PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #12

[J. J. in Phila]

I would only note that this has nothing to do with the discussion at hand, in that there is no evidence that LG (as trustee) set up any joint accounts.

I think it would make it unlikely that she did.

There has been a suggestion that LG may have moved money into joint accounts or that she had set up a trust.

As a joint account holder, I believe LG could have legally closed the account at any time by depositing the money in some other account.

That would indicate any joint account did exist before LG became trustee. That is consistent with what DZ said in "Missed Leads." I don't find it unusual for RFG, a man in his late 50's, unmarried, to put his daughter, his closest relative, on his accounts.

That would partly explain why the estate was so low.

It would not explain why RFG's interest income was so low in 2004 (and 2005). Some things could explain that; RFG putting his money in a irrevocable trust for his daughter, or RFG transferring his money to his daughter both could explain that. Neither explanation is consistent with retirement plans. They would be consistent RFG not planning to be there for retirement.

Estate planning is consistent with RFG anticipating death, either legally or in reality, or both.

 

[Saunterer]

The main issue, however, is why is so little interest income being generated in 2004, prior to LG assuming trusteeship?

Maybe because the interest income was unreportable in the statement of financial interests filed with the Ethics Commission? I have already given the links whereby this is entirely, legally possible. JMOO.

 

[Saunterer]

I think it would make it unlikely that she did.

There has been a suggestion that LG may have moved money into joint accounts or that she had set up a trust.

Link?

That would indicate any joint account did exist before LG became trustee. That is consistent with what DZ said in "Missed Leads." I don't find it unusual for RFG, a man in his late 50's, unmarried, to put his daughter, his closest relative, on his accounts.

That would partly explain why the estate was so low.

It would not explain why RFG's interest income was so low in 2004 (and 2005). Some things could explain that; RFG putting his money in a irrevocable trust for his daughter, or RFG transferring his money to his daughter both could explain that. Neither explanation is consistent with retirement plans. They would be consistent RFG not planning to be there for retirement.

Estate planning is consistent with RFG anticipating death, either legally or in reality, or both.

Estate planning. Feel the wave. We are all going to die. I have seen nothing by which to conclude RG was planning to die or anticipated imminent death.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Maybe because the interest income was unreportable in the statement of financial interests filed with the Ethics Commission? I have already given the links whereby this is entirely, legally possible. JMOO.

I have not seen any suggestion of that. Interest from joint accounts is reportable. http://www.phila.gov/ethicsboard/PDF/SEC1 Statement Of Financial Iterests Form Rev 01_131.pdf

If RFG had placed money in his daughter's name solely, or put his money in an irrevocable trust would the interest not be required to be reported. Neither action is consistent with preparing for retirement, but both would be consistent with estate planning. Both would be consistent with RFG contemplating a situation where he would be dead, legally, in fact or both.

It is highly unlikely RFG was planning to be murdered.

 

[Saunterer]

There is zero evidence publicly presented that RG intended to die or anticipated imminent death. To the contrary, there is ample evidence publicly presented that RG intended to live.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Link?

Below:

As a joint account holder, I believe LG could have legally closed the account at any time by depositing the money in some other account.

There might have been legal problems with her setting up joint accounts, but not for RFG.

Estate planning. Feel the wave. We are all going to die. I have seen nothing by which to conclude RG was planning to die or anticipated imminent death.

Estate planning, by putting money in an irrevocable trust for, transferring it outright to, his daughter, or buying a single premium life insurance policy, indicates that he wasn't planning to spend it in retirement. Someone with a terminal illness might do this. Someone expecting to be around for retirement, where money would be needed, would not.

Feel the wave. If this was estate planning, RFG was looking at a situation where he was moving most of his savings to his daughter and not planning to spend it in retirement. This would point to RFG not planning to be there for retirement, if it was estate planning.

This is circumstantial evidence of suicide (well planned) or voluntary departure, if it was, as suggested, estate planning, especially on the scale needed to have lower interest than $1300.

