PA - Kenzie Houk, 26, pregnant, murdered, Wampum, 20 Feb 2009

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This is just me, but - rightly or wrongly - I cannot imagine trying an 11-year-old as an adult no matter how egregious the crime.

These cases (children who commit murder) confound me. If he is guilty (and there is a great deal of evidence to support that he is), his crime is unimaginably egregious. But to put a human being in jail for life for something he did at the age of 11 boggles my mind...

Answer me this - if this were a capital state, could he be sentenced to death? The entire thing is just heartbreaking.
 
trofanji said:
What evidence did point to Jordan? I think only the evidence made public by the DA points to Jordan, how did you know that it is all the evidence? I think Jordan is in a trap, if he didn't do it, he must admit to the crime just to move his case to the juvenile court and will probably sentenced until he's 21 and if he didn't admit, his case remained in adult court and he face (if found guilty) a mandatory LWOP sentence.
You maybe didn't read this from the same article

http://innocenceinstitute.org/uncategorized/a-question-of-responsibility/

http://www.jordanbrowntrust.org/help.html

I think to get a real picture, everyone should read everything before he convict someone with a crime, LE and DA can fail, just think about how much innocent people where send to death row and where cleared years after the sentence, in this case for me it's not clear that he did it, and I personal think he's innocent! -of course I can't say it for sure! -but sending a kid to LWOP if found guilty isn't the proper answer in a modern and civilized world, even the British James Bulger murder where set free after a few years. Most of The people want in this case not justice, they like to have vengeance!
IMO, of course!
Click to expand...

It has been a long time since I have read about this case but from what I recall everything points to the defendant.

It was his weapon.
He was seen that morning with a blue blanket draped over the gun to conceal it by the daughter of the murdered mother. I see absolutely no reason why the daughter would lie.
He dropped the shell he took out of the shotgun, and threw it down in his yard before boarding the bus for school.
Most likely they have his fingerprints on the shell, gun and have gun residue found on his clothing, shoes or the blue blanket.

I do agree with you though. The evidence that has been released is certainly not all the evidence the DA has. They never reveal their best or all of their evidence until trial.

I doubt that his case would have landed in juvenile court anyway for premeditating the deaths of a woman and baby. In PA a suspect 11 years of age can be tried as an adult...even before this case happened. I am sure there were other factors in the psychic evaluation that were not favorable to him either.

Well for sure what ISN'T the answer is putting premeditated double homicide killers back on the streets in 7 or 8 years or less.

So imo until they have a way to deal with these very violent youthful offenders, rather than giving them a few short years, and releasing them right back out with society to have to deal with them again.......LWOP assures that society is protected from violent offenders who cannot be rehabilitated.

imo
 
southcitymom said:
This is just me, but - rightly or wrongly - I cannot imagine trying an 11-year-old as an adult no matter how egregious the crime.

These cases (children who commit murder) confound me. If he is guilty (and there is a great deal of evidence to support that he is), his crime is unimaginably egregious. But to put a human being in jail for life for something he did at the age of 11 boggles my mind...

Answer me this - if this were a capital state, could he be sentenced to death? The entire thing is just heartbreaking.
Click to expand...

No of course he wouldn't. The Supreme Court has ruled that no one under the age of 18 can be put to death.

I think what some in society are realizing that people form who they are at a very young age and that just may mean they aren't amenable to treatment if they become murderers.

I also think that some in society are realizing if a child so young can premeditate in great detail the murder of another and have the wherewithal to try and cover it up... then they have to consider....... what will these type of killers be capable of doing once they become adults? Already at such a young age they have committed the ultimate act of violence. Already they have crossed over to the dark side.

IMO
 
oceanblueeyes said:
It has been a long time since I have read about this case but from what I recall everything points to the defendant.
......

I do agree with you though. The evidence that has been released is certainly not all the evidence the DA has. They never reveal their best or all of their evidence until trial. .....

imo
Click to expand...

shortened by me

about the evidence

a Quote from the link below

QUOTE wikipedia
the prosecution has a duty to provide all evidence to the defense, whether it favours the prosecution's case, or the defendant's case


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inculpatory_evidence

IMO
 
trofanji said:
shortened by me

about the evidence

a Quote from the link below

QUOTE wikipedia
the prosecution has a duty to provide all evidence to the defense, whether it favours the prosecution's case, or the defendant's case


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inculpatory_evidence

IMO
Click to expand...

