PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #15

[SeekingJana]

My ultimate belief, IMO:

1) RFG moved money to 'other' accounts using the laptop.
2) RFG destroyed that evidence and moved on to a 'new life'... no suicide.
3) RFG was not alone when he moved on.

I agree with every word you posted. I also think the person who was significant to him was communicating via same laptop ( he set up an email addy not otherwise known).
I also believe the other person was the one with the financing for the entire getaway. I think Ray's money may have been used, or could have been moved to a location which was safe and out of the USA.

This is what I've believed since the issue of the laptop came to light. It was further solidified for me, in hindsight, when we had the documentaries on Ray's case and there were the scenes of Patty " retrieving" an empty laptop carrying case from the top shelf of a closet fairly early on in the investigation. This was when they were looking at Internet caches on Ray and Patty's home computer and his work computer, but some time before we had the breaking news that a laptop and HD had been found in the river (the HD was out of the water at that time due to seasonal conditions but had been submerged. )

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Since the topic of what motive RFG could have had for walking away, here is a list potential reasons why RFG could have left voluntarily, individually or in combination. Before listing them, I want to give these caveats:

A. The only way to know what RFG was thinking would be to ask him, and hope that he would tell the truth. We obviously cannot do that. Any answer is going to be speculative.

B. A prosecutor was asked by a judge what motive a defendant would have for committing the crime he was charged with. The prosecutor said, "Motive, your Honor, is something we never have to prove." The prosecutor was Ray Gricar.

Motive is not central to proving anything. It is important to show what someone did, not why he did it.

The possible motives are:

1. There was a romance to going on the road, without any ties. RFG grew up at a time when Route 66 and The Fugitive were popular. He was interested in the Mel Wiley case. It was something he wanted to try, something on his bucket list.

2. RFG wanted show up everybody else by confounding LE. If he pulled this off, it is clear that he is brilliant.

3. RFG did not want to be "the ex-DA." Any time that there was a question about a case he handled, he could be facing a subpoena, and a lot of press. There is no doubt that RFG would have been subpoenaed before the Sandusky grand jury, possibly the Spanier trial and Sara Ganim would have been pounding on his front door, if she knew where that front door was. Multiply that by 20 years worth of cases.

4. RFG was worried about his safety. It is rare, but there is the possibility someone could come for him, or someone he cares about.

5. RFG realized that if he died before retirement, his heirs would get more. He could disappear, and eventually, he would be declared dead. My understanding is that, if he died even a few months after he retired, there would be be a lot lower payout. (That is also a motive for suicide.)

6. RFG had money hidden overseas. After 9/11, it would be more difficult to get it back into the US. In that case, he walked to his money, not away from his live.

Those are all possible. Possible is not proof.

 

[ChuckMaureen]

bbm and snipped:

To take the last points in this post.

1. I use an old style flip phone. I do not know if it could be tracked or not if it isn't turned on. That could have been the reason he left it in the car. Simply, he did not want to be tracked. That fits with any of the three scenarios.

2. AFAIK, there were no Roy Gricar files. RFG was not the next of kin, Roy's wife and children were. This was not in RFG's jurisdiction. TG has read the psychological report on Roy, and TG does not that it was suicide.

1. The point is not why he left the cell phone (+ other items) behind, it is why he took the car keys... useless to him, other than maybe a 'keepsake' or if he were to change his mind in the brief?

2. There do not have to be Roy Gricar "files." RFG could have been making his own files, keeping notes, researching, attempting to 'resolve' the situation to his own mental satisfaction.

 

[ChuckMaureen]

The word "motive" would be relevant if this were a criminal case. As it stands, RFG is not indicted, much less even accused of illegal activities. Disappearing (in context of this case) certainly is not criminal, especially if one may have left enough funds behind to cover accrued debt, if any existed.

"Motive" in this case translates to "reason", "desire". As has been commented previously, RFG likely had 'run to', as opposed to had 'run from', although one could argue the 'from' may have been less desirable than the 'to' for RFG to have gone to such an extreme.

Yes, some people do tire of their lives... greener grass.

 

[ChuckMaureen]

bbm

Possible, and even likely, but possible is not proof.

This is a forum, not a courtroom. Each of us are simply 'speculating'. :dance:

But given what I think we know and until we're informed otherwise, my bet is the 'lady's man' chose a 'new life' adventure.

 

[ChuckMaureen]

bbm and snipped:

To take the last points in this post.

