GUILTY PA - Husband charged in cyanide poisoning death of Dr. Autumn Klein

[time]

From the link above, I thought what the mom had to say was interesting:

Lois Klein said she spoke on Thursday with a Pittsburgh police detective who questioned her about her daughter's marriage to Dr. Robert Ferrante, 64, including whether she wanted a second child. The couple have a daughter, Cianna, 6. Ferrante has two adult children. Autumn Klein was taking fertility drugs, officials said.

“She never liked being an only child,” Lois Klein said. “She didn't want her child to be an only child.”

Still, Lois Klein said she hadn't talked to her daughter recently about having another baby and was surprised Ferrante brought it up after his wife became sick.

“During the course of things, he told us they were trying to have another child,” Lois Klein said.

Autumn Klein, chief of women's neurology at UPMC, met Ferrante while she was a student working at the VA Hospital of Bedford, Mass. They shared a common interest in neurology, her mother said.

“She got kind of interested because of his brain, too,” Lois Klein said. “They could converse with one another very easily with no problems because they both understood what was going on. We thought he was a little too old for her, but we came around because he seemed to be the one she wanted.”

Ferrante also seems to has two older children.

 

[time]

"A renowned UPMC doctor was poisoned with cyanide, and now the FBI is helping in the investigation...

...Sources say “extremely high levels of cyanide” were found in Dr. Klein’s blood. The type of levels that would have “knocked her to the floor” in 30 seconds sources say. "

http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2013/05/03/upmc-doctor-poisoned-with-cyanide-subpoenas-issued/

 

[jjenny]

...

I can't figure out why the husband has hired Wecht unless he is disputing that she was poisoned.

According to the article linked in the post above, husband hired Wecht to determine if creatine (which she was taking in an effort to get pregnant) can convert to cyanide. Seems a rather bizarre theory to me. Even if could convert, presumably it would be a small amount, not a large dose. Or all of those who are taking large amounts of creatine would be droping dead.

 

[time]

According to the article linked in the post above, husband hired Wecht to determine if creatine (which she was taking in an effort to get pregnant) can convert to cyanide. Seems a rather bizarre theory to me. Even if could convert, presumably it would be a small amount, not a large dose. Or all of those who are taking large amounts of creatine would be droping dead.

Thanks, I missed that. Yeah, it seems a bit bizarre, but so does taking creatine to get pregnant????

 

[time]

I'm coming up empty handed on creatine being used to get pregnant. Oddly, though they researched creatine.

The neuroprotective role of creatine.

Autumn M Klein, Robert J Ferrante


Neurology Department, Brigham and Womens Hospital, Boston, MA 02115, USA; and Harvard Medical School, Boston, MA 02115, USA.
Sub-cellular biochemistry 01/2007; 46:205-43. pp.205-43 Source: PubMed



ABSTRACT Significant progress has been made in identifying neuroprotective agents and their translation to patients with neurological disorders. While the direct causative pathways of neurodegeneration remain unclear, they are under great clinical and experimental

http://www.researchgate.net/publication/51425548_The_neuroprotective_role_of_creatine

 

[jjenny]

Thanks, I missed that. Yeah, it seems a bit bizarre, but so does taking creatine to get pregnant????

I tried to do some searching, and found nothing that suggests creatine is recommended for fertility.
So, yes, sounds bizarre that she would supposedly be taking large amounts of creatine.

 

[time]

Online CME Activity

http://www.pri-med.com/PMO/Activity.aspx?activity=126349


Written By: Autumn Klein, MD, PhD, Director, Program in Women’s Neurology, Brigham and Women’s Hospital, Boston, Massachusetts

Title: A 28-Year-Old Female With Epilepsy Who Wants to Get Pregnant
Release Date: 12/18/2008
Expiration Date:12/18/2009
Topics: Epilepsy / Seizures, Neurology
Primary Audience: Neurologists
Activity Format: Patient Case Study
Credits: 2.00 AMA PRA Category 1 Credits™

 

[jjenny]

As far as I can tell, creatine is taken by body builders. And I haven't heard anything about body builders dropping off dead from cyanide poisoning.
So unless cyanide was put into her creatine, I don't think creatine just converted into cyanide.

 

[time]

I tried to do some searching, and found nothing that suggests creatine is recommended for fertility.
So, yes, sounds bizarre that she would supposedly be taking large amounts of creatine.

Me neither, I keep searching but am wondering if there is any connection between her research and pregnant women with neurological disorders. I wonder if she even was taking creatine...

 

[jjenny]

Me neither, I keep searching but am wondering if there is any connection between her research and pregnant women with neurological disorders. I wonder if she even was taking creatine...

The two of them (her and her husband) published an article about neuroprotective role of creatine. But even if she took it because she believed it had neuroprotective role, why would she take it in very large doses?
And even if she took it in very large doses, why would it convert to cyanide?
If it had this ability to convert to cyanide, why aren't body builders dropping off dead?

 

[time]

The two of them (her and her husband) published an article about neuroprotective role of creatine. But even if she took it because she believed it had neuroprotective role, why would she take it in very large doses?
And even if she took it in very large doses, why would it convert to cyanide?
If it had this ability to convert to cyanide, why aren't body builders dropping off dead?

I think she could have been taking it because she had a neurological disorder. Not sure if that has anything to do with getting pregnant.

I don't think she could have been taking it in large doses nor do I think it could have converted into cyanide! I also don't know why Wecht would be an expert at this if there is not even any literature on it. What would he do anyway, perform experiments? Conduct a literature review? Talk to other experts?

I agree... I'm not saying my ideas make any sense, but what we have heard so far doesn't seem to make even as much sense!

