whole time they were together.

for instance did he ever tell anyone how he would hide a body or make sure a body wouldn't come up in the water ?
did he ever talk about what he would do if he ever found out he was terminally ill or if he was losing his facilities?
Did he ever talk about the never ending pain of the suicide of his brother and how it affected him and his entire family?
Some men never talk about anything. they won't..they keep it in another compartment and will change the subject so fast your head will spin.
would disappearing be better than having his body found..? did he ever wish they had never found his brother ? did he have misguided belief that that would have been better? just not knowing, never knowing?

how would he so completely hide his body? would he know how to hang himself high up in the trees?

For me , if he didn't go home, it feels like someone grabbed him...they came on both sides of the car ...they had to force him out, and hence wiped down the car. Ray was forced into another vehicle and was never coming back.

His scent after all disappears right by his car...no scent trail.

Ray had no reason to wipe prints off the steering wheel. He did not smoke or allow it in the car...I don't know why the car was moved, but maybe he was trying to hide it from someone.

How many years have we been doing this again?

mOO

According to the Penn newspaper reporter who wrote the article, the woman is now deceased. The Informant who shared this story told by his cellmate also told it to Bob Beuhner, Ray’s friend and fellow DA from another county. The info was also given to Centre County LE.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I always found the case of Jonathan Luna, I believe a federal prosecutor from Baltimore, Maryland who was found dead circa 2003 under suspicious circumstances in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania interesting. Still unsolved to the best of my knowledge. Odd that it was missed or overlooked in that reference. There is a Websleuths page on that case: “MD - Jonathan Luna, 38, Baltimore, 4 December 2003”. MOO

That is why I said fewer that 2 dozen. There was also a prosecutor in Harrisburg that was killed in hit and run.

Other than Luna, which was suspicious, and just over two decade old, there was Thomas C. Wales, a federal prosecutor from Seattle, who was shot from outside while he was in his basement. Still unsolved.

There are not a lot and none of them are situations where the body is hidden.

 

[CuriousCricket]

Well, the witnesses were not sure. They said it was possible.

Where does the person he's meeting get the burner number.

I am unaware of a history, but it would not be advertised. That untraceable bank out could make it more likely.

There is still the problem of how to get RFG to an area where there are no witnesses to the murder. Something like selling someone information would, for the safety of both parties, take place in public.

RFG called the other person. Number on meet-up note, which might have been passed along by someone in courthouse.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Does the woman Ray was seen with have a husband or boyfriend? I know they found her so, what did they talk about that day? Did they plan to meet up? what number did she use to reach Ray? what phone did he call her on? did they I M ? ,or did they just run into each other in the middle of the day on a workweek in Lewisberg? Where does she live?

I don't know how many years we have been going on about Ray here, but dang it.

Ray seems moody, distracted
Ray is seen talking on (maybe) a burner phone ( WTH did he get a burner phone and why?)
Ray is angry at the office
Ray is at the office late at night
Ray is dumping a hard drive
Ray is napping ( not the usual)
Ray is seen with woman in neighboring town

why has she not come publicly forward and given a true recollection of that day. What did they discuss?

The quarry is weird
the cig ash is weird

why did Ray go to the Quarry ? is it scenic? was he going to dump the HD there? did he pull in to see if he was being tailed? How far is the Quarry from Downtown Lewis-B?

I also find it interesting that people outside of his relationship don't believe he committed suicide...they seem to
think he's a good joker and puzzler,capable of doing a wild disappearing act. For me this doesn't jibe well with being the uber responsible DA that he was. I find it virtually impossible to believe that not one friend or person close to Ray knows any detail that can help resolve this. That even PF , who claims to be so close to Ray cannot offer even things he may have alluded to in the whole time they were together.

for instance did he ever tell anyone how he would hide a body or make sure a body wouldn't come up in the water ?
did he ever talk about what he would do if he ever found out he was terminally ill or if he was losing his facilities?
Did he ever talk about the never ending pain of the suicide of his brother and how it affected him and his entire family?
Some men never talk about anything. they won't..they keep it in another compartment and will change the subject so fast your head will spin.
would disappearing be better than having his body found..? did he ever wish they had never found his brother ? did he have misguided belief that that would have been better? just not knowing, never knowing?

how would he so completely hide his body? would he know how to hang himself high up in the trees?

For me , if he didn't go home, it feels like someone grabbed him...they came on both sides of the car ...they had to force him out, and hence wiped down the car. Ray was forced into another vehicle and was never coming back.

His scent after all disappears right by his car...no scent trail.

