PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #12

[J. J. in Phila]

Why is this important? Because if the line was left blank on the county form, as opposed to an answer (i.e. "0" or "none" or some number), then the filing with Centre County would presumably be different than the filing with the state, since the state return required an answer. If that line item has no response on the county filing, it puts the whole county filing into question. But that is just my stupid opinion. Go figure.

There is nothing but a blank line. That form is listed as the the original.

I do not believe that LG filed a false form nor that, as per the instructions, would require an answer when there is nothing to report.

The instructions, that were previously linked do not state that.

The instructions on the form (REV-1500) state, "FILL IN APPROPRIATE OVALS BELOW." The form should be here: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...=IqIIbBLeI4dDt2gwKYrUnQ&bvm=bv.57155469,d.cWc

 

[Saunterer]

I think it time to this old chestnut to rest.

"We have three or four good witnesses from down there who are definitely I.D.-ing him in the park. They saw him sitting in his car, they watched him driving his Mini Cooper back and forth on Friday."

"We can definitely put him there on Saturday too. There's a museum right here, across from the park. I think it's called Cottingwood House. The employees watched Ray bring his car and park it two or three different times across the street. He came and left, came and left, came back. He got out of his car, sat on a bench."

This is a quote from then lead detective Darrel Zaccagni, quoted by James Renner in an article by James Renner in a Cleveland newspaper. It is pasted here: http://z10.invisionfree.com/usedtobedoe/index.php?showtopic=2226

As for no one who knew him, there was at least one witness that knew RFG, a courthouse worker, that saw RFG that day. RFG was turning on 192 in Centre Hall. This was on the episode of Disappeared.

The area between Lewisburg and Centre Hall is rural, and bereft of video cameras. The SoS has none.

I also think it time to this old chestnut to rest. LE has never once confirmed that Ray Gricar was positively in Lewisburg on April 15, 2005 or after. It is only one of LE's working theories. But that is just my opinion.

 

[Saunterer]

There is nothing but a blank line. That form is listed as the the original.

I do not believe that LG filed a false form nor that, as per the instructions, would require an answer when there is nothing to report.

:drumroll: Duly noted!

 

[J. J. in Phila]

The statement from DZ speaks for itself. He was the lead investigator at the time.

 

[SeekingJana]

There is nothing but a blank line. That form is listed as the the original.

I do not believe that LG filed a false form nor that, as per the instructions, would require an answer when there is nothing to report.

The instructions, that were previously linked state:

The instructions on the form (REV-1500) state, "FILL IN APPROPRIATE OVALS BELOW." The form should be here: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...=IqIIbBLeI4dDt2gwKYrUnQ&bvm=bv.57155469,d.cWc

Some of us ( ) who used to fill out forms which were subject to court subpoena were taught never to leave a blank box, a blank line or space. We put a zero with a strike through line in all boxes which didn't apply, and a large side to side X with our legal initials and the date in any areas which could be written in.

Lara apparently didn't follow this procedure. I don't fault her for it but do wonder why Mr. Goodall didn't help her so that there could never be any nit-picking about what was what or not.

 

[nevereverever]

I also think it time to this old chestnut to rest. LE has never once confirmed that Ray Gricar was positively in Lewisburg on April 15, 2005 or after. It is only one of LE's working theories. But that is just my opinion.

bbm

""We can definitely put him there on Saturday too... "

 

[Kimster]

Please don't discuss information that is available off the forum that our members aren't able to view for themselves. Thank you.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Some of us ( ) who used to fill out forms which were subject to court subpoena were taught never to leave a blank box, a blank line or space. We put a zero with a strike through line in all boxes which didn't apply, and a large side to side X with our legal initials and the date in any areas which could be written in.

Lara apparently didn't follow this procedure. I don't fault her for it but do wonder why Mr. Goodall didn't help her so that there could never be any nit-picking about what was what or not.

It is the instructions. It says to "FILL IN APPROPRIATE OVALS BELOW," caps and all. It isn't actually an oval, but there isn't a box that says "none."