RFG used his laptop as home computer. It his almost impossible for him not to have had personal data on that drive. Anything from his credit card number to scans of LG's birth records to some naughty photos. He could have had some confidential work related material like employee evaluations. He might not have wanted whomever won the next election and say, **Well, Ray said you were deficient in these areas, so that's a good reason to fire you.**

Assume, for a second that, RFG was planning to come back after going to Lewisburg. He could have removed the drive, tossed it, and then bought a replacement drive; it would have been less than $150.00, maybe $100. There would be no way that anyone else would know that it was a replacement. If somebody finds the drive in Lewisburg, they can't tie it to RFG; as far as Centre County is concerned, the laptop has the original drive.

There is a good reason for the laptop and drive to have endued up where they did, that is not linked to RFG's disappearance.

BTW: The laptop was given to RFG until at least 4 year after the Sandusky incident, according to the county. It was not even available for sale when that incident happened. Finally, all of the documents regarding the 1998 incident were faxed. RFG would have had to scanned the documents, downloaded those to the laptop, and then destroyed the originals.

RFG had a desktop computer at his disposal, already set up and plugged in, ready to go. Why would we believe RFG used the work laptop at home for personal use (ignoring the 'used it to xfer money' and / or 'communicate to a significant other who was not PEF speculations) when we're told RFG kept the laptop in a carrying case stored in a closet?

That seems like too much work: retrieve case, unzip, remove laptop, set on desk, plug in power and / or network or otherwise connect wireless, where all he had to do was turn on the desktop computer.

Regarding the Sandusky situation, I do not believe the Sandusky case was a primary catalyst, it might not have been on RFG's radar when he decided to disappear but if it was there would not have to be "files" on the laptop other than RFG's own notes, research, etc.

A thought that all "files" RFG may have had in his possession had to have been sourced from someone else is limited thinking. ;-) RFG certainly must have created his own work product...

 

[J. J. in Phila]

bbm and snipped:





1. The point is not why he left the cell phone (+ other items) behind, it is why he took the car keys... useless to him, other than maybe a 'keepsake' or if he were to change his mind in the brief?

2. There do not have to be Roy Gricar "files." RFG could have been making his own files, keeping notes, researching, attempting to 'resolve' the situation to his own mental satisfaction.

There could be several reasons for RFG could have taken the keys, if is absence is voluntary.

1. He didn't want to give the game away. He wanted to create some doubt as to if he wanted to come back.

2. He didn't want someone to steal the Mini. While RFG bought the car, he put it in PEF's name. He wanted to make sure she would get it. Even if he put it under the floor mat, if someone broke in, the keys could be found.

3. Like another of other things, he did it by force of habit. This is maybe more likely if this was suicide.

As to anything related to Roy being on the laptop, TG has indicated that the first time he heard anything about RFG questioning if Roy's death was anything but suicide was after RFG disappeared. TG has never said that RFG requested any information on Roy. TG, as the next of kin, was in a much better position to get anything than RFG.

Could RFG been looking at information on Roy's suicide? Sure. Could he have been looking at information on sci-fi author Robert Heinlein? Sure. (The latter is on my computer.)

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Respectfully snipped.

bbm and snipped:

RFG had a desktop computer at his disposal, already set up and plugged in, ready to go. Why would we believe RFG used the work laptop at home for personal use (ignoring the 'used it to xfer money' and / or 'communicate to a significant other who was not PEF speculations) when we're told RFG kept the laptop in a carrying case stored in a closet?

That seems like too much work: retrieve case, unzip, remove laptop, set on desk, plug in power and / or network or otherwise connect wireless, where all he had to do was turn on the desktop computer.

RFG did not have a home desktop until 12/04, at the earliest, and at the latest, 01/05. Before that, he used the laptop as his home computer.

For the record, it did not have wi fi, so it would have had to have been connected to the Internet physically.

[/quote]
A thought that all "files" RFG may have had in his possession had to have been sourced from someone else is limited thinking. ;-) RFG certainly must have created his own work product...[/QUOTE]

We know that some things related to the 1998 Sandusky incident was sent to the DA's Office, e.g. the police report, the Chamber's Report and possibly transcripts of interviews and the Seasock Report. They were faxed. None of that was in the DA's office nor did investigators find any reference to Sandusky in anything RFG had.

Sure, RFG could have had things on Sandusky, but why not the hard copies? Why didn't he have backup files, especially on one of his other computers? It is clear that RFG did not want anybody to see what was on the laptop, so if it was something related to Sandusky, why did he want to destroy it so that no one could read it, including himself?

If RFG did have something on the laptop on Sandusky, he didn't want anyone to see it.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

There reason that I use "motive," is that because motive tends to be used in an investigate context. "Motivation" could be substituted, but both are basically the same question, "Why would RFG do something?"

As to proof, I like to distinguish between things that have a very high level of likelihood of having happened, beyond a reasonable doubt, things that are highly probable, but could have different, though less likely explanations, and things that have a reasonable chance of having happened, but not proof.

