PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #12

[Trackergd]

What bothers me about the walk away scenario is that from all appearances, he seemed to be happy with P and had a nice pension to retire on. Nothing has come to light (that has been shared or leaked to the public) that would indicate his life was less than ideal. In most cases, "personal dirt" gossip follows the "gone missing" announcement by about two weeks. Unless I missed something, I have not seen any of that, at least not to a degree that would make me think RG would just suddenly walk away from his life with P.

Somehow in my mind, this just does not fit with the financials. Not having anything in his name also does not fit.

We have a pile of disassociated facts that we need to somehow associate and make sense of. Open minds would help that process. I'm jus sayin... :seeya:

 

[SeekingJana]

What bothers me about the walk away scenario is that from all appearances, he seemed to be happy with P and had a nice pension to retire on. Nothing has come to light (that has been shared or leaked to the public) that would indicate his life was less than ideal. In most cases, "personal dirt" gossip follows the "gone missing" announcement by about two weeks. Unless I missed something, I have not seen any of that, at least not to a degree that would make me think RG would just suddenly walk away from his life with P.

Somehow in my mind, this just does not fit with the financials. Not having anything in his name also does not fit.

We have a pile of disassociated facts that we need to somehow associate and make sense of. Open minds would help that process. I'm jus sayin... :seeya:

I have an open mind, I simply haven't felt comfortable posting much for a few months. I hope the atmosphere is changing. I agree with you that he does not seem to be anywhere near the type who would leave a lover wondering where he was and if he was even alive.

I also think that IF he did just leave, he definitely had substantial assets waiting for him. He planned for a long time if he walked away, probably even before he met Patty. I sometimes think of her as a " placeholder" in his life at that time. He was not that committed to her, not really for their age group, IMO, and from what I know about the relationship.

Does the premise that he could have had assets moving out of the country before he met Patty change your outlook at all? It does mine, because then she was someone he loved and spent time with, maybe not meaning to but caring about her anyway, with while waiting to finalize his plans.

I am still thinking foul play at the present time, however. He seems to have been a good, kind man, not the type to deceive or lie by omission. I am a firm believer that some people choose to lie by omission very often. I don't believe he did this. JMO.

THANK YOU again for all your work!!! You are an asset to the WS community and I enjoy posting with you.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

As far as I am concerned, foul play has never been off the table. It is a question of how likely foul play is to explain the disappearance.

I would note that, if I was sure that RFG was walking around in Lewisburg on 4/16/05, it would eliminate a number of specific foul play scenarios. The main one (and perhaps the only one) that would remain is that he would be with a woman.

I am, based on what has been released, not convinced that RFG was there on 4/16/05.

 

[MissJ]

LE was convinced the McStays left voluntarily, yet they were found dead recently. I don't think RFG is a walk away. JMO

 

[Trackergd]

As far as I am concerned, foul play has never been off the table. It is a question of how likely foul play is to explain the disappearance.

I would note that, if I was sure that RFG was walking around in Lewisburg on 4/16/05, it would eliminate a number of specific foul play scenarios. The main one (and perhaps the only one) that would remain is that he would be with a woman.

I am, based on what has been released, not convinced that RFG was there on 4/16/05.

RBBM

And while a possibility, it seems a stretch to me given his character. Why would he spend so much money on his partner, buying her a car, paying what one would assume would be at least half of the expenses for the home, only to walk away from that investment in time, money and emotional attachment without so much as a "hey it's been nice P, but I'm movin on"? I cannot think he would be that cold and that P would not have had a clue. No reason for that stands out.

It "feels" more complex than that.

There is no obvious reason to go underground, yet it still nags at me.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

What bothers me about the walk away scenario is that from all appearances, he seemed to be happy with P and had a nice pension to retire on. Nothing has come to light (that has been shared or leaked to the public) that would indicate his life was less than ideal. In most cases, "personal dirt" gossip follows the "gone missing" announcement by about two weeks. Unless I missed something, I have not seen any of that, at least not to a degree that would make me think RG would just suddenly walk away from his life with P.

Somehow in my mind, this just does not fit with the financials. Not having anything in his name also does not fit.

We have a pile of disassociated facts that we need to somehow associate and make sense of. Open minds would help that process. I'm jus sayin... :seeya:

The pension would go to LG, so if RFG would have money elsewhere, leaving would indirectly provide for her (so would suicide).

