PA PA - Kortne Ciera Stouffer, 21, Palmyra, 29 July 2012 - #5

[Abstar80]

I also find the comment made by the neighbors that they believe Kortne walked away on her own and possibly met foul play (or something to that extent) is odd .. really odd .. why would the suspect that and NOT CP? Assuming they did not know CP and/or what kind of a person he is or can be .. why would they think he may not have done something to her? The only interaction CP had with the neighbors was that night and it wasn't pleasant according to a news article. So why would they assume he didn't have it in him to hurt her? That comment has really stuck with me!

I wonder if it is at all possible that they saw her leave, thought thank god she's done for the night and went to bed. I would think that they would have waited for the cops to arrive if they thought she was still there causing dramas..

Possibly now that she is missing they don't want to have been the "last" ones to say they saw her there and knowing that CP was in the apartment are letting him take the rap for it.

This case is almost up there with the McStay family in as far as the way its being handled and the information or lack of that is coming out.

Its pretty obvious that I think she is still alive. WS fb posts seem to be a little more angry now (jmo) and to me I wonder if she knows that KS is still alive. There seems to be no pleading for information. JMO

 

[looks like rain]

Possible explanations I can think of for why LE seems so secretive and silent:

1. Kortne was a confidential informant that LE failed to protect.

2. Todd Saksek is a confidential informant that LE is protecting.

3. LE is incompetent.

4. LE is murdering girls.

I have been thinking along these lines that Kortne may have been a CI and I've also been very curious about the circumstances that her BF was suddenly taken away that afternoon or evening and arrested for a parole violation just for drinking in a private residence. I really don't think these parole guys hassle anyone that much just for drinking. It seems odd to me.
Maybe, the BF got out of jail earlier than expected and came back to the apartment he shared with Kortne and something went downhill from there.
MOO!

 

[BloodHoundSleuther]

I also find the comment made by the neighbors that they believe Kortne walked away on her own and possibly met foul play (or something to that extent) is odd .. really odd .. why would the suspect that and NOT CP? Assuming they did not know CP and/or what kind of a person he is or can be .. why would they think he may not have done something to her? The only interaction CP had with the neighbors was that night and it wasn't pleasant according to a news article. So why would they assume he didn't have it in him to hurt her? That comment has really stuck with me!

Just a guess here, assuming your referencing the downstairs neighbors, maybe they noticed CP's protective nature in that he stepped between KS and TS, while KS was reportedly trying to assault TS. It really doesn't add up in my mind that someone who is acting in a protective nature would be later accused of harming Kortne. If they saw this protective nature first hand, CP may not add up in their minds as the perp. So, considering that, they may not have any reason either to suspect TS, and if you rule both of those options out, what else is left from a neighbors perspective?

 

[scorekeeper]

I also find the comment made by the neighbors that they believe Kortne walked away on her own and possibly met foul play (or something to that extent) is odd .. really odd .. why would the suspect that and NOT CP? Assuming they did not know CP and/or what kind of a person he is or can be .. why would they think he may not have done something to her? The only interaction CP had with the neighbors was that night and it wasn't pleasant according to a news article. So why would they assume he didn't have it in him to hurt her? That comment has really stuck with me!

perhaps the neighbors do not want to say anything about CP because they may be aware of what he is capable of doing? They saw him also get angry that evening....

 

[LivingJuicy]

Also it is my opInion that if cp did fail a poly that he would be in more of the limelight. Not to say he passed but if he failed, I would assume that local LE would be more on top of him. Nope, as far as we know he's out nightly with MR at the bars and racetrack.

 

[LivingJuicy]

FYI, I'm gla Kortne is getting the attention she deserves. No one is wrong here with our opinions. We all just want answers and justice.

 

[BloodHoundSleuther]

perhaps the neighbors do not want to say anything about CP because they may be aware of what he is capable of doing? They saw him also get angry that evening....