There are certain things beyond a reasonable doubt. RFG went to Lewisburg on 4/15 and arrived there. RFG wanted to get rid of the data on the laptop. RFG made the call to PEF. RFG tossed the drive.

There are things that are probable, but not beyond a reasonable doubt. RFG tossed the laptop. RFG was in Lewisburg on 4/16. There is, at least, a realistic argument that can be made that those things didn't happen. It is more likely that those things did happen, but it is not solid as these other things.

 

[Trackergd]

Somehow we are missing something. In most cases LE has one or two things that they hold back from the public. We are reduced to re-hashing the known and speculated talking points and bits of evidence. It's starting to look like the Infinite Monkey Theorem. If we keep pounding away on what we know, at some point in the far future, we will figure it out, probably long after I am in the ground. What we need is new tidbit of information, else we fall into the definition of insanity of doing something over and over again and expecting a different result. The video posted up thread about RFG's family pleading for "him to come home, not whomever has RFG, please let him go" is interesting.

At this point, thinking outside the box is a very attractive option. If RFG were to do something that no one would expect, that would be totally out of character, what would it be?

 

[Ozoner]

Somehow we are missing something. In most cases LE has one or two things that they hold back from the public. We are reduced to re-hashing the known and speculated talking points and bits of evidence. It's starting to look like the Infinite Monkey Theorem. If we keep pounding away on what we know, at some point in the far future, we will figure it out, probably long after I am in the ground. What we need is new tidbit of information, else we fall into the definition of insanity of doing something over and over again and expecting a different result. The video posted up thread about RFG's family pleading for "him to come home, not whomever has RFG, please let him go" is interesting.

At this point, thinking outside the box is a very attractive option. If RFG were to do something that no one would expect, that would be totally out of character, what would it be?

Maybe he became Dexter, taking the law into his own hands and making bad guys disappear when the law couldn't get them. LOL

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Snipped for space only.

What we need is new tidbit of information, else we fall into the definition of insanity of doing something over and over again and expecting a different result. The video posted up thread about RFG's family pleading for "him to come home, not whomever has RFG, please let him go" is interesting.

In 1999-2000 RFG had a fight with his then wife and took of for an Indians game in Cleveland; he was gone at least overnight and didn't tell anyone where he was going. Sloane though that is what happened and told Zaccagni to call Jacobs Field and check to see if the Mini was there; DZ was calling RFG's friends and coworkers on the morning of 4/16.

When PEF called up the BPD, the officer there call up Chief Dixon. He was either with a few other officers or called them, but everyone thought RFG was out with a woman. One of them actually call RFG's phone and left a voicemail. Then they put out the BOLA.

The next morning, when he didn't call them back and hadn't contacted PEF, they began calling around and checked the cell records. When the last call came up from Brush Valley, they began thinking accident and began searching 192.

When they found the Mini, in Lewisburg and undamaged, with the smoke and ash, and the report of the "mystery woman," it was back to the woman theory, Petito in particular. DZ actually said that when they found the Mini, he thought that RFG was out for a "wild weekend." I think it was on Disappeared that he said that he was hoping RFG see the 4/18/05 presser, contact LE and "shut everything down."

RFG had a reputation as a "lady's man." Whether or not the reputation was accurate and whether or not it could extend to cheating on PEF, I don't know. The people around on 4/15-4/18 did consider that as a possibility.

The thought was, at least with some in LE, that RFG was with a woman; they may have been correct. That woman may have been a helper or a murderer.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

The only two things that I would say is out of character for RFG are:

1. Committing a major crime, e.g. robbing a bank.

2. Seeing a psychologist or a psychiatrist, professionally.

3. Reconnecting with his second wife.

4. Going to a religious retreat.

5. Being involved with a social or service club, e.g. the Rotary, Elks, Lions, Slovenian American Union, one of the local country clubs.

 

[Trackergd]

Living in a cabin in the woods up above Minersville having a good laugh at our and LE's expense and wondering how no one has found him yet.

 

[SeekingJana]

The only two things that I would say is out of character for RFG are:

1. Committing a major crime, e.g. robbing a bank.

2. Seeing a psychologist or a psychiatrist, professionally.

3. Reconnecting with his second wife.

4. Going to a religious retreat.

5. Being involved with a social or service club, e.g. the Rotary, Elks, Lions, Slovenian American Union, one of the local country clubs.

My friend, that's not 2 things, it's 5. Sometimes, just gotta laugh, as TrackerGD is so right, we have done everything but hang upside down from bridges trying to find " a new angle".

 

[ChuckMaureen]

bbm and snipped:

Respectfully snipped.

RFG did not have a home desktop until 12/04, at the earliest, and at the latest, 01/05. Before that, he used the laptop as his home computer.

