PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #15

[J. J. in Phila]

Jana, Margo and Tracker, I feel older than all of you, combined.

There a couple of things kind of runs through my mind related to this.

1. There was a line in Citizen Kane about old age being the disease, "that you don't look forward to being cured of." There are physical changes. One possibility, that goes to suicide, is that RFG was aging and not really happy about it. As we get older, maybe we can empathize with the feeling.

2. RFG may have done everything he wanted to do in life and that there wasn't much more to accomplish. He wanted to be a prosecutor. He was the head prosecutor for almost 20 years.

RFG was in a position where he could run everything and still go into court and actually argue a case. A cabinet or sub cabinet at the US Department of Justice, or State Attorney General would be two higher positions, in theory. Rarely, if ever, do they go into court and argue a case. Except for possibly being a US Attorney, if RFG wanted to spend at least some of his time in court, this was the top position.

RFG made it. He really had reached the top, within his profession, in terms of professional activity. He completed his bucket list.

Both of those things could be something that would contribute to suicide.

And a point for walkaway would be this. On Sunday, RFG will have vanished for 13 years. If he had completed his term of office and retired, I seriously doubt that anyone would have been mentioning him (at least until the Sandusky case). Even with that, look at the Altoona-Johnstown Diocese case, how much do we talk about about what the prosecutor's did, or didn't, do.

By vanishing and leaving a mystery behind, RFG has become more well known than he ever was while he was here. He left a greater mark there than he did in his, well respected, professional life.

 

[SeekingJana]

59 is not old, it qualifies as "Classic". I'm 63 and qualify as "Antique". I used to be "Hot Rod"....

I was badly betrayed about 15 years ago, then she burned down the house with everything in it.

I have survived by keeping two things in mind: "Someone else has it worse than you do" and "Worry is interest paid on a debt that never comes due".

Tracker, I appreciate so much that out of everything and all the years, we are getting to know each other here, all of us who want to participate in talking about the issue of aging to middle age, being both " successful" and " settled" into a life, then having it blown apart by the person we are usually legally and emotionally bound to. I'm sorry you were also hurt badly, but know you are a trooper, a hit the ground running type of survivor. Thank you for sharing your touchstone phrases that help you.
Mine are " One day at a time, with a smile and finding at least one thing to do to help another person or an animal in trouble" and, as I've said, The Serenity Prayer.

While it may be a tangent of sorts because Ray's whereabouts are obviously unknown, when we go back to how we felt when someone hurt us and our lives badly, yeah, leaving town and the person behind didn't seem like a bad idea sometimes. I never expected to understand this kind of thing, not that I'm " too good or special" but because I'd seen some traits that scared me and I'd tried very hard to isolate my heart from further hurt and keep an eye on how things were being managed.. I couldn't outfox the fox. Heart be damned, the devastation to many areas of my life regarding living situations and retirement accounts which no longer exist probably cannot be rectified in my lifetime no matter what I do in the court system because I likely won't live that long. I accept it. None of us know what tomorrow will bring, anyway.

As you said, I know there are so many people hurting so much worse. I have so many strong memories of parents who loved me, I have an internal belief system in God which strengthens me when I am still and let it be, and I still have my health and mind, as far as I know, LOL

I don't mean it as a pity party thing to say " I understand how personally devastating betrayal could cause a rational and non- violent man to leave rather than react drastically". My dad was a passive and very good quiet man. He definitely would have retreated as best he could if he'd ever faced a huge betrayal by my mother. Theirs was a love that few people will ever witness or duplicate in its quiet strength and steadiness. MAYBE if I'd seen or understood instability in a relationship, I could have dealt with it easier.. but I am so thankful for having a stable and happy home life and loving parents.

We don't know about Ray, of course. Maybe, if he left for personal reasons, the leave- taking was planned for a long time. Maybe there was a contingency plan that if thing A, which was hidden to others, happened, then he'd leave.
Maybe he left in an impulsive act, and regretted it a few days later. Would the publicity make it too embarrassing to return? IDK, because I'm not him.

So many potential ways for it all to have started, and for it to have played out. All I really think is that he didn't commit suicide, and likely was not murdered in April 2005.
Looking at the years which have passed, I do not know if time, fate and fortune have been kind to Ray Gricar. I have no strong opinions about how he has fared, but I hope very much that he's been well and happy.

I want us all to be well and happy, according to our own definitions of the terms, now, and for as long as we live and remember Ray Gricar, and all the other missing children and adults in the USA.

Meant to tell you- thanks for the mention of the Jacob Wetterling case break. Both it and the fairly recent break in the Tara Grinstead case are amazing and energizing to WS members for many reasons.
WS does great work in many cases. People like you in ground SAR with trained dogs and putting in the manpower hours matter so very much. I've been saving up some $ to donate on the 15th in honor of Ray to the Go Fund Me for WS to stay viable and online. It was the best thing I could think of to do for his case from so far away in Texas.