I just looked at the Welfare application (which brought back memories). They ask for your driver's license number but not if you have a driver's license.

 

[SeekingJana]

It is the instructions. It says to "FILL IN APPROPRIATE OVALS BELOW," caps and all. It isn't actually an oval, but there isn't a box that says "none."

I just looked at the Welfare application (which brought back memories). They ask for your driver's license number but not if you have a driver's license.

Yes, I understand. However, in order to keep someone from modifying/ altering records which may come to have great legal weight at a later date, it is always " best practice" to place zeros where possible to indicate " None" and draw lines through other spaces left blank.

I think we agree on this in principle.. the practicality is not always there, understood.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

bbm

""We can definitely put him there on Saturday too... "

At least some in LE are convinced RFG was there Saturday 4/16/05. BB is.

I honestly am not, based on the evidence that is out there.

4/15/05 there are numerous witnesses that independently corroborate each other, and there is physical evidence.

4/16/05 there are three "for sure" witnesses, Bennett and his two employees, who came forward, I think, after he was quoted in the paper.

I talked to Renner some years ago. I though DZ might have mixed up the days; he thinks it is possible.

If I were sure that DZ was right and there were 3-4 other witnesses that saw him in the Mini, we'd only have one murder scenario left, RFG spending the night with a woman.

 

[SeekingJana]

At least some in LE are convinced RFG was there Saturday 4/16/05. BB is.

I honestly am not, based on the evidence that is out there.

4/15/05 there are numerous witnesses that independently corroborate each other, and there is physical evidence.

4/16/05 there are three "for sure" witnesses, Bennett and his two employees, who came forward, I think, after he was quoted in the paper.

I talked to Renner some years ago. I though DZ might have mixed up the days; he thinks it is possible.

If I were sure that DZ was right and there were 3-4 other witnesses that saw him in the Mini, we'd only have one murder scenario left, RFG spending the night with a woman.

Bolded by me. What do you mean- " only one murder scenario left"?

He could have been all alone during the night of the 15th. He could have been harmed or otherwise met foul play on or after the 16th which had NOTHING to do with a woman.

Just because he was said to have been seen with a woman in the SOS doesn't place her ( whoever she is) at a murder scene or in a murder scenario, if there was one.

Can you please explain? Maybe I misunderstood.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Bolded by me. What do you mean- " only one murder scenario left"?

He could have been all alone during the night of the 15th. He could have been harmed or otherwise met foul play on or after the 16th which had NOTHING to do with a woman.

Just because he was said to have been seen with a woman in the SOS doesn't place her ( whoever she is) at a murder scene or in a murder scenario, if there was one.

Can you please explain? Maybe I misunderstood.

I cannot come up with any other reason for RFG spending the night of 4/15 and the morning 4/16 in Lewisburg, without telling anyone where he was unless he was planning to leave on 4/16 and was waiting to make a connection or that he had spent 4/15-4/16 with a woman, That would leave a lot of murder scenarios open, but rule out others.

We can eliminate HAMC, drug dealers, a secret Sandusky meeting, all of that. The reason? None of them would leave him alive and unrestrained on the morning of 4/16.

Random crime, in broad daylight, in a populated area, is also gone, especially with no body.

Jumping into the river (on the first day of fishing season) goes as well.

We'd be talking about that woman being somehow related to his death, or RFG leaving on his own.

The problem is, I am not sure he was there on 4/16/05.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Not really attempting to throw cold water on this, but if we found out:

1. If RFG did a lot of estate planning, and used some vehicles to leave the bulk of his money to LG, that would not rule out foul play. People can do estate planning, and still be murdered.

2. If moved a lot of his money into a foreign account(s), that would not rule out foul play. People can move money into foreign accounts and still be murdered.

Both would lower the chances of foul play, but neither would prove that it wasn't foul play.

 

[SeekingJana]

I cannot come up with any other reason for RFG spending the night of 4/15 and the morning 4/16 in Lewisburg, without telling anyone where he was unless he was planning to leave on 4/16 and was waiting to make a connection or that he had spent 4/15-4/16 with a woman, That would leave a lot of murder scenarios open, but rule out others.