For the record, it did not have wi fi, so it would have had to have been connected to the Internet physically.

We know it had network capability.

That's a PCMCIA Dell network card in the upper-center-right of the photo.

I believe it is this model:

 

[SeekingJana]

Somehow we are missing something. In most cases LE has one or two things that they hold back from the public. We are reduced to re-hashing the known and speculated talking points and bits of evidence. It's starting to look like the Infinite Monkey Theorem. If we keep pounding away on what we know, at some point in the far future, we will figure it out, probably long after I am in the ground. What we need is new tidbit of information, else we fall into the definition of insanity of doing something over and over again and expecting a different result. The video posted up thread about RFG's family pleading for "him to come home, not whomever has RFG, please let him go" is interesting.

At this point, thinking outside the box is a very attractive option. If RFG were to do something that no one would expect, that would be totally out of character, what would it be?

I have had this very same thought for a very long time. That MAYBE if we stretch what we can see and what is known to the very limit, we can find the hidden crucial piece of info we're missing because LE is holding back info. ( likely a lot, but who really knows?)
That if we " brush up against it, point it out and name it", things will break loose in the case if enough reporters in PA ask questions.

The thing is, I don't believe he was killed on or about April 15, 2005. Then, if one asks " What happened to him, then?" the likeliest conclusion for me is that he planned his own disappearance, breaking no laws, and apparently few hearts, and left Dodge.

 

[SeekingJana]

At this point, thinking outside the box is a very attractive option. If RFG were to do something that no one would expect, that would be totally out of character, what would it be?

I think he reconnected with the one true love of his life, probably via the Internet, and they decided to throw caution to the wind, to leave behind a daughter and a live in lover on Ray's part, and possibly a spouse on the lady's part, and go far away from prying eyes.
If so, he's been successful in " going far away from prying eyes" at least.

Question for you guys: IF you'd actually been impulsive enough to leave a long standing career, to leave a live in girlfriend ( well, technically he was the one " living in" as it was her house), and to cause your first ex wife to actually attend a presser with your local girlfriend and your adult daughter, if this love you left the area, country or whatever for didn't work out long term, would you:
1) Stay where you'd settled, even if the other person was there too?
2) Go to a new location no one knew of, assuming the funds to be mobile were intact?
3) Go back to the area you left originally, his being PA, and kind of be the Don Quixote with a lot of rust on the armour?

I still think the reason this may be unsolved is because of a 1-2 punch. One thing caused the leave-taking. Something else happened later. It's the second thing which has stymied LE. Both numbers 1 and 2 are mystifying to most of us.
I've been looking at it as " He went away on his own terms, then something bad happened to him and he could not be found'.
Maybe it's more of " He went away on his own terms, madly in love and the love he'd left everything for subsequently left HIM at some point."

The most significant non- evidentiary thing I believe due to seeing it, is how much Patty looked like first wife Barbara. It was very evident at the first televised press conference. The " Come home, Ray" one.

They are almost identical in every way, and neither is what I would call "conventional" for a 40- 50 something year old.
There's something significant about this, I think, and it's probably deeper than " He has a type", because NO, he didn't. EG looked nothing like either of them, and neither did a couple of women he's said to have dated.

Only Barbara and Patty look so distinctly alike. Did he pick Patty on purpose as part of his long range plans to leave? They were together for approx, 18 months. He was married to Barbara for many years. Although I don't know exactly what she looked like for all that time, if he had a reason to use deception, Patty could pass for Barbara and vice versa at any time.

Is this co-incidence only or did he see Patty and add a layer to his long- range plans? Did people sometimes see what they expected to see, at a distance, certainly, but it was really the other woman ( Barb vs Patty or Patty vs Barb?)
Why isn't this important? I think it has significance. I'm just not sure what the significance is.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

bbm and snipped:



We know it had network capability.

That's a PCMCIA Dell network card in the upper-center-right of the photo.

I believe it is this model:

The computer was a Micron.

http://stephie5741.blogspot.com/2016/12/mystery-monday-ray-gricar.html

It could be connected to the Internet, with a phone line type cable. That was still in the case, though RFG could have easily bought one.

 

[dub]

There could be several reasons for RFG could have taken the keys, if is absence is voluntary.

1. He didn't want to give the game away. He wanted to create some doubt as to if he wanted to come back.

2. He didn't want someone to steal the Mini. While RFG bought the car, he put it in PEF's name. He wanted to make sure she would get it. Even if he put it under the floor mat, if someone broke in, the keys could be found.

3. Like another of other things, he did it by force of habit. This is maybe more likely if this was suicide.

Another possibility: he took the keys because on the key ring there were keys to other things that he was going to need going forward.