 

[Saunterer]

I have not seen any suggestion of that. Interest from joint accounts is reportable. http://www.phila.gov/ethicsboard/PDF/SEC1 Statement Of Financial Iterests Form Rev 01_131.pdf

Only if it met the reporting threshhold and was attributable to RG as an individual. MOO

If RFG had placed money in his daughter's name solely, or put his money in an irrevocable trust would the interest not be required to be reported.

Only if it met the reporting threshhold and was attributable to RG as an individual. MOO

Neither action is consistent with preparing for retirement, but both would be consistent with estate planning. Both would be consistent with RFG contemplating a situation where he would be dead, legally, in fact or both.

Estate planning is all about dieing...eventually.

It is highly unlikely RFG was planning to be murdered.

Agreed.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Only if it met the reporting threshhold and was attributable to RG as an individual. MOO


Only if it met the reporting threshhold and was attributable to RG as an individual. MOO

Actually, the forms do not say that. Since the actual amount is not reportable it wouldn't provide any disclosure problem. Now, it would have to be above $1300.

Estate planning is all about dieing.

Actually, it is about protecting your assets when your estate is settled.

Agreed.

RFG could have been more likely to thinking either being legally dead or committing suicide. That is what this is pointing to.

The financial data does not disprove foul play, but it does weaken it.

 

[Saunterer]

Below:

Below? Where?

There might have been legal problems with her setting up joint accounts, but not for RFG.

Links, or a rational basis for this?

Estate planning, by putting money in an irrevocable trust for, transferring it outright to, his daughter, or buying a single premium life insurance policy, indicates that he wasn't planning to spend it in retirement. Someone with a terminal illness might do this. Someone expecting to be around for retirement, where money would be needed, would not.

Are you an expert on irrevocable trusts?

Feel the wave. If this was estate planning, RFG was looking at a situation where he was moving most of his savings to his daughter and not planning to spend it in retirement. This would point to RFG not planning to be there for retirement, if it was estate planning.

Are you an expert on irrevocable trusts?

This is circumstantial evidence of suicide (well planned) or voluntary departure, if it was, as suggested, estate planning, especially on the scale needed to have lower interest than $1300.

Your opinion is duly noted.

 

[nursebeeme]

This is not the ocean folks and that is where we find waves. All opinions are welcome :werk:

 

[Saunterer]

This is not the ocean folks and that is where we find waves. All opinions are welcome :werk:

All opinions are welcome. The struggle for the hearts and minds are just waves beating on the shore.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Respectfully snipped.

Below? Where?

Links, or a rational basis for this?

It has been quoted several times and links shown.

Are you an expert on irrevocable trusts?

Are you an expert on irrevocable trusts?

Well, you don't need to be an expert to know that an irrevocable trust is, well, irrevocable. Someone brought up irrevocable trusts as a method of estate planning, and it is possible, along with several other methods of estate planning.

All those methods contemplate a situation where RFG is doing estate planning; that would explain the low interest report on the forms. It would also contemplate a situation where RFG would not be planning to spend this money in retirement.

Let's put it this way: RFG could not spend what he does not have.

Normally, a healthy 58 year old man, approaching retirement, would not remove funds that could be used in impending retirement and be worried about estate planning. That would indicate that the individual had some concerns about not being around to spend it in retirement. The man may be sick, the man might be planning suicide, or the man might be planning to be legally dead. The man would probably not be planning to be murdered. That wouldn't preclude him from being murdered.

The financial data, so far, point away from foul play. Now, this is just part of it, so it is not conclusive.

 

[Saunterer]

Respectfully snipped.

It has been quoted several times and links shown.

Well, you don't need to be an expert to know that an irrevocable trust is, well, irrevocable. Someone brought up irrevocable trusts as a method of estate planning, and it is possible, along with several other methods of estate planning.

All those methods contemplate a situation where RFG is doing estate planning; that would explain the low interest report on the forms. It would also contemplate a situation where RFG would not be planning to spend this money in retirement.

Let's put it this way: RFG could not spend what he does not have.

