PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #15

[J. J. in Phila]

More than likely, there are very very old threads here with mention of the last name " O'Kicki". Judge Joseph O'Kicki was a judge who disappeared for quite some time after he did some " bad stuff" and turned up alive and well in Slovenia. No idea if the daughter went with him, or with Ray or what. ( just kidding, mostly).
As I recall, a time or two, the young lady in question had a nickname here with a kink instead of a kick in a non- serious way because of the alleged age difference.... Steve Sloane mentioned both O' Kicki's a few times after Ray went missing..
There's more I remember from right here, years ago, but I don't feel comfy posting what all this speculation led to. I know " Ivy Butterworth" and her long blonde haired daughter were also mentioned along with the O'Kicki girl.... I think it's likely silly unfounded rumors, and we deduced the same at the time.. but if the O' Kicki female is not in PA and might be in Slovenia, then I'd be willing to re-evaluate things.

O'Kicki's wife did go to PSU and did have a State College address. She was about PEF's age and was probably 30 years younger that the former Judge. We are in Central Pennsylvania Gothic.

All that said, O'Kicki was a major topic of conversation in Central Pennsylvania. Reports about an investigation of someone began in 1987. O'Kicki was indicted in 1988-89, convicted, and lost his final appeal in early 1993, when he fled to Slovenia.

Excluding the third Johnstown Flood, O'Kicki was one of three biggest news story in the area in the last 60-70 years (the other two being the Gricar and Sandusky stories). Everybody was talking about it. There were stories about in both the Wall Street Journal and the National Inquirer. There was even a parody song to the tune of Toni Basil's "Oh Micky." "O'Kicki, people say that you are such a slime. If you did what they said, you will be doing time." This was a big story and a salacious one, as he was suppose to have been sitting around his chambers in his underwear.

Sloane did say that he and RFG did talk about it at the time, but that would be totally expected. I was a resident and I talked about it. It was a general conversation. Top that off with O'Kicki being spotted
in State College shortly after he was reported missing and it will come up in "water cooler" conversation all over Centre County. Add to that Sloane graduated from high school in Cambria County, which is the county where O'Kicki was judge. I talk to people from the area and a few still tell O'Kicki stories.

Anybody in the area, unless he was in a coma, had an IQ below 65, or was living in a cave, would have known about O'Kicki and known that he had fled to his "ancestral homeland," as the Johnstown newspaper called it, Slovenia. RFG obviously was not in a coma, had and IQ above 65 and was not living in a cave. There is no way that RFG could not have not known about O'Kicki, especially since RFG was interested in all things Slovenian.

 

[SeekingJana]

Ohh Kay, I was immersed in totally different things south of the Mason- Dixon line and didn't know it was such a scandal. Now, I doubt it would be such a huge deal, what with everything that's going on and has gone on since with innumerable politicians and, well, I don't have to tell you- you know.
I'm too sick to look- what happened to O' Kicki? Was there an extradition policy and was he brought back to face trial?
If you said, so sorry. My IQ at present is likely running on one cylinder, so don't count points on me today. .

OTOH, one of my very favorite topics in the world is THE Johnstown Flood, as written about by David McCullough. My ex husband, who was both a politician's right hand man behind the scenes and held multiple degrees in American history, handed me the book one weekend during our little marriage, and said, " Read just one chapter and if you aren't captivated, put it down and we'll do something else".

I couldn't put it down!
I learned a lot about politicians,greed, class distinction in matters of safety standards back then. safe and unsafe artificial lake and dam building policies, and then the horrible scope of the human tragedy in general. It's one of the best written, yet saddest, books I've ever read, even 25 years on.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Snipped just for space.

I'm too sick to look- what happened to O' Kicki? Was there an extradition policy and was he brought back to face trial?

There was no extradition treaty until sometime between 2009 and 2014. O'Kicki, then in his 70's, had a natural death. His wife did return to the US, and placed on ARD (which is lower than probation or a suspended sentence). She is living in Cambria County.