As for RFG's life being "less than ideal," there is something that struck me from the start. PEF was quite tied to the area; RFG was not.

As far as I can tell, PEF never lived more than 15 miles (possibly 10 miles) from where she lives now. She is in the same house where she grew up. When she went away to college, it was less than ten miles from the spot where she left for her first day of kindergarten. Her job after college was based within 1.5 miles from that house. This is not someone with a burning desire to leave Bellefonte.

RFG went away to school, 150 miles from home. After college he was out of the house. He didn't stay in, or return to, the same state where he grew up. He was about 200 miles away, and certainly had not lived in Bellefonte very long (less than 4 years). He was known for wanting to travel.

Those are two very different outlooks on life. I have a hard time meshing those two.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Snipped for length:

I also think that IF he did just leave, he definitely had substantial assets waiting for him. He planned for a long time if he walked away, probably even before he met Patty. I sometimes think of her as a " placeholder" in his life at that time. He was not that committed to her, not really for their age group, IMO, and from what I know about the relationship.

Does the premise that he could have had assets moving out of the country before he met Patty change your outlook at all? It does mine, because then she was someone he loved and spent time with, maybe not meaning to but caring about her anyway, with while waiting to finalize his plans.

Here is a possible hypothetical scenario.

Hypothetical scenario. In 1999-2000 some guy's marriage in on the rocks. He wants to keep his assets but also wants out of the marriage. He moves his money to foreign accounts prior to this and then files. The divorce is granted in the late summer of 2001. Okay, could bring the money back into the US, slowly, over time.

On 9/11, Al Qaeda decides to fly some airplanes into buildings (and over my head at one point). The US government begins more intense monitoring of foreign transactions. If someone happened to have a lot of money in a foreign account, it suddenly becomes much more difficult (that is how the Feds caught Elliot Spitzer, money transfers).

So, that poor guy can't bring his funds back into the country, at least without settling off numerous red flags with those nice government officials. He can, however, go to those funds and live off of them.

In this hypothetical, the guy didn't walk away from his life. He walked to a large bank account, and lives happily ever after.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

RBBM

And while a possibility, it seems a stretch to me given his character. Why would he spend so much money on his partner, buying her a car, paying what one would assume would be at least half of the expenses for the home, only to walk away from that investment in time, money and emotional attachment without so much as a "hey it's been nice P, but I'm movin on"? I cannot think he would be that cold and that P would not have had a clue. No reason for that stands out.

It "feels" more complex than that.

There is no obvious reason to go underground, yet it still nags at me.

I'm tempted to say, "Because, he is a man."

In this scenario, he would not have necessarily been "movin' on." It could have been a fling. His intent might have been to return to PEF.

That would be a possible murder scenario.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

LE was convinced the McStays left voluntarily, yet they were found dead recently. I don't think RFG is a walk away. JMO

I am not the one saying, "homicide is the least likely."

Evidence adds weight to some scenarios scenarios, and removes weight from others.

If we found out that there was a lot of money unaccounted for, and not in estate planning vehicles, that would add weight to voluntary departure. It would not prove it.

If we discovered that RFG had foreign accounts, that would add weight to to voluntary departure. It would not prove it.

If we found out that accounts known only to RFG, and to which he had sole access, were accessed by him after 4/18/05, that would prove voluntary departure.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

This is a bit off topic, but I think it illustrates a point, and it is good story.

George Burns, the famous comedian, loved his wife, Gracie Allen. He was devastated when she died. That said, once in their relationship, he cheated on her with a young actress.

In the early 1950's, Gracie wanted a silver centerpiece, that cost $750. George thought it was too expensive and they had a fight. He left that night and, after drinking a bit, slept with the actress.

Guilt ridden the next day, be bought Gracie the centerpiece along with a $10,000 diamond ring. He never told her why, but she later discovered that he had strayed. She never mentioned it to him.

George never knew that she knew, until one day, seven years later, when he overheard her talking to the wife of Jack Benny, Mary. Gracie found a centerpiece she really liked, and said to Mary, "You know, I wish George would cheat again, I really need a new centerpiece."

He went on to say that he thought about Gracie every day since since, visited her grave once a month, and couldn't even recognize the actress he had slept with in the early 1950's. He conclude, "That's how smart Gracie really was."

http://www.adherents.com/people/pb/George_Burns.html

I agree with his assessment.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I am working on getting the redacted forms up. My Sharpie is not dark enough, so I'm trying White-out.