Ray had no reason to wipe prints off the steering wheel. He did not smoke or allow it in the car...I don't know why the car was moved, but maybe he was trying to hide it from someone.

How many years have we been doing this again?

mOO

Much of your post is inaccurate. RFG was not seen at a quarry. The car was not wiped down. Nobody ever claimed he was angry, or frustrated. The bloodhound traced his scent 20 yards from the Mini to the street. Destroying the data, at least, was a long term plan; he talked to people about it and bought cleaning software in 2004. It was not unusual for RFG to work at night.

The car locked and the windows rolled up, so it is unlikely that he was grabbed and the kidnappers/killers locked up afterward.

We don't know who the woman was or if she was with RFG.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

RFG called the other person. Number on meet-up note, which might have been passed along by someone in courthouse.

How does the person get in contact with RFG initially?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

According to the Penn newspaper reporter who wrote the article, the woman is now deceased. The Informant who shared this story told by his cellmate also told it to Bob Beuhner, Ray’s friend and fellow DA from another county. The info was also given to Centre County LE.

Buhner's account is different, however.

 

[CuriousCricket]

How does the person get in contact with RFG initially?

The courthouses I've been in are often teeming with random people going in all different directions. A note discretely passed straight to RFG -- possibly by someone he knew or at least recognized by sight as being familiar. People just stick their head into an elected officials door for a few words sometimes. I don't think he was inaccessible. Just a casual passing of a note. Even someone asking directions in the parking lot and note passed with a handshake . . . . I found our courthouse to be an interesting place with lots of possibilities. I also acknowledge, if RFG had been contacted inside the courthouse, it was likely by someone familiar with the courthouse. Perhaps even a trustee inmate as they shined floors and worked around out courthouse. A hearty greeting and handshake walking down the sidewalk to lunch . . .

 

[J. J. in Phila]

The courthouses I've been in are often teeming with random people going in all different directions. A note discretely passed straight to RFG -- possibly by someone he knew or at least recognized by sight as being familiar. People just stick their head into an elected officials door for a few words sometimes. I don't think he was inaccessible. Just a casual passing of a note. Even someone asking directions in the parking lot and note passed with a handshake . . . . I found our courthouse to be an interesting place with lots of possibilities. I also acknowledge, if RFG had been contacted inside the courthouse, it was likely by someone familiar with the courthouse. Perhaps even a trustee inmate as they shined floors and worked around out courthouse. A hearty greeting and handshake walking down the sidewalk to lunch . . .

Okay, why didn't that person come forward? The only reason I could come up with is because it was something illegal.

 

[Betty P]

Buhner's account is different, however.

Do tell. The Pennlive reporter interviewed Buhner. Maybe after research, the reporter found more details. IDK.

What was Buhner's version?

 

[CuriousCricket]

Okay, why didn't that person come forward? The only reason I could come up with is because it was something illegal.

A DA has disappeared; maybe you contributed to that. Nah, even if innocent of everything except passing along a note, it was just much easier not to say anything. Especially if your own business in the courthouse that day was less than pleasant. You'd be opening yourself up for lots of unpleasantness. Maybe the person even knew something was likely to happen to RFG and was trusted to deliver the note because his keeping quiet was a given.

I still think the Saturday sightings make this a very slim to none chance. Just trying to problem solve.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Do tell. The Pennlive reporter interviewed Buhner. Maybe after research, the reporter found more details. IDK.

What was Buhner's version?

Buhner's version is that the body was dumped in a non existent town in Montgomery County.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

A DA has disappeared; maybe you contributed to that. Nah, even if innocent of everything except passing along a note, it was just much easier not to say anything. Especially if your own business in the courthouse that day was less than pleasant. You'd be opening yourself up for lots of unpleasantness. Maybe the person even knew something was likely to happen to RFG and was trusted to deliver the note because his keeping quiet was a given.

I still think the Saturday sightings make this a very slim to none chance. Just trying to problem solve.

Not if you want to claim a $10 K reward, and this was innocent.

It is less likely that RFG was in Lewisburg on 4/16 than on 4/15, but it is still likely.

 

[Teche]

Do investigators know the woman seen with Ray? Was it an affair? Was she interviewed?

 

[minazoe]

So I thought they actually located the woman. They did not reveal any info about her, but they know who she is and there is no connection...did this come from the podcast? I thought he slammed the door of his office ( angry) ???
I thought his car was seen at a rock quarry...am I hallucinating? were there not zero prints except a partial on the steering wheel suggesting a wipe down of the car ?