OTOH, one of my very favorite topics in the world is THE Johnstown Flood, as written about by David McCullough.

I was living in a town that was hit by the Third Johnstown Flood, or the '77 Flood. I am familiar with McCullough and have been to the Johnstown Flood Museum several times (it was also hit in the 77 flood) and to the site of Southfork Fishing and Hunting Club, where the dam was.

I learned a lot about politicians,greed, class distinction in matters of safety standards back then. safe and unsafe artificial lake and dam building policies, and then the horrible scope of the human tragedy in general. It's one of the best written, yet saddest, books I've ever read, even 25 years on.

One of those people was a distant cousin.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I was looking at Google Ground view, and at least some of the railroad right-of-way has been cleared of vegetation. Also, a family has put in a small dock just north of the intersection. The area has less ground cover than it did in 2005.

 

[SeekingJana]

Snipped just for space.



There was no extradition treaty until sometime between 2009 and 2014. O'Kicki, then in his 70's, had a natural death. His wife did return to the US, and placed on ARD (which is lower than probation or a suspended sentence). She is living in Cambria County.



I was living in a town that was hit by the Third Johnstown Flood, or the '77 Flood. I am familiar with McCullough and have been to the Johnstown Flood Museum several times (it was also hit in the 77 flood) and to the site of Southfork Fishing and Hunting Club, where the dam was.



One of those people was a distant cousin.

I'm quite sure you mean you are a descendant of the McCullough family, right?
Have you ever read the book? Let me know and I'll get it for you on Audible or something. It is a masterpiece of journalism written in quite a unique way, IMO. I think you'd agree.

I would love to go to the museum, but I'm afraid they'd take a dim view of my grieving for people I obviously never knew.

May I be shallower than usual for a second? Is it possible that the ranch on the TV show " Dallas" was named "Southfork" as a throwback reference to the hubris and tragedy connected to the sporting lodge? I've wondered before.. not sure there IS an answer..

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I'm quite sure you mean you are a descendant of the McCullough family, right?
Have you ever read the book? Let me know and I'll get it for you on Audible or something. It is a masterpiece of journalism written in quite a unique way, IMO. I think you'd agree.

I would love to go to the museum, but I'm afraid they'd take a dim view of my grieving for people I obviously never knew.

May I be shallower than usual for a second? Is it possible that the ranch on the TV show " Dallas" was named "Southfork" as a throwback reference to the hubris and tragedy connected to the sporting lodge? I've wondered before.. not sure there IS an answer..

No, not the McCullough family. I have read other books and saw the documentary based on the McCullough book.

There is a town of South Fork that the club was named after; I've always assumed that the fictional referred to the south branch of a creek.

Getting a bit back on topic, O'Kicki was the president judge in Cambria County at the time, which was given by seniority. He had been very well known in the county, and Johnstown-Altoona-State College Media Market. He'd been elected in 1971 and the grand jury presentment came out in 1989.

On top of that, he was well known in Slovenian circles because of some early problems he had because of ancestry. While in college (Pitt ) he took the local congressman (Saylor, I think) to task for remarks the congressman had made about Eastern Europeans; I think the two had a formal debate. He was initially denied admission to either law school (Pitt also) or the bar, basically because of his Eastern European ancestry; it was in the early 1950's and they thought he was a Communist. He showed up at his next admission interview in his Navy uniform, just to show he was loyal.

There is absolutely no way that RFG would not have known about O'Kicki.

 

[SeekingJana]

Yes, as I said when I talked to you about going through the archived threads here, O'Kicki was a very interesting topic of discussion for me. It was also quite clear that Ray would have known about a crooked judge in a nearby county.

Did O'Kicki's wife and daughter come back with him, do you know, if this is public knowledge?

PS- High fever started Sunday. Months after getting my flu shot, I now have the flu. Happy April Fool's day to me.
I'm starting to see how Ray might have felt somewhat old with time running out at age 59. I'm 59.