Agreed, but I also believe they may have saw TS angry as well. The difference between TS and CP, is that CP was acting in anger but also in a protective nature, where TS was not showing any protective side at all, just anger IMO. If there's anyway at all they suspected TS, they may not want to say anything about that either based on what he may be capable of doing in the same light. JMO

 

[aszhsh]

What if CP passed out/fell asleep, KS still pissed off and full of energy...still pissed at neighbors for calling cops earlier and BF getting picked up. KS stomps around in anger. TS calls cops...he is pissed, this has been going on repeatedly. Then KS steps out to smoke or even confront TS. Remember cops have been already called but not arrived. TS and KS have confrontation (maybe inside TS home) that ends badly. TS knows cops are coming and turns lights off. Cops either don't knock (lights off, seems quiet) or knocks and CP passed out (thinking drunk and high...out cold) and TS just doesn't answer. Then TS has until Monday am to do whatever. I can't find any article that states TS apt or car ever searched. And he hired an attorney pretty earlier on. Other neighbor gave interview. I believe it would be hard for CP to harm KS and remove her without anyone noticing (flight of steps to leave) and no eveidence found in KS apt or KS or MR car (believe search warrant served on both). He gets up the next morning and bolts...many guys would of done the same. Not sure if she home or where she is and really just wants to go home. Just another theory but would explain why TS called cops if just aftercall something bad happened. Would also explain why 15 minutes or so after call, he not answer cops knocking on door. Just one more possiblity.

 

[BloodHoundSleuther]

What if CP passed out/fell asleep, KS still pissed off and full of energy...still pissed at neighbors for calling cops earlier and BF getting picked up. KS stomps around in anger. TS calls cops...he is pissed, this has been going on repeatedly. Then KS steps out to smoke or even confront TS. Remember cops have been already called but not arrived. TS and KS have confrontation (maybe inside TS home) that ends badly. TS knows cops are coming and turns lights off. Cops either don't knock (lights off, seems quiet) or knocks and CP passed out (thinking drunk and high...out cold) and TS just doesn't answer. Then TS has until Monday am to do whatever. I can't find any article that states TS apt or car ever searched. And he hired an attorney pretty earlier on. Other neighbor gave interview. I believe it would be hard for CP to harm KS and remove her without anyone noticing (flight of steps to leave) and no eveidence found in KS apt or KS or MR car (believe search warrant served on both). He gets up the next morning and bolts...many guys would of done the same. Not sure if she home or where she is and really just wants to go home. Just another theory but would explain why TS called cops if just aftercall something bad happened. Would also explain why 15 minutes or so after call, he not answer cops knocking on door. Just one more possiblity.

This is along the lines of my theory with one difference. Actually , your proposal is somewhat inline with what Jury's Out posted. It's possible that TS called the cops based on the stomping and then confronted Kortne. But, this way he would be risking a whole lot to call the cops and then commit some sort of foul play and have to cover it up quickly knowing the cops were well on the way. The theory I proposed is a bit different in that there is a twelve minute window where after Kortne stomped on the floor, CP could have been passed out cold, there was an altercation between KS and TS to where some sort of foul play occurred, and only after that he called the cops at 4:12 AM. The difference is that with TS calling the cops after the altercation with Kortne, it looks as if there was a disturbance next door that he had no part in, thus pointing the finger at CP (Alibi). Th problem is that if TS called the cops before he confronted Kortne, it may be obvious to the cops that TS had an axe to grind. While 12 minutes is not a long time between the stomping and the time TS called the cops, I have to consider that tensions were running high and TS was apparently nearly assaulted earlier by KS when the police showed up at 3:30ish. This may have really pissed him off, especially that all of it occurred in front of the down stairs neighbors. So, what I'm saying is that TS's call to the police after he harms her serves as an alibi, but it doesn't work the other way around, instead it would implicate him if nothing else. The police show up at 4:31 and nobody answers the door. In this amount of time from 4:12 AM when TS originally called the police, to 4:31 AM, the time the police actually showed up, what was transpiring? My guess would be that TS did something to Kortne and quietly, I can't elaborate how exactly, but it was done in a manner as to not alert the dogs or CP. When he was done, he either dragged her into his duplex and did not answer the door when the cops knocked and waited for them to leave before he disposed of her body, or he took off with the evidence which is just one more reason why he didn't answer the door when the cops knocked. While, our theories are similar, I personally find it more plausible that TS would use that call to the cops as an alibi and to point the finger in the other direction as opposed to risking killing her and then taking his chances by calling the cops possibly incriminating himself even more so. This would still allow him until Monday morning to get rid of any evidence. I personally feel that 12 minute window between the time Kortne stomped on the floor and the time TS called the cops is the key to all of this.

