Found Deceased PA - Linda Stoltzfoos, 18, Bird-in-Hand, Lancaster County, 21 June 2020 *kidnapping arrest* #3

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HailedSunSea said:
I would assume that he probably developed quite a 'fetish' per say, for his personal thoughts on the matter. I personally as a man, and would believe that most men in normality, come to a point where you realize that the 22 year old women doesnt really appreciate a guy thats 35, 38, 42 etc. Its a young beautiful women that you see, and that would be fantastic, but its not the way things go necessarily. Its called being a total creep under certain circumstances, and most of the time, if you dont figure that out, it becomes a problem for society I would say. Its awful to think about, but I can imagine he was horny for anything young and fragile, and wanted that, and only that. Its not a normal adults behaviour, he may have just even wanted to be sadistic if that was the nature of his thought pattern, I dont know, but I believe the majority of society doesnt have a rape, murder, sado-masochistic dream to fulfil. Some do apparently, and we know this is true.
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:eek:
 
HailedSunSea said:
I would assume that he probably developed quite a 'fetish' per say, for his personal thoughts on the matter. I personally as a man, and would believe that most men in normality, come to a point where you realize that the 22 year old women doesnt really appreciate a guy thats 35, 38, 42 etc. Its a young beautiful women that you see, and that would be fantastic, but its not the way things go necessarily. Its called being a total creep under certain circumstances, and most of the time, if you dont figure that out, it becomes a problem for society I would say. Its awful to think about, but I can imagine he was horny for anything young and fragile, and wanted that, and only that. Its not a normal adults behaviour, he may have just even wanted to be sadistic if that was the nature of his thought pattern, I dont know, but I believe the majority of society doesnt have a rape, murder, sado-masochistic dream to fulfil. Some do apparently, and we know this is true.
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You raise an excellent point about how older men can be perceived as "creepy" by young women. A fact that I believe takes many men a lot longer to recognize that it probably should! My own daughters (ages 20 & 23) used to have to make their father stop telling his corny jokes to young waitresses when we are out. They would simply say "Ewww" and tell him that it was creepy...

With JS still in his early 30s, I doubt he yet saw himself as an "older man" at all, especially given the fact that he went to prison at 21 yrs old where he saw no women. At the very least I'm sure he suffered a case of "arrested development" as a result. ... and that's before you add any potential pathology!
 
Bucksharbor said:
You raise an excellent point about how older men can be perceived as "creepy" by young women. A fact that I believe takes many men a lot longer to recognize that it probably should! My own daughters (ages 20 & 23) used to have to make their father stop telling his corny jokes to young waitresses when we are out. They would simply say "Ewww" and tell him that it was creepy...

With JS still in his early 30s, I doubt he yet saw himself as an "older man" at all, especially given the fact that he went to prison at 21 yrs old where he saw no women. At the very least I'm sure he suffered a case of "arrested development" as a result. ... and that's before you add any potential pathology!
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You see, were thinking along the same lines here. When I wrote this, I was not developing a motive, or an excuse, but I was IMO underlying possible factors of how the psychology of a person who commits acts such as this. The sad thing is "acts such as this" are still undefined, as far as we know, because Linda hasnt been found yet. So far we know that JS' plan fell apart, because he was apprehended, charged, and is standing trial.
I would say that JS manifested, and obsessed on a sexual fantasy, he might not have known exactly who his target was going to be, but he probably did drive from time, to time, and looked out the car window, and thought, and then acted on this fantasy. The rural Amish landscape, most likely was targeted, because of the fact that it was rural, because in JS' mind, he didnt want this loosely formed plan to run afoul, at least until he fulfilled a portion of his fantasy.
 
Curiosity1234 said:
We never know what motivates evil doers like JS; we can only guess. It escapes me now why I thought his adoptive parents were Mennonites which makes me wonder was he raised Mennonite. Did he harbor ill will against the Amish community for some reason ? Information, evidence, and time might tell us.
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There are Plain Mennonites, that are sometimes confused with Amish. Then there are Mennonites who share similar Anabaptist beliefs with the Amish and Plain Mennonites but do not dress differently or eschew modern conveniences. (I am one of the latter.). Amish have their own schools, plain Mennonites have their own schools, and there are Mennonite schools that are attended by more modern Mennonites and other Christians.

So... having said all that, my understanding from people here who know the family of JS is that he attended a modern Mennonite school that went up to 8th grade and at some point switched to public school. He may have attended a Mennonite church early in life, but not one of the conservative, plain ones.

In Lancaster County, we have a lot of families of various faiths or no faith that trace back several generations to Amish or Mennonite people. We know JS’s family is distantly related to Amish people to whom LS is also distantly related.

There are a number of modern Mennonite churches here where people with no Anabaptist roots are welcome and some independent churches that were founded by Mennonites who wanted to keep most of the beliefs but didn’t want to be part of the official Mennonite organization. Again, my understanding, FWIW, is that JS grew up in a family that may have attended a modern Mennonite church at one time but were never Plain Mennonites.

