PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #15

[J. J. in Phila]

What about the houses across the river whose backyards are along the old rail right of way (if I understand your previous post correctly)? I was wondering whether there had been any major housing projects in that area. I know that around here, before they begin any kind of construction project, the first they they do is go in and tear up everything (even uprooting large trees) with bulldozers. Skeletal remains could easily get churned into the soil and hidden.

Those are all pre-2005.

 

[Trackergd]

What about the houses across the river whose backyards are along the old rail right of way (if I understand your previous post correctly)? I was wondering whether there had been any major housing projects in that area. I know that around here, before they begin any kind of construction project, the first they they do is go in and tear up everything (even uprooting large trees) with bulldozers. Skeletal remains could easily get churned into the soil and hidden.

There was no new construction along the right of way either on old or new Rt45. I looked at that area very carefully from both roads, got out and walked over for a closer look in a couple of spots. After exiting from the rail bridge, it appears that the rail right of way became elevated once it crossed the road as the earth is built up into the classic raised rail bed. Most of it is in back yards and while some is lightly wooded, others are mowed green grass and in some cases, folks store trailers and other items on it. I wanted to walk it, however that would have been a clear case of trespass. Binoculars from the road told me all I needed to know.

 

[Trackergd]

All that said, TG indicated that there was a restaurant RFG liked someplace east of the Susquehanna; nobody remembered seeing him there on 4/15. He did know about that area. There is a May's Drive-in about 150' south of that intersection; it has a parking lot and is easily visible from the intersection. RFG could have turned there or even drive a mile to Montandon and turn there. I'm not seeing that a barrier (no pun intended) to RFG crossing the river, turn around someplace, recross the Susquehanna.

I did stop at May's drive in and agree that would be a spot to turn around, or even grab a quick bite. It is also on the same side as the bridge footpath. He could also have turned around in what appears to have been a service station at one time on one corner of the intersection. The thing that bugs me is that a bright red mini would have stood out like a house on fire.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I did stop at May's drive in and agree that would be a spot to turn around, or even grab a quick bite. It is also on the same side as the bridge footpath. He could also have turned around in what appears to have been a service station at one time on one corner of the intersection. The thing that bugs me is that a bright red mini would have stood out like a house on fire.

I measured the distance from the Mini to May's; it is less than 3,500 feet. Even for me, that is walking distance.

Several points.

I have heard of a report of RFG being seen on the "other side" of the river. Whether or not is was ruled out or not, I don't know. I don't know the day or the location either; my source has been mistaken in the past. It is possible that RFG drove the Mini east of the river, was seen, but it has not been released.

TG indicated that RFG liked a restaurant east of Lewisburg. According to him, LE did check it, but it had been crowded and nobody could remember if he was there on 4/15-4/16. It is possible that people saw it and forgot about it.

Yesterday, I drove to the store and saw a red Mini Cooper on the way. I cannot remember a single other car, and had I not been interested in the Gricar case, the Mini would not have been in my memory.

Assuming that RFG tossed the laptop from the Mini, he could have done it at night. I think May's closes at 8:00 PM, currently at least. Except for a passing car, it would be possible for him to have crossed the river, turned and dropped the laptop from the bridge, without been seen. Later at night, there would be less traffic. If he turned left onto 45 from 405, waiting for the light to turn green, he could be pretty sure that there would not be a car behind him.

I'm not suggesting that is what happened, but it is one of those many things that is possible. I'm not totally convinced that RFG is the one that tossed the laptop or that it was tossed from the Mini.

 

[Trackergd]

I agree that the laptop and drive could have been dropped from the mini. To me it would have been much easier for a passenger to toss them than the driver. Pretty much reach out the window, over the concrete wall and drop while moving. It would be more difficult for the driver, depending on how the interior of the car is laid out. I'll have to stop at a mini dealer and take a look.