Morning Trofanji,

Of course they do,, and they will, but they have a certain cutoff date to do so before the trial commences. Judges will set the date where all discovery has to be turned in. I don't know about this state in particular but in most other states, iirc, it is 30 days before trial. Unless some newly discovered evidence is found afterwards and then the Judge will decide if that will be allowed in. I have seen that happen a couple of times right in the middle of the trial but it is very rare.

They will have pre-trial hearings to keep updated on how the discovery is being turned over and what is left to be turned over.

I am not sure what exculpatory evidence there would be since there is an eye witness that saw this boy with the gun that morning. But yes if there is anything then that too will be turned over.

And anyway, by 'released' I meant what the public knows.

IMO
 
<snip>

Jordan's case is unique because is raises important questions about the quality of homicide investigations involving minors. At Jordan's preliminary hearing in March of 2009, the District Attorney revealed that the state's strongest evidence against the boy was a minute amount of gunpowder residue found on his clothing. The residue was detected on a shirt he was wearing on the evening of February 20th, 2009, and on a pair of pants taken from the residence during a search. Jordan and his father owned several guns and shot them on the property regularly, but this information was not taken into account to explain the residue on his clothing.

One of Jordan's attorney's expressed concern over the pants that had been tested, explaining that Jordan had changed clothes when he went to his grandmother's house the day Kenzie was murdered. He said that as soon as he realized this had happened he turned over the correct clothing to the police. According to Jordan's attorney, the pants Jordan wore earlier in the day were never tested.

more here

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/303839
 
The more I read about this case, the less I understand. I still think I am missing some compelling evidence. I am not seeing any evidence that convinces me that the boy is the killer. The evidence seems to exclude him actually. Only little gun residue on his clothes, no blood? Not even blood on the gun? How is that possible? The little girl changed her story at her 3rd interview? Strange. The boy changed the color of the truck he saw from dark into white? Wasn't it snowing? I am still thinking some of the evidence has not been reported. What am I missing? And since when is an 11 year old an adult? Crazy.

JMO of course.
 
if the boy never admitted to these murders, not even under hours of interrogation, then he's either a sociopath or maybe he didn't do it.
my wife's nephew used to get into all sorts of trouble at a young age. at 11, he crashed the golf cart and some how hung it up on the clothesline. his mother questioned him to no end, and he denied it every single time, never admitted to it, despite he was the only one home who could have done it.

what does concern me in this case is that kenzie had a restraining order against an ex, who threatened to take out her whole family.
now if the boy was present during this and the ex did do it, i'm sure the boy would have been able to give a description of a man. prosecutors say that the ex has one heck of a solid alibi, so i guess he must.

that points to the boy. must children and adults crack under intense police interrogation.
this boy still is denying he's committed a crime?

in these cases where a child is responsible for cold blooded murder (he shoots his step mother then gets on the bus for school like it was nothing) i think it's obvious they are a sociopath and to let them out even after any amount of time locked up; they will just kill again.

usually people only learn how to perfect crimes in lock up. they don't always get rehabilitated. it depends on the individual. with cold blooded killers, they'd probably harbor a lot of anger for being locked up as they can't take responsibility or care to for their actions.
when they get out they are just as dangerous as when they went in.
 
sherlockh said:
The more I read about this case, the less I understand. I still think I am missing some compelling evidence. I am not seeing any evidence that convinces me that the boy is the killer. The evidence seems to exclude him actually. Only little gun residue on his clothes, no blood? Not even blood on the gun? How is that possible? The little girl changed her story at her 3rd interview? Strange. The boy changed the color of the truck he saw from dark into white? Wasn't it snowing? I am still thinking some of the evidence has not been reported. What am I missing? And since when is an 11 year old an adult? Crazy.

JMO of course.
Click to expand...

That doesn't surprise me. Wasnt it said that he had a blue blanket over the shotgun trying to conceal it?

Why would he have any gunshot residue on his clothing? Did he say he was in the room with his stepmother-to-be when she was murdered? I thought she was still lying down?

Well at this juncture ,I wouldn't think, it is time that the DA must turnover all the discovery they have.... since they aren't even close to trial time yet.