If I had to guess, I’d think JS considered Amish and Plain Mennonites to make good, nonresistant victims. Perhaps he has a beef with the Amish or is hung up on Amish women. Maybe that will turn out to be discussed in a trial.
 
Bucksharbor said:
I think it categorizes all kidnappings based on the following assumptions of intent:
  1. To hold for ransom or reward, or as a shield or hostage.
  2. To facilitate commission of any felony or flight thereafter.
  3. To inflict bodily injury on or to terrorize the victim or another.
  4. To interfere with the performance by public officials of any governmental or political function.
Of those listed. I think that "to inflict bodily injury on or to terrorize" is the only appropriate category. I don't know if there needs to be specific evidence of that intent.
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Here's a question. If LE can prove the kidnapping but not the infliction of bodily harm, can they still get a conviction under #3 above? Maybe they would just lean on the "terrorize" angle and make a case that of course she was terrorized if she was kidnapped. Can anyone educate me?
 
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Hereshecomes75 said:
There are Plain Mennonites, that are sometimes confused with Amish. Then there are Mennonites who share similar Anabaptist beliefs with the Amish and Plain Mennonites but do not dress differently or eschew modern conveniences. (I am one of the latter.). Amish have their own schools, plain Mennonites have their own schools, and there are Mennonite schools that are attended by more modern Mennonites and other Christians.

So... having said all that, my understanding from people here who know the family of JS is that he attended a modern Mennonite school that went up to 8th grade and at some point switched to public school. He may have attended a Mennonite church early in life, but not one of the conservative, plain ones.

In Lancaster County, we have a lot of families of various faiths or no faith that trace back several generations to Amish or Mennonite people. We know JS’s family is distantly related to Amish people to whom LS is also distantly related.

There are a number of modern Mennonite churches here where people with no Anabaptist roots are welcome and some independent churches that were founded by Mennonites who wanted to keep most of the beliefs but didn’t want to be part of the official Mennonite organization. Again, my understanding, FWIW, is that JS grew up in a family that may have attended a modern Mennonite church at one time but were never Plain Mennonites.

If I had to guess, I’d think JS considered Amish and Plain Mennonites to make good, nonresistant victims. Perhaps he has a beef with the Amish or is hung up on Amish women. Maybe that will turn out to be discussed in a trial.
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I read about the Mennonites and how one group retained the original principles, values, and way of life while the more liberal or progressive group adopted some things (like having television, radios etc.) the old group was against. I just thought maybe his religious upbringing might have something to do with his behavior. I think Amish people and Mennonites are good people. If his religious upbringing had any role in his behavior; that's on him, not on the religion.
 
RumorMonger said:
Here's a question. If LE can prove the kidnapping but not the infliction of bodily harm, can they still get a conviction under #3 above? Maybe they would just lean on the "terrorize" angle and make a case that of course she was terrorized if she was kidnapped. Can anyone educate me?
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I’m no lawyer, but I think ambushing and abducting someone who six weeks later has not returned to her normal life sounds like terrorizing to me.
 
Curiosity1234 said:
I read about the Mennonites and how one group retained the original principles, values, and way of life while the more liberal or progressive group adopted some things (like having television, radios etc.) the old group was against. I just thought maybe his religious upbringing might have something to do with his behavior. I think Amish people and Mennonites are good people. If his religious upbringing had any role in his behavior; that's on him, not on the religion.
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My sense is that, after his adoption, he grew up like most other middle-class church-going kids around here. Living to age 7 as a street kid in a developing country, however, certainly would have had an impact on him.
 
Hereshecomes75 said:
My sense is that, after his adoption, he grew up like most other middle-class church-going kids around here. Living to age 7 as a street kid in a developing country, however, certainly would have had an impact on him.
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I agree that living on the streets affected him too. All of the things that affected his behavior is no excuse for what he is charged with doing.
 
RumorMonger said:
Here's a question. If LE can prove the kidnapping but not the infliction of bodily harm, can they still get a conviction under #3 above? Maybe they would just lean on the "terrorize" angle and make a case that of course she was terrorized if she was kidnapped. Can anyone educate me?
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The statute above states "with the intent to", and does not mean the perp "did."
So for example, if JS pulled a gun on Linda, and JS said "get in the car or I'll shoot you", and she got in that car based on her belief that JS would injure her, even though he may not have used the gun, her belief was he intended to cause her harm. That's "Aggravated Kidnapping."
If Linda got in the car on her own will without being forced, that would be an "Abduction" and not a "Kidnapping."

He doesn't need to pull a gun or a knife either. Just making a fist and pulling his arm back to imply he was going to harm her, is the same as pulling a gun
 
The whole zip tie being found with the clothes bothers me. If dear Linda is no longer with us and he has put her somewhere why would he be so concerned about burying that zip tie with the bra and stockings. Wouldn't that be left with her body? Or did he have a few in the car and just found it when cleaning the car and buried it with the clothes. Could the cut zip tie mean he had her hands tied and the handed her off and cut the tie to release her to someone else? I keep hope alive although I have to admit that it probably isn't likely that she is still alive. Could he have kidnapped and taken her somewhere to hand her off and had her change her dress and put on something else minus her bra and stockings. Then buried the clothes. Why the bra and stockings and zip tie, where are her shoes and the rest of her clothes? Hoping they are with her and she is still alive somewhere. Just don't get the zip tie being found but maybe some of you have a different theory. I live in the next county from Linda and we are all concerned and following .
 