We can eliminate HAMC, drug dealers, a secret Sandusky meeting, all of that. The reason? None of them would leave him alive and unrestrained on the morning of 4/16.

Random crime, in broad daylight, in a populated area, is also gone, especially with no body.

Jumping into the river (on the first day of fishing season) goes as well.

We'd be talking about that woman being somehow related to his death, or RFG leaving on his own.

The problem is, I am not sure he was there on 4/16/05.

The dogs hit only on the parking lot of the SOS. The hit indicated to the handlers that Mr. Gricar likely got into another car, or this is what they surmised from the activity of their dogs.

Is it not possible that Mr. Gricar had a meeting with someone on the 16th, totally unrelated to his activities of the 15th, and met foul play elsewhere, after leaving the parking lot and his locked car?

Is it not possible that 1000 things could have happened to this man which we have not even touched upon ( except alien abduction- I refuse to go there)?

He is MISSING, has been declared legally dead, and has been gone for over 8.5 years. None of us know what happened, not one shred of evidence has led anyone to any single conclusion. The only thing we know for certain is that his Mini was parked in the SOS parking lot, and that a waterlogged laptop which was his county issued laptop was found by anonymous fishermen lodged near a pillar of the bridge. A hard drive of the model which fit his laptop was found separately but with damage too severe for any data recovery, it is impossible to state without any margin of error that the hard drive belongs in the laptop as a factory assembled set.

He's missing, but his car's not. Add that info to what the dog experts said, and I think there is a good case to be made for him getting into another vehicle. Maybe to leave town in alive and well, which I sincerely hope, or maybe to be driven to his destination of death by someone he believed to be trustworthy.
Not all bad men wear black hats.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

The dogs hit only on the parking lot of the SOS. The hit indicated to the handlers that Mr. Gricar likely got into another car, or this is what they surmised from the activity of their dogs.

Is it not possible that Mr. Gricar had a meeting with someone on the 16th, totally unrelated to his activities of the 15th, and met foul play elsewhere, after leaving the parking lot and his locked car?

Is it not possible that 1000 things could have happened to this man which we have not even touched upon ( except alien abduction- I refuse to go there)?

He is MISSING, has been declared legally dead, and has been gone for over 8.5 years. None of us know what happened, not one shred of evidence has led anyone to any single conclusion. The only thing we know for certain is that his Mini was parked in the SOS parking lot, and that a waterlogged laptop which was his county issued laptop was found by anonymous fishermen lodged near a pillar of the bridge. A hard drive of the model which fit his laptop was found separately but with damage too severe for any data recovery, it is impossible to state without any margin of error that the hard drive belongs in the laptop as a factory assembled set.

He's missing, but his car's not. Add that info to what the dog experts said, and I think there is a good case to be made for him getting into another vehicle. Maybe to leave town in alive and well, which I sincerely hope, or maybe to be driven to his destination of death by someone he believed to be trustworthy.
Not all bad men wear black hats.

Well, my comments assume that we get more evidence.

If there would be this evidence, and we were sure RFG was alive on 4/16, we'd have to ask, "Why did RFG spend the night, incommunicado, away from home?" That would not rule out foul play, but it would rule out numerous foul play scenarios. Something could have happened to him, but a lot of what is discussed could not have happened to him.

 

[SeekingJana]

Well, my comments assume that we get more evidence.

If there would be this evidence, and we were sure RFG was alive on 4/16, we'd have to ask, "Why did RFG spend the night, incommunicado, away from home?" That would not rule out foul play, but it would rule out numerous foul play scenarios. Something could have happened to him, but a lot of what is discussed could not have happened to him.