 

[SeekingJana]

Jana, Margo and Tracker, I feel older than all of you, combined.

There a couple of things kind of runs through my mind related to this.

1. There was a line in Citizen Kane about old age being the disease, "that you don't look forward to being cured of." There are physical changes. One possibility, that goes to suicide, is that RFG was aging and not really happy about it. As we get older, maybe we can empathize with the feeling.

2. RFG may have done everything he wanted to do in life and that there wasn't much more to accomplish. He wanted to be a prosecutor. He was the head prosecutor for almost 20 years.

RFG was in a position where he could run everything and still go into court and actually argue a case. A cabinet or sub cabinet at the US Department of Justice, or State Attorney General would be two higher positions, in theory. Rarely, if ever, do they go into court and argue a case. Except for possibly being a US Attorney, if RFG wanted to spend at least some of his time in court, this was the top position.

RFG made it. He really had reached the top, within his profession, in terms of professional activity. He completed his bucket list.

Both of those things could be something that would contribute to suicide.

And a point for walkaway would be this. On Sunday, RFG will have vanished for 13 years. If he had completed his term of office and retired, I seriously doubt that anyone would have been mentioning him (at least until the Sandusky case). Even with that, look at the Altoona-Johnstown Diocese case, how much do we talk about about what the prosecutor's did, or didn't, do.

By vanishing and leaving a mystery behind, RFG has become more well known than he ever was while he was here. He left a greater mark there than he did in his, well respected, professional life.

My friend of 13 years, almost to the day,
NO, you aren't old. I know you have faced a physical challenge for as long as you can remember. I'm sure it weighs you down, both literally and figuratively ( nope, he's not big, he's fit and trim!).
But, it's your mind and your heart that matter, J.J.. You know how much I believe in this. Of course I wish you didn't have the physical problems which do get worse with aging as things tend to do, but you have a much lauded career and position. You, like Ray Gricar, have achieved much in your lifetime, are known for your excellent service in your field, and also seem to have a house full of good friends, or more.

You have weathered many storms in this case. From the start, you were outspoken and because you had strong ideas, you were made a target by some really nasty people in other forums and venues.Not here, never here. Never will be, either, if we are discussing this case when we are looking age 70 in the eye.
But, when all was said and done on the brutal sites, you came to WS, the best true crime forum that's ever existed on the Internet and likely will ever exist ( if we can help Tricia with the funding!).

You, and all of us, are safe here to post your ideas, and to speculate within decent reason, which you would adhere to as a gentleman, anyway. No one has to tell you not to be profane or to victimize a possible victim ( since we don't know what happened, he has victim status).

I agree with what you said, J.J,- To paraphrase- Where would this case be without so many unique features that made it stand out from others? Ray Gricar was/ is a man worth helping, worth finding if he was in trouble, worth caring about and praying for his well- being.

J.J., Tracker, all of you in the PA area who stop by and read and sometimes post, some fun, smart posters who aren't here right now but whom we had years of good discussions and observations to share with, you've helped the stage and the scenery in Lewisburg and Bellefonte come alive for me. I was really freaked when 3 sets of unrelated photos were made public: One was the early set of the boats and searchers on the Susquehanna with the scent or cadaver dogs on board, another was the interior of Patty's house when it was still furnished with her things but for sale. I don't t know exactly why, but the photos upset me. No resolution to this one except that the house sold and I guess all remnants of Ray's physical presence disappeared into boxes or trash.

The other startling image for me, both in still photography and video, is of Patty and Barbara together side by side at the first press conference with Lara.
Just unbelievably similar in size, hair, everything. It gives me such a weird feeling... at a distance, no one would be able to tell one from the other, especially 13 years ago. Food for thought as to how this long- range imaging might have been switched, perhaps, with no ill will towards either lady.

I hope we all know the truth one day, or are told we can't know all of the truth but that it was a walk away. Case closed due to voluntary status of walk away. Isn't that the best for him and for all who have cared about his life?
I'll be listening to the podcast if I don't forget. ( Getting old, you know, LOL).

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Retrospective story on Penn Live: http://www.pennlive.com/news/2018/0...rget2box_default_#incart_target2box_targeted_

 

[SeekingJana]

Retrospective story on Penn Live: http://www.pennlive.com/news/2018/0...rget2box_default_#incart_target2box_targeted_

Notice who and what's missing this time around? Sloane, who was a proponent of a voluntary walkaway.