 

[SeekingJana]

Regarding the issue of being of Eastern European ancestry:
I know times have changed immensely since the end of WWII, the war crimes trials, the scares of communists in America post WW II, etc.
O' Kicki was caught up in some of that, and more's the pity. Maybe he'd have found the world around him to be a kind and accepting place if not for his last name, which is nothing to ever be ashamed of. But, no name ever made anyone steal and do corrupt things. He chose that life of embezzlement and so forth.

I'm married to a man with strong Eastern European ancestry on both sides of his family tree, and his name is definitely not " American", although I think efforts were made to " Americanize" it from the original spelling and pronunciation. Ir's Hungarian,but could be mistaken for Polish or Czech ( and what the region became as it split).

I would vastly prefer a W. European surname, and did have one, and my biological family is as Western European as they come, but I'm not an " Ancestry DNA" kind of nut. We make our lives, and our name follows, not the other way around.

Here's what I know about hubby's family as far as personal achievements go.. I think they are over- achievers with a very strong work ethic except for his parents. But I am biased because we do not like each other ( not gonna lie after 21 years of it).:

His grandfather was first a boilermaker, then a fire chief of a major city. He was very beloved in this city and he was the city's official Santa Claus. Both my father in law and my uncle by marriage have incredibly beautiful portraits painted of him as " Santa" with little children in the 1950's. They have the charm and beauty of Norman Rockwell's slices of American life. He was a gem of a man, and his wife was much beloved as well, from all accounts. They had only 2 children, my father in law and his brother, who went to a great college and became a dentist. The uncle's branch of the family ( ALL of whom kept the Hungarian- based surname) reads like a who's who in their fields.

Hubby has in his immediate family loved ones with the following successful careers:

The sweet elderly uncle who has a nickname which shows how loved he is but I don't feel comfy posting it here- He's a renowned dentist. May be mostly retired by now, IDK. He never wanted to retire.

His and his precious, socialite from Connecticut's wife's four adult daughters are in the following diverse career paths:

An expert attorney in International law; living in Australia for decades.

A senior ethics professor at a top prestigious college. She lives in a suburb outside D.C. and also has specialized Pentagon clearance for something she does there. IDK what.

The head curator of a major city's museum with world- class knowledge in a specialized field. She's published several books in her field(s).

Hubby's sister is a Geologist for a major corporation in Las Vegas. Her husband works for the same corporation in top management and is rarely home. None of this branch of the family has any heirs. The uncle's daughters do have children, but none who carry the family surname.

The black sheep of the family, career wise- his own father. He had a chance to go to college and could have been the dentist ( who is extremely wealthy and well known) but decided to be a fireman like his dad, instead. From all accounts, he beat up his wife and didn't do much work, but coasted on " dad's coattails". He's a brash, raw kind of man who isn't a gentleman in a family of very kind and nice people, except for his wife, my husband's mother, who came from an alcoholic broken home and has a life history from early childhood onwards so weird there are no words.

Has my hubby's ( and my) surname affected his chances at the career he wanted? Affected anything in my life adversely? It's impossible to know for sure, but given where he is in management of a world- wide corporation at the age of 52 ( when he has many upper level management friends still working in their 70's) I'd say he's been recognized and remunerated worthily for his work. Plus, he is of the generation which works with people from all manner of non- US parentage... times have changed greatly in his global employer workforce.

As for me: It was always clear from the minute I opened my mouth and spoke that I was at least a few generations away from anything but Southern American descendants.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Yes, as I said when I talked to you about going through the archived threads here, O'Kicki was a very interesting topic of discussion for me. It was also quite clear that Ray would have known about a crooked judge in a nearby county.

Did O'Kicki's wife and daughter come back with him, do you know, if this is public knowledge?

PS- High fever started Sunday. Months after getting my flu shot, I now have the flu. Happy April Fool's day to me.
I'm starting to see how Ray might have felt somewhat old with time running out at age 59. I'm 59.

I hope you are feeling better.

O'Kicki had seven children from his first marriage, I think all female. Reading between the lines, he had several with his second wife. They were under 18 and went with their mother to Slovenia.