The DA may have to come back and give the Judge more of the evidence they have uncovered.

The appellate court wants the trial Judge to make the final decision and that is why they sent it back to him since they believed admitting guilt and having to show remorse violates his constitutional right. But the DA will have an opportunity now to enter other reasons why he needs to be tried as an adult.

The problem I think the higher court had they couldn't completely strike down what the trial Judge ruled and rule he cant be tried as an adult since it is already a law in that state that a child his age can be tried as an adult if the crimes are most serious. The higher court is just recommending that the DA show other reasons so the lower court can rule one way or another without having to use the remorse or guilt issue.

IMO
 
Hi, I want to take a moment and say that there is a lot of misinformation in the media pertaining to Jordan Brown's case. I don't want to violate any rules on this forum and so if links are not allowed please remove this, but <modsnip> informational site about Jordan's case at www.freejordanbrown.com.

You can get a run down of his case from a video I made on youtube here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHGxesOYRLA

Things are not what they seem with this case. There was, in my opinion, a huge miscarriage of justice. The prosecution presented its "evidence" against Jordan on March 24th of 2009. Not a single piece of that evidence connected Jordan to the murders. Here's what they had:

Testimony from a trooper that the shotgun found in Jordan's bedroom smelled as though it had been freshly fired. Why? Because it had been. Jordan and his father were recreational shooters/hunters. They lived on a 55 acre property and they shot their guns on it regularly. Additionally, Jordan had used that gun to win a turkey shooting contest on Valentines day. The murders occurred on February 20th, 2009.

The prosecution's best evidence was a particle of gunshot residue on Jordan's shirt and then on a pair of pants taken from his room. Big surprise there, considering this child shot guns regularly and came from a home with multiple guns. However, the M.E. contended that Kenzie was shot execution-style and that the blast entered from close range. Well, no blood was found on Jordan or his clothing. You mean to tell me this 11 year old child stood over a sleeping woman, shot her in the back of the head, and not a single drop of blood sprayed back onto him, the weapon, or his clothing? Why was his clothing not covered with gunshot residue? Why did they not test his hands for gunshot residue?

There is much much more that is not right about this case <modsnip>. If you want to find the truth then help me look for it. Or...you can read the media reports and take it at face value that Jordan did this. He's been incarcerated for two years. If he didn't do this then it means someone else did and they are walking free. It means that Kenzie and her unborn child have no justice what-so-ever. There are a lot of victims in this sad case...But I truly believe that the answers are there and that justice and and will be served.
 
Melissa,

But weren't the children in the home when Kenzee and the unborn child were murdered?

Did the weapon used match the type of shotgun Jordan had?

I beg to differ with you on fresh smells of gunpowder. Maybe right after the gun was fired it would smell fresh but not after 6 days of not being used. The smell disappates pretty quickly.

Why would the little sister lie?

The DA doesn't have to present all of his evidence that he has at a hearing. Just enough to prove probable cause. It is at trial the case must be proved beyond a reasonable doubt and where all the evidence is entered.

In the AZ 8 year old murder case very little gunshot residue was found on his clothing yet he eventually admitted he was the one who had shot the gun.

I really don't think the DA in that county wants to pin a double murder case on a child unless he is convinced that the child is very guilty.

Why change the color of the truck from white to black or whatever order he changed it?

IMO
 
oceanblueeyes said:
Melissa,

But weren't the children in the home when Kenzee and the unborn child were murdered?

Did the weapon used match the type of shotgun Jordan had?

I beg to differ with you on fresh smells of gunpowder. Maybe right after the gun was fired it would smell fresh but not after 6 days of not being used. The smell disappates pretty quickly.

Why would the little sister lie?

The DA doesn't have to present all of his evidence that he has at a hearing. Just enough to prove probable cause. It is at trial the case must be proved beyond a reasonable doubt and where all the evidence is entered.

In the AZ 8 year old murder case very little gunshot residue was found on his clothing yet he eventually admitted he was the one who had shot the gun.

I really don't think the DA in that county wants to pin a double murder case on a child unless he is convinced that the child is very guilty.

Why change the color of the truck from white to black or whatever order he changed it?

IMO
Click to expand...

if the boy's story is constantly changing ie. truck from white to black, then it's likely he's made up the story.
if it were true, the details would remain consistant i would hope
 
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