 

[Trackergd]

This area just does not seem to be an ideal place to abduct someone. If RFG had helpers, perhaps they were the ones that drove the mini across the bridge, turned and came back to drop the laptop and drive before parking the Mini again. Might also explain the cigarette smell and ash.

I really wish we could pull a cross functional team from our group here to meet there and put our observations together after walking the park, the bridge, the town and the SOS. It's a 2 1/2 hour drive each way for me. There is more I want to see, investigate and experience about Lewisburg and the spots RFG was reported to have been seen.

Unless something else comes to light, the mystery woman will forever remain a mystery. I ran out of time, but was planning to casually talk to the sales staff at the SOS to see if anyone meeting the mystery woman's description suddenly gave notice and moved away. Can't help but feel that one or more people in Lewisburg know more than they are telling or know something but don't know it is the key to the case. Might be a good followup article in whatever paper is dominant in Lewisburg.

 

[Trackergd]

J.J., if you know the place RFG liked to eat, or at least the town in is in across the river, let me know so I can dig at that as well. Might be another clue there.

 

[Trackergd]

I wonder what Patty did with Ray's antiques?
People have said he collected antique toys but I've never known if they meant " Early Americana" metal banks and so forth, or Lionel trains and early Matchbox cars from his childhood era, or vintage Steiff bears, or just what.

There is no shortage of Lionel trains, Matchbox cars, Tonka trucks and early iron collectible motorcycles, cars and trucks. I would like to know what PF did with them as well. Could they have been the very items I picked up and looked at when I was there? Thought provoking to say the least.

 

[Trackergd]

There is no substitute for "boots on the ground". Have my pictures, dialog and gut feelings changed anyone's theories, created new scenario's, cemented a particular theory for you or raised new questions?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

J.J., if you know the place RFG liked to eat, or at least the town in is in across the river, let me know so I can dig at that as well. Might be another clue there.

No, TG said it, but never gave the specifics. It could be in Milton, for all I know. LE did check it out; nobody remembers seeing him on those days. There were at least two restaurants within a thousand feet of the crossroads on 4/15/05, May's Drive-In, and the River House Pub (closed in 2015).

Nobody in the SOS could identify the "Mystery Woman," so it wasn't someone who worked there, or shopped there regularly. Petito actually said that she shopped there regularly, and would be easily identifiable. We can remove any employee or a frequent shopper at the SoS from the list.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Since Zaccagni had floated (no pun intended) that RFG body could have been destroyed by going over the "canvass dam" near Northumberland, I thought I'd look at some of the problems:

1. The dam is inflatable; it is tough canvas over inflatable rubber bladders. According to TG, it was not inflated at the time. http://www.visitcentralpa.org/things-to-do/adam-t-bower-dam

2. There is no other dam between Lewisburg and Northumberland; a distance of about 7.5 miles. The next dam is at Shamokin, just under 10 miles from Lewisburg.

3. Here is news story on rescues at "low head dam," from a Harrisburg area news station; it is from 1996. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGUTqPwBuHg While encountering one is dangerous, and usually fatal, they do not destroy bodies; bodies are almost always recovered.

All higher dams are south of Harrisburg.

I have not seen an account of any body going into the West Branch of the Susquehanna and not being found. There were two children that drowned after RFG disappeared in Lewisburg, south of the bridge. Their bodies were found within 36 hours and were recovered no more than 500 yards from where they were last seen.

The odds on RFG's body ever being in the river and not being discovered are less than 1%.

 

[Trackergd]

I agree that RFG going into the river is 0-1% having been there. Even with the water high, he would have had to either climb over the railing or someone toss him over the railing and at that, depending where along the footpath he went over, it is possible he would have landed in the mud in a shallow spot and have been stuck there. As there were folks fishing at the times I was there, I concluded the same was probably true on or about the date RFG went missing and a "floater" or a "snag" would have been spotted in short order.