His second wife lives in Cambria County currently; I won't identify the town, but I have seen her post, at one point saying that she knew what happened to O'Kicki, but not Gricar. I don't know about the children from their marriage or the older children; I don't think the older ones went with their father/stepmother.

She does not have dark hair.

I can kind of see how, rapidly approaching 59, it does change your outlook a bit. It is either a bucket list, or looking back accomplishments, at list for me.

As for Eastern European names:

Wojnaroski
Yewcic
Telek
Wozniak
Murtha

Those are the surnames of Pennsylvania and US legislators from Cambria. It has a large Eastern European origin population and is seat of the American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese.

The brother of my high school guidance county and had a Polish surname and worked for WJAC as a camera man. He was covering a visit by Eisenhower, then president, in 1959. He was actually questioned because of his surname by the Secret Service. O'Kicki was not being paranoid.

 

[SeekingJana]

I don't think O' Kicki was being unduly paranoid, either. Our country has a strange history with immigrant snobbery for a country settled by immigrants. I have a good measure of something close to it for my in- laws but it is based upon THEIR actions and histories, not their lineage. IF they were nice people, I'd be fine if they were Yetis at this point.
This thing with O' Kicki was true long before there were many concrete reasons to worry about acts of terrorism, ISIS, etc.

So, aside from the reference a few pages back about a blog and a poster mentioning O' Kicki, do you have any reason to think there is any connection between he and Gricar post April 15, 2005?

If not, maybe we could discuss Raystown Lake on the 14th. Did RFG go there to a reasonable certainty? If so, why? If not, what tactic was being employed to imply his presence there?

Was he possibly scoping out a place to dump the laptop/ separated HD? To meet up with someone the next day if there was a need for a Plan B with regard to Lewisburg?
Was he wanting to hand off something he especially valued or treasured to someone he wanted to gift the item or items to? Maybe a private meeting at a residence would attract unwanted and speculative gossip.

I've always wanted to know more about why he was at Raystown Lake, if he was... We've never talked about it that much, probably because there's not much we know to say about it, factually.

 

[Trackergd]

If not, maybe we could discuss Raystown Lake on the 14th. Did RFG go there to a reasonable certainty? If so, why? If not, what tactic was being employed to imply his presence there?

Was he possibly scoping out a place to dump the laptop/ separated HD? To meet up with someone the next day if there was a need for a Plan B with regard to Lewisburg?
Was he wanting to hand off something he especially valued or treasured to someone he wanted to gift the item or items to? Maybe a private meeting at a residence would attract unwanted and speculative gossip.

I've always wanted to know more about why he was at Raystown Lake, if he was... We've never talked about it that much, probably because there's not much we know to say about it, factually.

Respectfully Snipped

Raystown to me is the smoking gun of "intent" to destroy and hide the laptop. I agree with your analysis and questions.

 

[Trackergd]

J.J.

Was the laptop and drive found on the upstream side or downstream side of the bridge?

If possible, can you post a Google earth view of the bridge with a couple of "X's" showing where they were found?

Time is of the essence as I just found out I am most likely going to be traveling through Lewisburg this Thursday and Friday and can stop for about an hour each way. Already packed the high power binoculars and camera.

Using Goggle street view, I discovered that the SOS is a lot larger than I initially thought.

Hopefully I will be able to get a "lay of the land".

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Snipped for brevity only.

So, aside from the reference a few pages back about a blog and a poster mentioning O' Kicki, do you have any reason to think there is any connection between he and Gricar post April 15, 2005?

No, though RFG obviously knew about the case. O'Kicki died in the 1990's, though I think his wife was back in the US.

If not, maybe we could discuss Raystown Lake on the 14th. Did RFG go there to a reasonable certainty? If so, why? If not, what tactic was being employed to imply his presence there?

The person, a "doctor," knew him and the timing is right. RFG could have easily gone to Raystown Lake (Aich) from the Prison Board meeting and been back to Bellefonte, where he was known to be in the afternoon. If someone was trying to fake that, they would have had to known when he was in the Courthouse, so that they couldn't have given a conflicting time.