I have Trackergd's permission to post them.

 

[Venom]

It is ironic. I wonder what the neighborhood looks like in the daytime.... I've only seen close up and night video. It might be an area where transients hang out, I don't remember the specifics about Heist's car location now.

Thank you for the memory refresh, .

I'm from York. It's near a Holiday Inn and a wal-mart. On the other side is the York newspaper's building. Haviland drive is a small road with a few houses on it. It connects Loucks Rd. to the entrance way to the West Manchester Mall. (the wal-mart is at the end of the mall) There is a bus stop at the other end of Haviland of where the body was found.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I'm from York. It's near a Holiday Inn and a wal-mart. On the other side is the York newspaper's building. Haviland drive is a small road with a few houses on it. It connects Loucks Rd. to the entrance way to the West Manchester Mall. (the wal-mart is at the end of the mall) There is a bus stop at the other end of Haviland of where the body was found.

Was the body found northwest or southeast of the bus stop? Was it around the old used car lot?

Nice job, BTW.

 

[pinkie60]

Some things that stood out for me, Patti said he was sleeping more than usual and when he decided to take a day off and go for a ride, she was relieved. His brother committed suicide some years prior indicating he might have had similar problems.
After his disappearance, Patti went to get his computer he kept in the closet and it was gone. It was assumed he took it with him, but maybe he did not. Did anyone actually see him with the computer? Could someone else have taken it and was going to blackmail him?
They either found a cigarette in his car or a strong odor of cigarettes in the car and R G didn't smoke. To me that's a red flag. who would have been in his car?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

This shoul be the redacted REV-1500 form.

Note that LG and Goodall's contact information have been removed, along with RFG's SNN, even though it is publicly available.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Some things that stood out for me, Patti said he was sleeping more than usual and when he decided to take a day off and go for a ride, she was relieved. His brother committed suicide some years prior indicating he might have had similar problems.
After his disappearance, Patti went to get his computer he kept in the closet and it was gone. It was assumed he took it with him, but maybe he did not. Did anyone actually see him with the computer? Could someone else have taken it and was going to blackmail him?
They either found a cigarette in his car or a strong odor of cigarettes in the car and R G didn't smoke. To me that's a red flag. who would have been in his car?

Though you will only find it confirmed in a blog, at least one witness saw RFG in the Mini in Lewisburg with the laptop.

Suicide is one possibility, the financials could point to estate planning.

No one might have been in the car smoking; someone could have been leaning into the car.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Not sure if this has been mentioned but, Lewisburg is such a small town, at least that's the feeling I got when I was there. The locals seem to notice those that don't live there, so I would think there would have been at least a few locals that noticed him and mentioned it.

It was "parents' weekend." There were more than the usual number of unknown adults there.

 

[SeekingJana]

Remembering Ray Frank Gricar on this Thanksgiving as I have learned about him: A true American who worked hard, loved his family, and above all, his daughter, Lara Gricar.

If you should be out there somewhere, Ray Gricar, I hope you know in some way how many people care about you and want you to be alive and well. We don't want to find you, we just want you to be OK.

Best wishes for a safe and united holiday to Ray's loved ones. Remember the good times, and prayers for your happiness, or at least, not sorrow, when the morrow comes.

Likewise, Happy Thanksgiving to all the USA posters on this case. Most of you have added to the discussion and understanding of what may have happened. It is a privilege to live in a country where we can discuss things together even though we are far apart in location.

Happy Thanksgiving to our moderators and admins. on this case who have had to do a LOT of work they shouldn't have had to do and never did before until this fall. I am so sorry it came to this.

God bless everyone.

 

[Venom]

Was the body found northwest or southeast of the bus stop? Was it around the old used car lot?

Nice job, BTW.

Do you mean the car lot along route 74 right before the turn onto Loucks Rd? It's still there.
I don't think the bones were found close to the car lot. The articles in the news state the area they were found as between Loucks Rd. and route 74. It looks to me that the area the bones were found in would be northwest of the bus stop.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Do you mean the car lot along route 74 right before the turn onto Loucks Rd? It's still there.
I don't think the bones were found close to the car lot. The articles in the news state the area they were found as between Loucks Rd. and route 74. It looks to me that the area the bones were found in would be northwest of the bus stop.

Thanks. I looked at Google Maps and there a lot of people that live in that area. I'm surprised that children didn't stumble across the body, years ago.