 

[Trackergd]

No, TG said it, but never gave the specifics. It could be in Milton, for all I know. LE did check it out; nobody remembers seeing him on those days. There were at least two restaurants within a thousand feet of the crossroads on 4/15/05, May's Drive-In, and the River House Pub (closed in 2015).

Nobody in the SOS could identify the "Mystery Woman," so it wasn't someone who worked there, or shopped there regularly. Petito actually said that she shopped there regularly, and would be easily identifiable. We can remove any employee or a frequent shopper at the SoS from the list.

Well that answers a few questions. I guess that leaves the question to be asked at the Roller Mill as a followup. If you were going to walk away and took the time to go to the SOS to look at your beloved antiques, why would you not have a last meal at a nearby restaurant you enjoyed, notably if you were making a "day of it" so to speak?

 

[Trackergd]

As a side note to those new to the thread, my direct ancestor founded Lewisburg and went missing on a trip back to Philadelphia. A missing person case that predates RFG by a couple of hundred years.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

As a side note to those new to the thread, my direct ancestor founded Lewisburg and went missing on a trip back to Philadelphia. A missing person case that predates RFG by a couple of hundred years.

But his house is still there.

 

[Trackergd]

But his house is still there.

I wonder if I have legal claim?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I don't believe this was posted, but it is BPD talking about the case; it is last month:

http://www.wearecentralpa.com/news/cold-case-report-ray-gricar/983415971

Weaver basically ruled out murder.

 

[SeekingJana]

I don't believe this was posted, but it is BPD talking about the case; it is last month:

http://www.wearecentralpa.com/news/cold-case-report-ray-gricar/983415971

Weaver basically ruled out murder.

Thanks so much for posting this. I don't have news alerts set up any longer.
I'm kinda surprised you didn't give this to us on April 15th,

 

[SeekingJana]

I wonder if I have legal claim?

Tracker, I'm still functioning with a full case of influenza ( and Nyquil gel caps). Meaning I'm not tracking too well in the archived threads, IYKWIM.

IF you have time, would you share the Lewisburg founding story with all of us? I'd love to know your historical connection there. EVERYTHING that makes Lewisburg seem like a living, quaint, friendly, sunny, individual town is extremely helpful to me.. The TV footage of the town on the docs were so dreary and bleak. I know they shot the footage to be that way on purpose, but there's way too little light and life.

Help us know Lewisburg better, OK?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I don't believe this was posted, but it is BPD talking about the case; it is last month:

http://www.wearecentralpa.com/news/cold-case-report-ray-gricar/983415971

Weaver basically ruled out murder.

I've been thinking about this overnight. As far as Weaver goes, he is correct, but he does not go far enough.

Is it likely that RFG was in Lewisburg. Yes, beyond a reasonable doubt.*

Would be exceptionally difficult, if not impossible, for RFG to murdered in the SoS or the parking lot or along Water Street and his body moved and hidden? Would it have been exceptionally difficult, if not impossible to kidnap him from that area? In both cases, difficult, if not impossible?

Is there evidence RFG was planning to be in Lewisburg? Yes, he checked the weather and drew a map on his office computer; the last time he could have accessed it was 4/14/05. That is beyond a reasonable doubt.*

Is there evidence that he had contact with someone else in Lewisburg? Yes, though not beyond a reasonable doubt. There is evidence that he was with someone else, the "Mystery Woman." There was evidence that someone smoked a cigarette, even briefly, in the Mini.* There is scent evidence that he he could have gotten into another vehicle. Aside from the smoking evidence, there is at least evidence, but not absolute proof, that he was with someone else on 4/15/05 - 4/16/05. That evidence is consistent with RFG meeting and then leaving the area, voluntarily, with someone else.

That is consistent with the theory that RFG met with foul play, but not in that immediate area. The evidence does not say, "That this is what happened." It is consistent, however, with saying, "This could have happened."

*I'm hoping to put up a few things that are, IMO at least, beyond a reasonable doubt.