He did drive the Mini there. The witness also saw that.

Was he possibly scoping out a place to dump the laptop/ separated HD? To meet up with someone the next day if there was a need for a Plan B with regard to Lewisburg?
Was he wanting to hand off something he especially valued or treasured to someone he wanted to gift the item or items to? Maybe a private meeting at a residence would attract unwanted and speculative gossip.

It is entirely possible he wanted to toss the drive there; he did check the weather for Raystown and Lewisburg that week.

Passing something off is more problematic. If it something like digital data, he could easily pass it off in some public place. Even if it was something more bulky, generally no one would think anything about it.

The only exception would be if RFG didn't want to be seen that person, that person didn't want to be seen with him, or that they did not want to be seen with each other. For something like passing some item, even if the other person was married, it would not create a problem if it were seen.

The only thing that I can come up with where RFG would not to be seen meeting someone, in a public place, is if the other person had a connection to a some suspected criminal, e.g. a wife, girlfriend, or blood relation, was an actual defendant or was a witness in an active case.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

This should be accurate to about 20 feet, in the river. The parking lot is probably with 15 feet.



The river flows south, top of image to bottom. The walkway is on the southern side of the bridge.

That island where the drive was found was completely under water on 4/15/05.

 

[Trackergd]

So it is unlikely that the laptop was thrown from the bridge as the walkway is on the downstream (Southern) side of the bridge. RFG would had to have been standing in a traffic lane to toss them from the upstream side of the bridge.. The drive and laptop would have likely been thrown from the park embankment. I will try and get photographs of the embankment area all the way up to the rail bridge and some telephoto shots of where the drive and laptop were found. Some other areas I am interested in are the area north of the SOS and the rail right of way on the far side of the rail bridge. Will assess the wooded areas when I get over on that side.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

So it is unlikely that the laptop was thrown from the bridge as the walkway is on the downstream (Southern) side of the bridge. RFG would had to have been standing in a traffic lane to toss them from the upstream side of the bridge.. The drive and laptop would have likely been thrown from the park embankment. I will try and get photographs of the embankment area all the way up to the rail bridge and some telephoto shots of where the drive and laptop were found. Some other areas I am interested in are the area north of the SOS and the rail right of way on the far side of the rail bridge. Will assess the wooded areas when I get over on that side.

Actually, it is incredibly likely.

Here is a shot of the barrier on the bridge:



The barriers are same size on each side. The cane is about 35.75" and is leaning slightly. The barrier is 30"-32" tall.

The bottom of window frame on a Mini Cooper is in excess of 40". Someone in a Mini could open the window, and start driving west across the bridge to Lewisburg. With the laptop in the front seat, it would have two-three seconds stopped to toss the laptop. You only have to give it a slight upward toss to have it clear the barrier. If you put one edge of the laptop on the window frame and hold on to the wheel with your right hand, you could toss it while driving slowly.

I'm shorter than RFG, so my arms are probably shorter; I have less upper body strength. My car is wider than a Mini and it sits lower to the road. I tried some simulations while parked and I easily got something the weight of the laptop being tossed much higher than the barrier.

RFG was absolutely able to toss the laptop while driving the Mini. It doesn't prove RFG did that, but it certainly cannot be ruled out.

The area to north of the SOS is fairly overgrown. As I noted in an earlier post, some of that railroad right of way has been cleared of vegetation.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

BTW: I have a lot of those photos in my album here. As far as I know, they should be open to every member, you are all welcome to take a look. If they are not, PM me.

 

[SeekingJana]

The photos... they still kind of get to me.. I can't help but wonder- was he in immediate mortal danger and protection was forthcoming? Then I think about leaving and how that would affect most people ( not me, I'd gladly take a risk to go somewhere new for a happy and exciting life- and remember- I'm 59.)