To sum up and make this simple, when exactly TS decides to make that call to the police either incriminates him or exonerates him. If he makes that call before he harms her it incriminates him. If he makes that call after he harms her, it not only gives him an alibi but also points the finger in the other direction and exonerates him, it's a crucial point for this reason.

 

[JaimeSommers]

Just a guess here, assuming your referencing the downstairs neighbors, maybe they noticed CP's protective nature in that he stepped between KS and TS, while KS was reportedly trying to assault TS. It really doesn't add up in my mind that someone who is acting in a protective nature would be later accused of harming Kortne. If they saw this protective nature first hand, CP may not add up in their minds as the perp. So, considering that, they may not have any reason either to suspect TS, and if you rule both of those options out, what else is left from a neighbors perspective?

BBM ... The only way this makes sense to me is if CP had a thing for Kortne. Speculating here, but it would make sense to me in that case that he defends her against others. If later, however, she spurns his advances, then -- given what those who know him have said here about his rep with women -- all bets are off (IMO).

ETA: Some men see women as property. They protect their property but also can turn violent when denied by that property. Again, IMO.

 

[SnoopJohnB]

Given what we think we know, every theory seems implausible for one reason or another, to me. Firstly, I find it completely improbable that TS would go up to Kortne's apartment knowing that her friend was there (who is not a small guy) and risk bodily injury. Let's remember that the stomping did take place, because CP confirmed it, saying it took a while for K to settle down. If CP can confirm it, then he was awake during that time. If anyone in the vicinity had anything to do with this, it was not premeditated, as in, it wasn't planned before that day. Events spun out of control. People were upset and shook up. Can you really believe that someone would coolly reengage hostile people, drag someone out of their apartment and then hide a body and then call the police to cover up their criminal act? And then not answer the door when police came to cement the alibi? To me, that is more improbable than other theories. According to MSM interviews, both neighbors cooperated. The downstairs neighbor said both neighbors allowed their homes to be searched and were cooperating fully. This is not to say that they can't be guilty, but some theories seem more improbable than other to me.

 

[SnoopJohnB]

Or, if you were going to project criminal mastermind capabilities onto normal people, let's say that TS has an Einstein IQ and is cool as a cucumber in a stressful situation. He bravely goes to K's to confront them regarding noise, but only she comes to the door. Suddenly he realizes a moment of opportunity has just materialized. He drags her down the stairs quietly and stashes her in his home or car. He cannot believe his good fortune that the protector was asleep. Being positively brilliant, he considers the exact opposite action of what any normal person would ever entertain under those circumstances (i.e. I just committed a crime I'd like to get away with so, I should call the police immediately). In his mind, he walks through the likely outcome of that action. Let's see, police will show up and go to K's first. Police will likely bang on the door until they get a response. CP will answer the door. He says everything is cool here, we're sleeping. Sorry about that. LE wants to talk to K. They realize together that she is not there. But her shoes are still there. But she's not in the apartment. Both are extremely alarmed by this. Police go to neighbors' and wake them up to ask them if they have seen her. LE reports back to headquarters, calls in more cars. LE asks neighbors if they can come in and look around. CP starts yelling at TS "What did you do with my friend?" They don't let anyone leave the property. They get search warrants if neighbors' are not cooperative.

TS says to himself...hmmm not a good idea. Nobody knows she's gone except for me. If I call police, the most likely outcome will be that everyone will know immediately that she is missing and a search will ensure. I should consider another course of action.

 

[LivingJuicy]