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Wool5401@ said:
The whole zip tie being found with the clothes bothers me. If dear Linda is no longer with us and he has put her somewhere why would he be so concerned about burying that zip tie with the bra and stockings. Wouldn't that be left with her body? Or did he have a few in the car and just found it when cleaning the car and buried it with the clothes. Could the cut zip tie mean he had her hands tied and the handed her off and cut the tie to release her to someone else? I keep hope alive although I have to admit that it probably isn't likely that she is still alive. Could he have kidnapped and taken her somewhere to hand her off and had her change her dress and put on something else minus her bra and stockings. Then buried the clothes. Why the bra and stockings and zip tie, where are her shoes and the rest of her clothes? Hoping they are with her and she is still alive somewhere. Just don't get the zip tie being found but maybe some of you have a different theory. I live in the next county from Linda and we are all concerned and following .
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My guess, and this is only a guess, is that all three of those items were used to strangle Linda, and JS tried to get rid of them the same way as someone would toss a gun into a lake.... to get rid of the evidence.
Initially, I thought he may have buried the bra and stockings as trophies, and the reason he buried them near the tracks is so he later could return via the RR tracks without being detected, using the business as a reference to pinpoint the location.
Now that we've learned they found a cut zip tie there along with the bra and stockings makes me think he was ditching the evidence.... the murder weapons.
 
Bucksharbor said:
According to the Amish America news, the zip tie had been cut.
https://amishamerica.com/justo-smoker-stand-trial-charges-kidnapping-linda-stoltzfoos/#contread
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Thank you for the link.
I see Cadaver dogs found the bra, stockings, and the zip tie.
Those dogs are remarkable if they can detect decomposition in such a short time.

Think about it. If Linda was kidnapped around noon, and he was washing his car around 3, that's a 3 hour window. I have nothing to base this on, but I assume he must have kept her alive for at least an hour and a half if she was spotted in other areas while in his car. If his motive was rape, that took time.
It took time for him to drive from wherever he killed her to where he buried the items and then to drive to the car wash, so for conversation sake, let's go with an hour. That means that zip tie could have been on her for no longer than a half hour after she died.
I read that decomposition starts around 4 minutes after death, but that's from internal organs beginning the process.
So, how much of a scent would have been on the zip tie? My guess is not much at all, but enough so the dogs hit.
Amazing.
 
Wool5401@ said:
The whole zip tie being found with the clothes bothers me. If dear Linda is no longer with us and he has put her somewhere why would he be so concerned about burying that zip tie with the bra and stockings. Wouldn't that be left with her body? Or did he have a few in the car and just found it when cleaning the car and buried it with the clothes. Could the cut zip tie mean he had her hands tied and the handed her off and cut the tie to release her to someone else? I keep hope alive although I have to admit that it probably isn't likely that she is still alive. Could he have kidnapped and taken her somewhere to hand her off and had her change her dress and put on something else minus her bra and stockings. Then buried the clothes. Why the bra and stockings and zip tie, where are her shoes and the rest of her clothes? Hoping they are with her and she is still alive somewhere. Just don't get the zip tie being found but maybe some of you have a different theory. I live in the next county from Linda and we are all concerned and following .
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IMO, they’re trophies that he would’ve likely re-visited.
 
Rocky1 said:
Thank you for the link.
I see Cadaver dogs found the bra, stockings, and the zip tie.
Those dogs are remarkable if they can detect decomposition in such a short time.

Think about it. If Linda was kidnapped around noon, and he was washing his car around 3, that's a 3 hour window. I have nothing to base this on, but I assume he must have kept her alive for at least an hour and a half if she was spotted in other areas while in his car. If his motive was rape, that took time.
It took time for him to drive from wherever he killed her to where he buried the items and then to drive to the car wash, so for conversation sake, let's go with an hour. That means that zip tie could have been on her for no longer than a half hour after she died.
I read that decomposition starts around 4 minutes after death, but that's from internal organs beginning the process.
So, how much of a scent would have been on the zip tie? My guess is not much at all, but enough so the dogs hit.
Amazing.
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4 new details we learned from Justo Smoker's preliminary hearing about missing Amish teen's disappearance I don't think the cadaver dogs really did hit on a scent according to this article. The investigator dug in the disturbed ground without the dogs help and found the bra, stockings, and zip tie.
 
24Roses said:
4 new details we learned from Justo Smoker's preliminary hearing about missing Amish teen's disappearance I don't think the cadaver dogs really did hit on a scent according to this article. The investigator dug in the disturbed ground without the dogs help and found the bra, stockings, and zip tie.
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I thought I read somewhere that the items were found when a area of what looked to be disturbed dirt was discovered in part of their search for LS. Also odd that they were discovered not long after the posted $10,000 reward.
 
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