PA PA - Kortne Ciera Stouffer, 21, Palmyra, 29 July 2012 - #5

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Yes, and if something bad happened, there would be an excellent self-dense argument and no reason to make a body disappear.

Self defense would be the worst card to play IMO especially when you are a man who significantly outweighs and is much stronger than a 110 lb. woman who you just happened to have previous altercations with in front of witnesses nonetheless. Being that TS would realize this too, I think he'd take his chances on disappearing the body, JMO.
 
As to your last comment, maybe this is why after TS called the police and reported banging noises, and was later questioned about it, he changed his tune saying he never heard any disturbance next door? Now, WHY would he do that? This doesn't seem like the actions of someone who is "normal". Also, from what I understand, TS layered up right away and there has been talk elsewhere that he may not have had a squeaky clean record either.

Perhaps you answered your own question here? TS got the advice of a lawyer, who he did work for, and the advice was, do not talk to the media, but cooperate fully with police. So if a member of the media asked him if he heard a disturbance, would he not say something to the effect that I didn't hear anything, I didn't see anything, I just hope she's ok. etc?
 
Self defense would be the worst card to play IMO especially when you are a man who significantly outweighs and is much stronger than a 110 lb. woman who you just happened to have previous altercations with in front of witnesses nonetheless. Being that TS would realize this too, I think he's take his chances on disappearing the body, JMO.

I congratulate you on your continued out-of-the-box thinking. It gives me something to ponder that I wouldn't have considered on my own. I'm more of an in-the-box thinker, I guess. I was thinking, if an out-of-control angry person banged on my windows until I came outside, and then she took a swing at me, and her large friend also threatened me and my neighbors and the police had to come and force everyone to go to their apartments, and later she showed up at my door to fight with me again, and I had to defend myself and she got hurt very badly, my first instinct would be to call the police and say I was attacked again and had to defend myself instead of how can I dispose of this body and pretend it never happened.

I'll learn to open my mind to possibilities I wouldn't normally consider.
 
Let's continue with the thought that maybe a neighbor, specifically TS harmed or disappeared Kortne.

Assuming it was accidental or like other's have said - self defense. I would think that not only fear of what could happen legally but also fear of someone paying retribution.

He already had a bad rap with Kortne and her boyfriend and friends. He had already called the cops causing at least a couple of arrests. I would think he would also be concerned about a payback.

Just random thoughts here. Not with much weight but trying to weigh all sides.

I wish someone would confess already so her family can have closure and justice.
 
Furthermore, even if it were accidental, it sure wouldn't look that way.

IMO - based on the events leading up to.
 
Well, not to bring anyone down or dishearten anyone or to discourage anyone from going in any direction, but my feeling is the very few known details we have have been pored over many times. They've been sliced and diced and turned upside down and I don't believe there are any answers in any of it. If it turns out later that one of the known (here) actors is found to be guilty, I know who my money is on, based on my personal ranking of not probable to even less probable than that. But I honestly do not feel that the answer lies anywhere in what little we know. I kinda agree with another recent poster. If we're going to think out-of-the-box, let's assume for a minute that everybody is telling the truth and that none of the known actors are guilty. Where does that leave you? Wouldn't that roughly approximate the situation that LE if left with right now?
 
Perhaps you answered your own question here? TS got the advice of a lawyer, who he did work for, and the advice was, do not talk to the media, but cooperate fully with police. So if a member of the media asked him if he heard a disturbance, would he not say something to the effect that I didn't hear anything, I didn't see anything, I just hope she's ok. etc?

That's an interesting thought and even if TS didn't want to cooperate with the media based on legal advice, I question how it helps him to fully contradict himself. From a legal standpoint, I would think a lawyer would tell him, look you called the police, it's on record, and to recount that now makes you look more suspicious than just owning up to it and moving on, but who knows? I can't see how from a legal perspective it would be wise to call cops based on stomping sounds and then turn around and say you never heard any disturbance. I would think that doing something of this sort would alert the media and only further shine the spotlight on TS because he is, in fact contradicting his own statements. JMO
 
I congratulate you on your continued out-of-the-box thinking. It gives me something to ponder that I wouldn't have considered on my own. I'm more of an in-the-box thinker, I guess. I was thinking, if an out-of-control angry person banged on my windows until I came outside, and then she took a swing at me, and her large friend also threatened me and my neighbors and the police had to come and force everyone to go to their apartments, and later she showed up at my door to fight with me again, and I had to defend myself and she got hurt very badly, my first instinct would be to call the police and say I was attacked again and had to defend myself instead of how can I dispose of this body and pretend it never happened.

I'll learn to open my mind to possibilities I wouldn't normally consider.

I see what your saying, but I don't think for one second that Kortne showed up at TS door to fight with him again. That's where we think differently. I think she was outside, I do not believe she approached his door, although I guess anything is possible. I think that he saw an opportunity to get a rid of huge problem that had been plaguing his residence for quite some time. After everything that went on that night I'm sure tempers were high, and maybe TS had reached a boiling point. If he took her from behind, by surprise, this eliminates the chance of the self defense theory, JMO.
 