This is along the lines of my theory with one difference. Actually , your proposal is somewhat inline with what Jury's Out posted. It's possible that TS called the cops based on the stomping and then confronted Kortne. But, this way he would be risking a whole lot to call the cops and then commit some sort of foul play and have to cover it up quickly knowing the cops were well on the way. The theory I proposed is a bit different in that there is a twelve minute window where after Kortne stomped on the floor, CP could have been passed out cold, there was an altercation between KS and TS to where some sort of foul play occurred, and only after that he called the cops at 4:12 AM. The difference is that with TS calling the cops after the altercation with Kortne, it looks as if there was a disturbance next door that he had no part in, thus pointing the finger at CP (Alibi). Th problem is that if TS called the cops before he confronted Kortne, it may be obvious to the cops that TS had an axe to grind. While 12 minutes is not a long time between the stomping and the time TS called the cops, I have to consider that tensions were running high and TS was apparently nearly assaulted earlier by KS when the police showed up at 3:30ish. This may have really pissed him off, especially that all of it occurred in front of the down stairs neighbors. So, what I'm saying is that TS's call to the police after he harms her serves as an alibi, but it doesn't work the other way around, instead it would implicate him if nothing else. The police show up at 4:31 and nobody answers the door. In this amount of time from 4:12 AM when TS originally called the police, to 4:31 AM, the time the police actually showed up, what was transpiring? My guess would be that TS did something to Kortne and quietly, I can't elaborate how exactly, but it was done in a manner as to not alert the dogs or CP. When he was done, he either dragged her into his duplex and did not answer the door when the cops knocked and waited for them to leave before he disposed of her body, or he took off with the evidence which is just one more reason why he didn't answer the door when the cops knocked. While, our theories are similar, I personally find it more plausible that TS would use that call to the cops as an alibi and to point the finger in the other direction as opposed to risking killing her and then taking his chances by calling the cops possibly incriminating himself even more so. This would still allow him until Monday morning to get rid of any evidence. I personally feel that 12 minute window between the time Kortne stomped on the floor and the time TS called the cops is the key to all of this.

To sum up and make this simple, when exactly TS decides to make that call to the police either incriminates him or exonerates him. If he makes that call before he harms her it incriminates him. If he makes that call after he harms her, it not only gives him an alibi but also points the finger in the other direction and exonerates him, it's a crucial point for this reason.

This was always my #1 theory. The only motive IMO for CP to harm Kortne would be sexual. Now assuming he tried to initiate sex with her and she rejected him and/or he "date raped" her, there was no evidence found (that we are privy) to her in apartment, in MR's car, etc. Not to mention, no body yet. No sign of struggle, no witness of her body being removed. If there were 3 neighbors quoted in MSM as to witnessing the altercation with TS and Kortne, I would assume that they were nosey enough or involved enough to be watchful.

We also don't know if the neighbors were sober or under any type of influence that night. IMO, being awake, outside with neighbors at 3 a.m., would involve a few beverages but that's just me. Not that booze can be blamed for anything in life, it certainly can intensify an already aggrivated situation.

Also, I don't find it unlikely for a person of their age to pass out drunk and not hear anything. Give me a few drinks and I'm out. Zzzzzzzzzzz! One more thought - On Kortne's FB page, there are pics from 2010 of MR & CP and others in pictures WITH Kortne. It's not like they were newely acquainted. They have a history. I'd be more inclined to focus heavily on CP if they were new friends. I'm not saying an old friend couldn't or wouldn't rape or suggest sex - just in this case, I don't feel that it was CP.

With that said - I don't 100% rule him out either.

 

[LivingJuicy]

Given what we think we know, every theory seems implausible for one reason or another, to me. Firstly, I find it completely improbable that TS would go up to Kortne's apartment knowing that her friend was there (who is not a small guy) and risk bodily injury. Let's remember that the stomping did take place, because CP confirmed it, saying it took a while for K to settle down. If CP can confirm it, then he was awake during that time. If anyone in the vicinity had anything to do with this, it was not premeditated, as in, it wasn't planned before that day. Events spun out of control. People were upset and shook up. Can you really believe that someone would coolly reengage hostile people, drag someone out of their apartment and then hide a body and then call the police to cover up their criminal act? And then not answer the door when police came to cement the alibi? To me, that is more improbable than other theories. According to MSM interviews, both neighbors cooperated. The downstairs neighbor said both neighbors allowed their homes to be searched and were cooperating fully. This is not to say that they can't be guilty, but some theories seem more improbable than other to me.

I hear what you're saying. And agree. The only way I can see a neighbor harming her is if Kortne physically left her apartment and either a. - went to smoke b. - grab something from the car or c. - to instigate an argument that was already started but not finished.

 

[SnoopJohnB]

I hear what you're saying. And agree. The only way I can see a neighbor harming her is if Kortne physically left her apartment and either a. - went to smoke b. - grab someone from the car or c. - to instigate an argument that was already started but not finished.

Yes, and if something bad happened, there would be an excellent self-dense argument and no reason to make a body disappear.

 

[Meems]

I am still not ruling out the possibility (if even a small one) that CP may have given KS some type of "drug" (to calm her down) that perhaps she OD'd on .. no one knows if he found her dead at 7am when he woke up and went back later that night (possibly with help) to dispose of the body. CP may have had access to certain drugs (in his line of work) that would tranqulize large animals that the rest of the public might not have easy access to. Had KS been found with them in her system he would automatically be the prime suspect.