Only 2 theories discussed were foul play and suicide, which I find to be narrow minded and rather insulting to Ray's intelligence. However, I also am pragmatic enough to realize that if anyone in LE said " Oh, he decided to leave for another lady/ place he wanted to live/ anything" then there kind of goes their time and salary percentage which has been allotted to this case... If there was no crime, then no investigators are needed on the " case" at all. I do think inaction is the true state of affairs- no one is doing anything, "for reasons they can't disclose", the new investigator said, or because there is nothing new to disclose, take your pick.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Notice who and what's missing this time around? Sloane, who was a proponent of a voluntary walkaway.

Only 2 theories discussed were foul play and suicide, which I find to be narrow minded and rather insulting to Ray's intelligence. However, I also am pragmatic enough to realize that if anyone in LE said " Oh, he decided to leave for another lady/ place he wanted to live/ anything" then there kind of goes their time and salary percentage which has been allotted to this case... If there was no crime, then no investigators are needed on the " case" at all. I do think inaction is the true state of affairs- no one is doing anything, "for reasons they can't disclose", the new investigator said, or because there is nothing new to disclose, take your pick.

Since his problem, SPS has not been as public since his problems.

They are really downplaying foul play. DZ actually came close to saying something like being with another woman that in the current article.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I can't get it either.

Well, I'm getting part of it.

 

[Trackergd]

I can't get it either.

Well, I'm getting part of it.

It took me about 15 min to get the link to work.

Waiting to hear what the call ins are after the broadcast.

 

[Trackergd]

The reporter that brought forth the "motorcycle gang" story just called in.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

It is not, my website, but I post here. LOL

Thanks for the shout out.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

The only two things that I noticed where was a inaccuracy was that there was two witnesses that saw him in the Mini in the SOS parking lot between 5:00 and 5:30 PM on 4/15/05 and the scent. The dog traced the scent for 20 yards.

Tracker can talk about the possibility of it being from the car.

I thought it was good and evenhanded. Bock thought the Hell's Angle story was interesting, but discounted.

 

[Trackergd]

So with all that has transpired in our 15 threads, podcasts, blogs etc, there is on scenario that I am entertaining based on a few key factors. 1. RFG's demeanor for weeks prior to him going missing. 2. The small amount of money in his bank account given his income and lack of expenses. 3. The destruction of the laptop and drive in an area where the probability of him being known on sight would have been low. I am considering that RFG was being blackmailed. It explains being worried, it explains being distracted, it explains the low bank balance, it explains getting rid of the laptop and drive that could have evidence of what he was being blackmailed for and possibly the emails between RFG and the blackmailer. It also would go to either walking away or suicide. In the podcast it was stated that the laptop was the home computer before RFG and PF bought a home PC. This explains the high speed ethernet card. This is just one theory in many I am mulling about in my head.

 

[dotr]

Just popping on with link, sorry if already been posted.
http://www.pennlive.com/news/2018/04/ray_gricar_mystery_new_investi.html

Ray Gricar mystery: New investigator takes over 13-year-old cold case
Posted April 13, 2018 at 07:15 AM

After nearly a decade chasing false leads - and absorbing the overtime pay each required - the 11-person department has returned to the usual grind of domestics and drug busts. The scant pieces of evidence Gricar left behind have been passed along. Tips are forwarded to the State Police's Troop G major case team.

"Currently, the case is classified as a missing person," said Trooper David McGarvey, in the formal tone of a public-facing spokesman. "Due to the nature of the investigation, specific details pertaining to the case will not be released."

Reminders of Gricar are everywhere in Bellefonte, a picturesque county seat whose Victorian architecture rose out of the iron industry's 19th-century heyday. The now-sleepy borough was once a political stronghold and home to five governors.

The last known image of the district attorney was taken from a surveillance camera on that Thursday night as he left the courthouse where he and his girlfriend, Patty Fornicola, worked together. She still works for the county. They were familiar faces in a borough of 6,000 residents, sharing a modest home on Collins Avenue, where he set out from the next day.

"Everybody knew him and everybody has a theory," an employee at an ice cream parlor across from the courthouse said recently between scoops. He offers his own, that Gricar entered the witness-protection program and will reemerge at the end of a very-long-lived investigation into the mob. Which mob, exactly? "Who knows?"

rbbm

 

[Trackergd]

The only two things that I noticed where was a inaccuracy was that there was two witnesses that saw him in the Mini in the SOS parking lot between 5:00 and 5:30 PM on 4/15/05 and the scent. The dog traced the scent for 20 yards.

Tracker can talk about the possibility of it being from the car.

I thought it was good and evenhanded. Bock thought the Hell's Angle story was interesting, but discounted.

The chances of RFG's skin cells being blown for a distance of 20 yards from the car when the door was opened is nil. Possibly for 3-5 feet, not 20 yards.