Normally, a healthy 58 year old man, approaching retirement, would not remove funds that could be used in impending retirement and be worried about estate planning. That would indicate that the individual had some concerns about not being around to spend it in retirement. The man may be sick, the man might be planning suicide, or the man might be planning to be legally dead. The man would probably not be planning to be murdered. That wouldn't preclude him from being murdered.

The financial data, so far, point away from foul play. Now, this is just part of it, so it is not conclusive.

"Now, this is just part of it, so it is not conclusive."

Nuff said. Your opinion is duly noted. Well done, JJ!

 

[J. J. in Phila]

"Now, this is just part of it, so it is not conclusive."

Nuff said. Your opinion is duly noted. Well done, JJ!

It rather obviously is not conclusive. Estate planning could point to suicide or walk away. Unaccounted for assets could point to voluntary departure. The financial data, that we have so far, does point away from foul play.

It is interesting that, really for the first time, we've gotten a peek at the assets. The only time before that that came close was the ATM withdrawals. We now have evidence that RFG's assets were low before he disappeared. The explanation may be estate planning, or moving money someplace. Either one points to a voluntary action on RFG's part.

 

[Saunterer]

It rather obviously is not conclusive. Estate planning could point to suicide or walk away. Unaccounted for assets could point to voluntary departure. The financial data, that we have so far, does point away from foul play.

It is interesting that, really for the first time, we've gotten a peak [sic] at the assets. The only time before that that came close was the ATM withdrawals. We now have evidence that RFG's assets were low before he disappeared. The explanation may be estate planning, or moving money someplace. Either one points to a voluntary action on RFG's part.

IMHO there is absolutely no evidence that RG's assets were low before or after he disappeared...and the most likely explanation for his disappearance continues to be foul play.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

IMHO there is absolutely no evidence that RG's assets were low before or after he disappeared...and the most likely explanation for his disappearance continues to be foul play.

There is evidence that his assets were low before he disappeared. It has been posted. Assets generate interest and RFG indicated that, in 2004, his interest was below $1300 from any single source. That is strong evidence that his assets were lower than they should be. We just don't know why that is the case.

I think it is fair to say that the LE people actually involved in the case have all downplayed foul play. The finances might be the reason. If the theory that this was estate planning is correct, suicide might end up being stronger than foul play.

Perhaps if some of the details would be revealed, and there is no real need to keep them secret, some of the questions would be answered. Our first look at the numbers points away from foul play.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

A blog looking at some cultural influences for voluntary departure: http://www.centredaily.com/2013/11/16/3892344/king-of-the-road.html

 

[dallen555]

Wasn't there some link to Jerry Sandusky? That RG had evidence in his computer re JS. Or did I imagine this?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Wasn't there some link to Jerry Sandusky? That RG had evidence in his computer re JS. Or did I imagine this?

Nothing known on his computer (or case files).

He did handle Victim 6 in 1998, and chose not to prosecute at that point. I'd refer you to the PSU Scandal threads for most of the details (or earlier Gricar threads).

It has become the "Elephant in the Parlor" in RFG discussions, but there is no known connection to his disappearance.

 

[SeekingJana]

A blog looking at some cultural influences for voluntary departure: http://www.centredaily.com/2013/11/16/3892344/king-of-the-road.html

Really insightful and also entertaining post about the factors which influenced people of Mr. Gricar's age/ cultural generation. I don't remember any of them, like you, but I remember my parents telling me things about The Fugitive right before it was " solved" and ended.

I also remember many endearing stories from my father about the TRUST between strangers that seems to have been prevalent from the post-war 40's through the late 60's.
My parents only had one car when they married, and my mother worked while my dad attended university. He hitch-hiked every week to a well-known university with a buddy, ( they attended college on the GI Bill), stayed in a boarding house during the week, then hitch-hiked home to his and mother's home for the weekend.. He completed his engineering degree through hard work and the kindness of MANY strangers.

I can't imagine that world, but Mr. Gricar would remember it all clearly, and more, I'm sure.