Mostly, I think how I probably would feel UNLESS there was incredible rage simmering just under the surface about leaving a long career that close to retirement. I've pretty much decided that either desperation or white hot rage would be the motivating factors for me to walk away ( with many curses and epithets muttered under my breath as I smiled sweetly and went about my daily routine until I could leave).

I never knew what " white hot rage" was until someone close to me betrayed everything I have,and put the roof over my head in dire jeopardy last year. I now know, and there's a chance that if I was a male with male hormones, I'd leave to keep myself from going to prison for murder.
Instead, I just cry.

We never really talk about this kind of soul- destroying, all- encompassing kind of rage ( goes way way deeper than anger) at a true and deep injustice which can't be made right in most ways. Another person most certainly can perpetrate it upon another, one small act at a time until it's too late to go back and make the wrongs right.

I hope with all my heart that this isn't a part of why Ray left.. but I do know that a smart person can fake acceptance, fake the daily comings and goings and being interested in the old sick dog and bringing home some flowers for the dinner table, dealing with the traitor and liar however much it hurts on an hour by hour kind and accepting way, all the time making plans to get out.
Maybe not Patty, maybe not " at home" but in the DA's office.
Any type of complete betrayal, whether it is to the point of being known or is still betwee the two parties is a soul- crushing burden to bear.
It would take a stronger man to walk away than to bring the personal issue to light, to whine and mew and maybe file a few suits about it. There are some betrayals so deep that all most people can do is keep putting one foot in front of another and trying to make it to tomorrow.

For a person who lives by the truth and with integrity, betrayal of the level I'm alluding to is almost mentally incomprehensible on a personal level. Good people simply do not expect loved ones to betray them, leave them ONE DAY away from homelessness, hurt their chilf or children, or deliberately plan " the big fall".

I've just been through it ( I HOPE it's over) and the scope of lies and deceptions over a period of YEARS that were carefully hidden is hell on earth that seems it will never end. I'm not a recovering person from any substance abuse, but the Serenity Prayer is a lifeline in the storm.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

There is something dealing with "rage," but anger.

When RFG was first elected, the office was considered part time; all prior DA's had an outside practice. That was the norm in smaller counties. Within 5 weeks of being sworn in he was pitching making him a full time DA, nearly doubling his salary. His salary was $20 k ($45 k today), so it was not huge.

A couple of things with this. He knew that everyone before him (and he served under two other DA's) had an outside practice. He knew what the salary was. His wife, even at that point, was making at least what he would be making as a full-time DA. The county offered to hire an additional ADA so that he could not have as much to do; RFG said no.

He tried to get the Pennsylvania District Attorneys Association to adopt a motion a resolution calling for all DA's to be full time. He resigned from PDAA when they didn't. The position being full time was the major issue in the 1993 election.

The county made the office full time in 1997 and RFG donated the difference in the to charity, which is common for an elected official. I've talked to a few people people about RFG's greatest accomplishment as DA, and they generally cite making the position full time. He did have other accomplishments as DA, some of which were cutting edge.

Looking at RFG's comments even in 1986, being full time was important to him. I have wondered if this was a source of anger for him. I'm wondering if he thought **Well, the county treated my badly for 12 years, so I don't care if my departure causes confusion or makes more work for the county. The county deserves it.**

That is another potential motivation for walk away. There is no shortage of potential motives.

 

[Trackergd]

Was able to spend about an hour today in Lewisburg. Walked the park, checked out the rail bridge and the highway bridge. Water level is up. Took pictures. Nothing like boots on the ground to put you in the moment and give you a perspective that pictures do not. Will try to spend another hour or more Friday in the SOS and on the far side of the river. Have some photographs and will take more. This is an ideal spot for a clandestine meeting, not so much for an abduction or homicide. Jumping in the river looks less likely as jumping off the bridge would be the only way to pull it off and it would be obvious to anyone in the area. Where the mini was parked was interesting and the SOS is a bit bigger than I anticipated. Need to pull my thoughts and pictures together so it follows my gut feelings. The far side of the river will wrap up any loose ends for me. Trying to get back down there early Friday. In Rochester NY right now.