I can think of at least 10 rational reasons he might not be known to have made a phone call to Bellefonte.
1) We don't have phone records. We don't know who he may have phoned and left messages with or not. This is part of an ongoing investigation.
2) Maybe his cell phone had extremely poor reception in the area in which he was located ( like mine does at my house- it's frustrating).
3) Maybe the battery was dead. I've never seen the status of the battery addressed.
4) Maybe he was BUSY thinking and planning, and time got away from him.
5) He really didn't owe anyone an explanation for anything. No one does for one night unless a minor child's welfare is at stake.
6) Maybe he was not alone, and couldn't easily converse.
7) Maybe he was in a situation with another person or other people where a " call home" would have been an unwelcomed event, or an embarrassment.
8) Maybe he tried to call Patty while she was at the gym. Again, we do not know for sure. We only know the last time he was reported to have spoken with someone, and it is said to be her.
9) Maybe he was not able to reach his phone in his locked car physically.
10) Maybe he had loss of speech- a gag, for instance, or maybe injuries to his fingers/ hands/ arms which would have impeded button tapping.
11) Maybe, if one follows the train of thought that he walked away, his walking away and shedding his old life happened when he arrived in Lewisburg. He had already called Patty once on the 15th. She was not his caretaker.
12) Maybe threats were made to him regarding a family member or friend if he communicated his whereabouts.
13) Maybe he didn't want another personal cell phone charge on his work phone ( hey- it really used to happen back when call charges out of area were high).
14) Maybe he was held at gunpoint and could not call anyone for any reason.
15) Maybe there were no phone booths available to use with his home calling plan.

And so forth and so on. I don't know, you don't know, we collectively don't know.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Respectfully snipped.

I can think of at least 10 rational reasons he might not be known to have made a phone call to Bellefonte.
1) We don't have phone records. We don't know who he may have phoned and left messages with or not. This is part of an ongoing investigation.
2) Maybe his cell phone had extremely poor reception in the area in which he was located ( like mine does at my house- it's frustrating).
3) Maybe the battery was dead. I've never seen the status of the battery addressed.

Coverage in Lewisburg (a college town) is fine. LE didn't immediately search in Lewisburg, which the would have done had the phone come from there. I don't know if voicemail would be tied to the battery, but it was working on 4/16; the CDT tried to call him.

4) Maybe he was BUSY thinking and planning, and time got away from him.
5) He really didn't owe anyone an explanation for anything. No one does for one night unless a minor child's welfare is at stake.
6) Maybe he was not alone, and couldn't easily converse.
7) Maybe he was in a situation with another person or other people where a " call home" would have been an unwelcomed event, or an embarrassment.

Planning what and why overnight? I'll give some discussion of these later. Possible.

He might not have owed anyone, but it would have sort of been expected to call at least the morning.

8) Maybe he tried to call Patty while she was at the gym. Again, we do not know for sure. We only know the last time he was reported to have spoken with someone, and it is said to be her.

See above.

9) Maybe he was not able to reach his phone in his locked car physically.
10) Maybe he had loss of speech- a gag, for instance, or maybe injuries to his fingers/ hands/ arms which would have impeded button tapping.

If he was alive and well, and seen on 4/16, this didn't happen.

11) Maybe, if one follows the train of thought that he walked away, his walking away and shedding his old life happened when he arrived in Lewisburg. He had already called Patty once on the 15th. She was not his caretaker.
12) Maybe threats were made to him regarding a family member or friend if he communicated his whereabouts.

Possible, but why would the threatening person let him walk around.

13) Maybe he didn't want another personal cell phone charge on his work phone ( hey- it really used to happen back when call charges out of area were high).

His last call was about the dog.

14) Maybe he was held at gunpoint and could not call anyone for any reason.

Why let him walk around?

15) Maybe there were no phone booths available to use with his home calling plan.

Why not call collect, if necessary?

Remember, the premise is that the 4/16 witnesses are correct.

4-7, 11, are possible.

 

[Ravynne]

Not sure if this has been mentioned but, Lewisburg is such a small town, at least that's the feeling I got when I was there. The locals seem to notice those that don't live there, so I would think there would have been at least a few locals that noticed him and mentioned it.

 

[SeekingJana]

Respectfully snipped.



Coverage in Lewisburg (a college town) is fine. LE didn't immediately search in Lewisburg, which the would have done had the phone come from there. I don't know if voicemail would be tied to the battery, but it was working on 4/16; the CDT tried to call him.