 

[colette]

The FBI is now helping with the technical part of the investigation. Clip talks about the fact that Autumn was taking large doses of creatine. Also 2 hairbrushes have been removed from home to be tested. She didn't feel well that day when she came home from work. Could she have been given cyanide or something else in small doses to make her sick first ?


http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2013/05/03/upmc-doctor-poisoned-with-cyanide-subpoenas-issued/

 

[coastal]

As far as I can tell, creatine is taken by body builders. And I haven't heard anything about body builders dropping off dead from cyanide poisoning.
So unless cyanide was put into her creatine, I don't think creatine just converted into cyanide.

My daughter, who has intractable epilepsy, took creatine drops 4x daily, in addition to her (several) anti-seizure meds, for several years. I think I remember that it was given to strengthen connective tissue, or muscle fibers, because some of her other meds might weaken these (and she did have some issues with muscle tone).

It was one of those "throw everything at it and pray" things, and she stopped taking it when her doctors and I saw no positive effects in her muscle tone. No one ever recommended it for seizure control or other neurological effects, but that was ten years ago. Things may have changed since then.

FWIW.

 

[Blondie in Spokane]

Doctor's home searched

http://abcnews.go.com/US/doctors-ho...h-called-homicide-suicide/t/story?id=19100947

 

[bourne]

I think she could have been taking it because she had a neurological disorder. Not sure if that has anything to do with getting pregnant.

I don't think she could have been taking it in large doses nor do I think it could have converted into cyanide! I also don't know why Wecht would be an expert at this if there is not even any literature on it. What would he do anyway, perform experiments? Conduct a literature review? Talk to other experts?

I agree... I'm not saying my ideas make any sense, but what we have heard so far doesn't seem to make even as much sense!

I read that Dr. Wecht has been called in to investigate how large doses of creatine may be converted to cyanide in the blood. I have to say even though both substances contain carbon and nitrogen, so do millions of other chemical compounds, and to my knowledge, no chemical substance readily or naturally converts to a triple-bonded carbon-nitrogen cyanide without significant thermodynamic forces -- an uphill, extremely difficult, nonspontaneous process -- at work.

Plus the fact that creatine is a natural substance in our bodies... How does it miraculously turn into cyanide?

 

[jjenny]

I read that Dr. Wecht has been called in to investigate how large doses of creatine may be converted to cyanide in the blood. I have to say even though both substances contain carbon and nitrogen, so do millions of other chemical compounds, and to my knowledge, no chemical substance readily or naturally converts to a triple-bonded carbon-nitrogen cyanide without significant thermodynamic forces -- an uphill, extremely difficult, nonspontaneous process -- at work.

Plus the fact that creatine is a natural substance in our bodies... How does it miraculously turn into cyanide?

And if it did convert to cyanide, there'd be lots of bodybuilders and athletes dead.
Considering creatine is a popular supplement taken by bodybuilders and athletes. Although not specifically recommended for women wanting to become pregnant-so why would she even take it in large doses?
This is a very bizarre theory, to say the least.

 

[bourne]

And if it did convert to cyanide, there'd be lots of bodybuilders and athletes dead.
Considering creatine is a popular supplement taken by bodybuilders and athletes. Although not specifically recommended for women wanting to become pregnant-so why would she even take it in large doses?
This is a very bizarre theory, to say the least.

Yes, looks to me the hubby of the victim is grasping at straws...which makes me suspicious of him.

But if he is involved in her death, I wonder what his motive is? Was he having an extramarital affair? Was she gaining too much fame for his male ego? Did he feel she offended him somehow?

This case is very, very curious...

 

[time]

Yes, looks to me the hubby of the victim is grasping at straws...which makes me suspicious of him.

But if he is involved in her death, I wonder what his motive is? Was he having an extramarital affair? Was she gaining too much fame for his male ego? Did he feel she offended him somehow?

This case is very, very curious...

You'd think he would be wondering if someone poisoned her with such high levels of cyanide, wouldn't you?

It does appear that cyanimide is often used in creatine production, but even if cyanide was a by product, it seems difficult to see concetrations would be so high. Furthermore, it appears from what I have read that if you buy high quality creatine supplements then you are far less likely to get harmful byproducts.

From a Patent (~1999/2000)
"Currently, creatine is mainly prepared by chemical synthesis, i.e. through reaction of cyanamide with N-methylglycine (sarcosine)...The process for producing creatine or creatine-monohydrate according to present invention does not use cyanamide as the raw material, thus does not produce harmful by-products such as cyanide and ammonia."

http://www.google.com/patents/US6326513

From a Manufacturer:
"Creatine is a white, flavorless, odorless fine powder. It is produced from cyanamide and sarcosinate using the “cyanamide route” in a patented manufacturing process. Creatine can contain the impurities creatinine, dicyandiamide, and dihydrotriazine derivatives, and diligent checks for their presence need to be performed during the creatine manufacturing process....At AlzChem, the quality of our creatine is an important safety factor. We produce the cyanamide here at our site, and the sarcosinate is purchased from a certified German manufacturer.

http://www.creapure.com/en/creapure-in-athletics/manufacturer/quality-management

Research Abstract on NIH (2001)
"A major point that related to the quality of creatine monohydrate products is the amount of creatine ingested in relation to the amount of contaminants present. During the industrial production of creatine monohydrate from sarcosine and cyanamide, variable amounts of contaminants (dicyandiamide, dihydrotriazines, creatinine, ions) are generated and, thus, their tolerable concentrations (ppm) must be defined and made consumers known."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11317142

 

[jjenny]

And I still don't understand why she would be taking it, supposedly in large doses. In the video of her talking about prenatal care, she is talking about folic acid and vitamins, not creatine.

 

[time]

But, jenny you are still correct ... why are there no athletes/body builders who've ended up with cyanide poisoning.