 

[Meems]

Just an FYI for those who may also "entertain" one of my "other" theories ... (there are so many)

"Special K"
Ketamine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[BloodHoundSleuther]

Given what we think we know, every theory seems implausible for one reason or another, to me. Firstly, I find it completely improbable that TS would go up to Kortne's apartment knowing that her friend was there (who is not a small guy) and risk bodily injury. Let's remember that the stomping did take place, because CP confirmed it, saying it took a while for K to settle down. If CP can confirm it, then he was awake during that time. If anyone in the vicinity had anything to do with this, it was not premeditated, as in, it wasn't planned before that day. Events spun out of control. People were upset and shook up. Can you really believe that someone would coolly reengage hostile people, drag someone out of their apartment and then hide a body and then call the police to cover up their criminal act? And then not answer the door when police came to cement the alibi? To me, that is more improbable than other theories. According to MSM interviews, both neighbors cooperated. The downstairs neighbor said both neighbors allowed their homes to be searched and were cooperating fully. This is not to say that they can't be guilty, but some theories seem more improbable than other to me.

I don't believe TS would have gone to Kortne's apartment, especially knocking on her door, knowing CP was there. I truly believe, that Kortne walked out for whatever reason, most likely to smoke. Maybe she needed something from her car, or maybe she was getting ready to let the dogs out and needed something from outside. I know this is out there, but some people do keep dog leashes outside instead of inside. I have neighbors who keep their dog leashes on their car port and others who have them hung for easy access right outside the door. I truly believe that smoking or walking the dogs are the two most likely scenarios as to why Kortne would of stepped outside. And to answer your question, yes, I do truly believe with tensions high it could have happened just this way. However I don't think TS re-engaged hostile people. I think he was pissed off and quite possibly embarrassed about the earlier events of the night. I think he saw a window of opportunity where he could eradicate the problem quietly, there are ways to do this, but I would rather not get that morbid here. I'm also leaning towards the idea that right after TS called the police, he left the residence with the evidence. Heck, he could of had everything ready to go before he even called the cops. This would account for him not answering the door and is far less risky than waiting around for the cops to show up and then having to answer the door with evidence inside. Both neighbors homes may have been searched, but have you found any MSM articles that state TS's car was searched, I haven't.

 

[BloodHoundSleuther]

Or, if you were going to project criminal mastermind capabilities onto normal people, let's say that TS has an Einstein IQ and is cool as a cucumber in a stressful situation. He bravely goes to K's to confront them regarding noise, but only she comes to the door. Suddenly he realizes a moment of opportunity has just materialized. He drags her down the stairs quietly and stashes her in his home or car. He cannot believe his good fortune that the protector was asleep. Being positively brilliant, he considers the exact opposite action of what any normal person would ever entertain under those circumstances (i.e. I just committed a crime I'd like to get away with so, I should call the police immediately). In his mind, he walks through the likely outcome of that action. Let's see, police will show up and go to K's first. Police will likely bang on the door until they get a response. CP will answer the door. He says everything is cool here, we're sleeping. Sorry about that. LE wants to talk to K. They realize together that she is not there. But her shoes are still there. But she's not in the apartment. Both are extremely alarmed by this. Police go to neighbors' and wake them up to ask them if they have seen her. LE reports back to headquarters, calls in more cars. LE asks neighbors if they can come in and look around. CP starts yelling at TS "What did you do with my friend?" They don't let anyone leave the property. They get search warrants if neighbors' are not cooperative.

TS says to himself...hmmm not a good idea. Nobody knows she's gone except for me. If I call police, the most likely outcome will be that everyone will know immediately that she is missing and a search will ensure. I should consider another course of action.

As to your last comment, maybe this is why after TS called the police and reported banging noises, and was later questioned about it, he changed his tune saying he never heard any disturbance next door? Now, WHY would he do that? This doesn't seem like the actions of someone who is "normal". Also, from what I understand, TS layered up right away and there has been talk elsewhere that he may not have had a squeaky clean record either.

 

[BloodHoundSleuther]

I hear what you're saying. And agree. The only way I can see a neighbor harming her is if Kortne physically left her apartment and either a. - went to smoke b. - grab someone from the car or c. - to instigate an argument that was already started but not finished.

100% agreed!