Planning what and why overnight? I'll give some discussion of these later. Possible.

He might not have owed anyone, but it would have sort of been expected to call at least the morning.



See above.



If he was alive and well, and seen on 4/16, this didn't happen.



Possible, but why would the threatening person let him walk around.



His last call was about the dog.



Why let him walk around?



Why not call collect, if necessary?

Remember, the premise is that the 4/16 witnesses are correct.

4-7, 11, are possible.

IDK why or why not about so many things in his case. Certainly about why a man who might have been in a car he didn't want to be in couldn't call Patty Fo., Bob B or Steve S. , another friend, or done the prudent thing and just dialed 911.

I've been in situations of personal danger when I could not expend one ounce of energy or attention from the situation to call 911. Once was while another, larger car was trying to force me off the road. He was a recently retired cop.
I didn't stand a chance, I bet you think. Wrong. I spun him right round, baby right round, using the bumper hit and spin trick and left him in a ditch.
Then I used my phone but not while 100% had to go to the situation at hand. You kind of have to prioritize when you are looking death in the face. And my stalker wanted me harmed if not dead.

The human spirit and mind can do incredible things when push comes to shove. I have a feeling that if Ray Gricar isn't alive, he did give his killers the best fight he could give under his set of circumstances. It's human nature, and the smarter and more trained he was, the greater the likelihood that he could be successful.

For all we know, the woman in the SOS could have had a loaded gun aimed at Ray for the time they were together. In a small hand held purse, in the pocket of a coat, Bogie- style. Smiling and talking to Ray the entire time.
We just don't know whether she was friend or foe and LE says they don't know either.

The ONE thing I doubt he would do in the daytime would be to get into a car with a stranger or strangers. This is personal protection 101. The intended victim has the advantage as long as he or she is not taken out of their personal zone ( his car, a motel room, a B and B room, the library, etc.) and then is put or willingly goes to another vehicle, which is the danger zone.

He knew this. He knew it from day in and day out prosecution of kidnappers, of pimps, of others who would separate a person from their own zone of comfort and put them into danger. Therefore, I would expect his resistance to be very high. His awareness to be quite acute.

Drugging him with GHB or another similar drug or using a stun gun on him would remove resistance long enough to kidnap him regardless of his wits. IDK if anything chemical or mechanical was used against him, but it's worth thinking about in the face of the high awareness I believe he did possess naturally if foul play came into the picture.

When he came around again, zap him again with a stun gun, chloroform him or use something like Ketamine which is readily available to farmers with large livestock. Ketamine would be my perfect choice and can even be pre-loaded into a " gun" type injector for those who don't want to get too close to the bull when jabbing with medication.

Enough. We don't know what happened, but SOMETHING happened in Lewisburg. OR not too far away and his car was driven to where it was found by someone else. IDK which.

We can't rule out much of anything. Or definitely rule in much either. However, the more I think of how quickly drugs work and how they are administered, I realize that I have not been using that part of my knowledge for over 8 years in connection with this case. ANYONE who can read can make GHB. Anyone with large livestock and a vet can get injectable Ketamine. That covers things I had not thought about previously WRT forcible kidnapping or snatching him.

 

[Trackergd]

I await Trackergd's original information, which has apparently only been divulged (in full) to J.J. in Phila. I also await J.J.'s link(s) proving what he has alleged (post-declaration).

Until then, all I can say is it seems obvious that a lawyer would not charge 15K to assist in the administration of a 1K estate...and that that is just MOO.

I regret that I only had time in the last week to send a copy of the file to J.J. I am filling in for folks on vacation and will be for the next week or so. I will get to you and email you a copy. I only have about ten minutes a day to get on here and post.

It was not meant as a slight to you in a any way. J.J. had a number of other financial documents and I made the assumption that with the entire package of information, J.J. might be able to make sense of the financials and what might be missing.

I am quite sorry if you felt left out. It was not intentional. I will get you a copy emailed.