I see what your saying, but I don't think for one second that Kortne showed up at TS door to fight with him again. That's where we think differently. I think she was outside, I do not believe she approached his door, although I guess anything is possible. I think that he saw an opportunity to get a rid of huge problem that had been plaguing his residence for quite some time. After everything that went on that night I'm sure tempers were high, and maybe TS had reached a boiling point. If he took her from behind, by surprise, this eliminates the chance of the self defense theory, JMO.

And then immediately called the police and K's landlord complaining about stomping, and then went and hid her body somewhere, knowing that he wouldn't be around to answer the door once LE arrived?

I think I understand your position on this.
 
That's an interesting thought and even if TS didn't want to cooperate with the media based on legal advice, I question how it helps him to fully contradict himself. From a legal standpoint, I would think a lawyer would tell him, look you called the police, it's on record, and to recount that now makes you look more suspicious than just owning up to it and moving on, but who knows? I can't see how from a legal perspective it would be wise to call cops based on stomping sounds and then turn around and say you never heard any disturbance. I would think that doing something of this sort would alert the media and only further shine the spotlight on TS because he is, in fact contradicting his own statements. JMO

To put things in context here, this was 8/02/2012, mere days after the incident. Details of the incidents of that evening had not been released to the public and wouldn't for quite some time. Only the police and the very few on location were aware of the events. The media was not aware of the events. He had already been interrogated by the police. He probably already talked to a lawyer. The police might have requested that he did not speak of the night's activities until they complete the investigation. So now someone from the media shows up and all they know is a woman is missing. They shove a microphone into his face and ask him if he heard a disturbance. 8/02/2012.

Do you think a better answer would have been, Disturbance? Why that crazy missing woman attacked me, the police has to be called twice, my house was searched with dogs, my neighbors place was searched with dogs. Disturbance? Yeah, I guess you could say there was a disturbance there on Sunday morning.
 
Well, not to bring anyone down or dishearten anyone or to discourage anyone from going in any direction, but my feeling is the very few known details we have have been pored over many times. They've been sliced and diced and turned upside down and I don't believe there are any answers in any of it. If it turns out later that one of the known (here) actors is found to be guilty, I know who my money is on, based on my personal ranking of not probable to even less probable than that. But I honestly do not feel that the answer lies anywhere in what little we know. I kinda agree with another recent poster. If we're going to think out-of-the-box, let's assume for a minute that everybody is telling the truth and that none of the known actors are guilty. Where does that leave you? Wouldn't that roughly approximate the situation that LE if left with right now?

Along that line....

Kortne left on her own (but why didn't she take anything???)

Other players/individuals there that we are unaware of???

Or was Kortne still at apartment when CP left....oh, my....that really complicates things....

This case causes my head to spin...

:sothere::sothere:
 
In other words, given the timeline and the fact that no events of the evening had been released to the public (purposely) and there was a major investigation going on at the moment and he had probably been instructed to not discuss the matter yet and possibly had already talked to a lawyer, and the media knew nothing, his response seems perfectly reasonable to me, given the circumstances.
 
To put things in context here, this was 8/02/2012, mere days after the incident. Details of the incidents of that evening had not been released to the public and wouldn't for quite some time. Only the police and the very few on location were aware of the events. The media was not aware of the events. He had already been interrogated by the police. He probably already talked to a lawyer. The police might have requested that he did not speak of the night's activities until they complete the investigation. So now someone from the media shows up and all they know is a woman is missing. They shove a microphone into his face and ask him if he heard a disturbance. 8/02/2012.

Do you think a better answer would have been, Disturbance? Why that crazy missing woman attacked me, the police has to be called twice, my house was searched with dogs, my neighbors place was searched with dogs. Disturbance? Yeah, I guess you could say there was a disturbance there on Sunday morning.

BBM

Oh, yeah, that's the ticket!!

:floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

Thanks for the laugh!!
 
Something to consider when using logic, if foul play had occurred, in most cases the assailant is known to the victim, not all, but most just based on statistics. Keeping this in mind, and knowing CP was a friend of Kortne's who did attempt to protect her earlier that evening, and considering that they had a history of friendship, does this seem a likely possibility? Keeping in mind that TS had many altercations with Kortne from my understanding, and quite possibly not just that evening in question. Keeping in mind, that TS may have reached a boiling point if you consider that she nearly attacked him earlier and now it's 4 AM and this stomping is occurring only further enraging him, who does it seem has more motive in this situation to do something unthinkable? It just seems to me, that any other possibility is more unlikely than TS having involvement. I can't believe that a random abduction occurred at this time considering the high police presence and the time of day. I don't want to believe that she walked off either, it's not impossible but it is highly unlikely. What would be the odds of a sexual predator, serial killer, abductor or anything of the sort being involved in this disappearance as opposed to those who were closest to her? Not good! As far as AB is concerned, I may be wrong but I think by now, the police would know if he was in that house. So, that brings me right back to TS.
 
This is along the lines of my theory with one difference. Actually , your proposal is somewhat inline with what Jury's Out posted. It's possible that TS called the cops based on the stomping and then confronted Kortne. But, this way he would be risking a whole lot to call the cops and then commit some sort of foul play and have to cover it up quickly knowing the cops were well on the way. The theory I proposed is a bit different in that there is a twelve minute window where after Kortne stomped on the floor, CP could have been passed out cold, there was an altercation between KS and TS to where some sort of foul play occurred, and only after that he called the cops at 4:12 AM. The difference is that with TS calling the cops after the altercation with Kortne, it looks as if there was a disturbance next door that he had no part in, thus pointing the finger at CP (Alibi). Th problem is that if TS called the cops before he confronted Kortne, it may be obvious to the cops that TS had an axe to grind. While 12 minutes is not a long time between the stomping and the time TS called the cops, I have to consider that tensions were running high and TS was apparently nearly assaulted earlier by KS when the police showed up at 3:30ish. This may have really pissed him off, especially that all of it occurred in front of the down stairs neighbors. So, what I'm saying is that TS's call to the police after he harms her serves as an alibi, but it doesn't work the other way around, instead it would implicate him if nothing else. The police show up at 4:31 and nobody answers the door. In this amount of time from 4:12 AM when TS originally called the police, to 4:31 AM, the time the police actually showed up, what was transpiring? My guess would be that TS did something to Kortne and quietly, I can't elaborate how exactly, but it was done in a manner as to not alert the dogs or CP. When he was done, he either dragged her into his duplex and did not answer the door when the cops knocked and waited for them to leave before he disposed of her body, or he took off with the evidence which is just one more reason why he didn't answer the door when the cops knocked. While, our theories are similar, I personally find it more plausible that TS would use that call to the cops as an alibi and to point the finger in the other direction as opposed to risking killing her and then taking his chances by calling the cops possibly incriminating himself even more so. This would still allow him until Monday morning to get rid of any evidence. I personally feel that 12 minute window between the time Kortne stomped on the floor and the time TS called the cops is the key to all of this.

To sum up and make this simple, when exactly TS decides to make that call to the police either incriminates him or exonerates him. If he makes that call before he harms her it incriminates him. If he makes that call after he harms her, it not only gives him an alibi but also points the finger in the other direction and exonerates him, it's a crucial point for this reason.

BBM: I don't think he had until Monday to get rid of any evidence. In hindsight, sure, it seems that way. But, he could not have possibly known that and would be sure to get rid of any evidence that night.
 
And then immediately called the police and K's landlord complaining about stomping, and then went and hid her body somewhere, knowing that he wouldn't be around to answer the door once LE arrived?

I think I understand your position on this.

Close, except I believe Kortne was ready to go somewhere before any calls were made to landlords or police. I feel this way because TS couldn't predict weather it would take 19 minutes for the police to arrive, which it did, or 3 minutes for the police to arrive as it happened earlier in the night when the call was placed at 3:12 AM and the police were on the scene by 3:15 AM.

I truly believe he did something to her, placed her in his car, made the calls, and got out of dodge. I'm really bothered that the police didn't follow up further. Just think how all of this might be different if CP had answered the door. Just think how all of this might be different, if the police insisted on finding out if TS was there or not. Just think how all of this may have been different if TS car's was searched which I can not find any evidence of!
 
BBM: I don't think he had until Monday to get rid of any evidence. In hindsight, sure, it seems that way. But, he could not have possibly known that and would be sure to get rid of any evidence that night.

I agree as well, it's far more likely that he took care of things right away!
 
Close, except I believe Kortne was ready to go somewhere before any calls were made to landlords or police. I feel this way because TS couldn't predict weather it would take 19 minutes for the police to arrive, which it did, or 3 minutes for the police to arrive as it happened earlier in the night when the call was placed at 3:12 AM and the police were on the scene by 3:15 AM.

I truly believe he did something to her, placed her in his car, made the calls, and got out of dodge. I'm really bothered that the police didn't follow up further. Just think how all of this might be different if CP had answered the door. Just think how all of this might be different, if the police insisted on finding out if TS was there or not. Just think how all of this may have been different if TS car's was searched which I can not find any evidence of!

Gotcha. I understand your theory. I have never put forth a theory here and I don't intend to. Thinking inside-the-box, I often look at what is allegedly said, and I think about the intent of the message, and then I ponder what is being implied as well. It probably limits my thinking. Just to give you a for instance, when CP states that he and K did not not hear LE knock on the door, first it makes me think of Palmyra's Dad's statement about there are places in that building where you can't hear things, and secondly, it implies to me, that in the time frame when LE knocked on the door, CP and K would have been in a position to hear the knock. In other words, they were both awake and she was still there when the knocking would have happened. Surely LE would have given a time when the knock would have occurred and CP would need to explain why nobody answered, correct? And the answer seems to have been, we didn't hear it, that's why. So since I'm bound by this kind of thinking, unfortunately, I'm stuck with the thought that when LE arrived, K was still in the apartment. My thinking makes me favor other theories or sequences of events. But I understand your theory.
 
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