The chance of the dog being wrong is nil. Dogs do not go out into the field before they have had extensive training and vetting on simulated searches.

Ray was in the SOS parking lot, and that puts him in Lewisburg. Discount sightings and witnesses all day long, but the scent trail is hard fact.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Just popping on with link, sorry if already been posted.
http://www.pennlive.com/news/2018/04/ray_gricar_mystery_new_investi.html



rbbm

The story was updated, I think to include Trooper Martini.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

The chances of RFG's skin cells being blown for a distance of 20 yards from the car when the door was opened is nil. Possibly for 3-5 feet, not 20 yards.

The chance of the dog being wrong is nil. Dogs do not go out into the field before they have had extensive training and vetting on simulated searches.

Ray was in the SOS parking lot, and that puts him in Lewisburg. Discount sightings and witnesses all day long, but the scent trail is hard fact.

Agreed. I have no problem with RFG being in Lewisburg on 4/15/05.

It wasn't mentioned, but after the call from the contractor, there were two additional witness that were driving that recognized RFG. The one reported, the "county worker" was stopped at the stop line in Centre Hall and saw RFG turning. It was between 11:00-11:35 AM. It also jibes with the witness reports of RFG being in Lewisburg around "lunch time."

The county worker was revealed on Disappeared.

I think it got very little wrong and may be the best summary since Disappeared.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

So with all that has transpired in our 15 threads, podcasts, blogs etc, there is on scenario that I am entertaining based on a few key factors. 1. RFG's demeanor for weeks prior to him going missing. 2. The small amount of money in his bank account given his income and lack of expenses. 3. The destruction of the laptop and drive in an area where the probability of him being known on sight would have been low. I am considering that RFG was being blackmailed. It explains being worried, it explains being distracted, it explains the low bank balance, it explains getting rid of the laptop and drive that could have evidence of what he was being blackmailed for and possibly the emails between RFG and the blackmailer. It also would go to either walking away or suicide. In the podcast it was stated that the laptop was the home computer before RFG and PF bought a home PC. This explains the high speed ethernet card. This is just one theory in many I am mulling about in my head.

Pro:

1. Demeanor change would be consistent with some nonphysical threat.

2. It would explain the low assets.

Con:

1. No evidence of a big withdrawal or smaller unaccounted for withdrawals, especially since the change of demeanor.

Not really a con, but there can be multiple reasons to toss the drive.

 

[margol29]

Jana, Margo and Tracker, I feel older than all of you, combined.

There a couple of things kind of runs through my mind related to this.

1. There was a line in Citizen Kane about old age being the disease, "that you don't look forward to being cured of." There are physical changes. One possibility, that goes to suicide, is that RFG was aging and not really happy about it. As we get older, maybe we can empathize with the feeling.

2. RFG may have done everything he wanted to do in life and that there wasn't much more to accomplish. He wanted to be a prosecutor. He was the head prosecutor for almost 20 years.

RFG was in a position where he could run everything and still go into court and actually argue a case. A cabinet or sub cabinet at the US Department of Justice, or State Attorney General would be two higher positions, in theory. Rarely, if ever, do they go into court and argue a case. Except for possibly being a US Attorney, if RFG wanted to spend at least some of his time in court, this was the top position.

RFG made it. He really had reached the top, within his profession, in terms of professional activity. He completed his bucket list.

Both of those things could be something that would contribute to suicide.

And a point for walkaway would be this. On Sunday, RFG will have vanished for 13 years. If he had completed his term of office and retired, I seriously doubt that anyone would have been mentioning him (at least until the Sandusky case). Even with that, look at the Altoona-Johnstown Diocese case, how much do we talk about about what the prosecutor's did, or didn't, do.

By vanishing and leaving a mystery behind, RFG has become more well known than he ever was while he was here. He left a greater mark there than he did in his, well respected, professional life.

Thanks JJ, Now you have me waffling again. LOL!

When I think about how close RFG was to his retirement, I wonder why he just didn't wait to retire and then move to Fiji or wherever might be his dream destination. I am close to retirement age myself and would love to move to a warmer climate. That is why I tend to believe that:

1. If it were a walk-away, something really nasty, bad, treacherous, life-altering, hurtful thing happened to him. Something so awful but private he had to leave everything behind.

2. For whatever reason someone had it in for RFG. They lured him to SOS and kidnapped him and made him disappear permanently.

Even though you stated some very good reasons for possible suicide, if that were the case after 13 years something of him would have surfaced by now. If suicide, you can't 'hide your body. If you go into the woods, someone would come across some bones or clothing or shoes or something. If he jumped into the river, I believe he would have been found by now. Also, wouldn't he leave some kind of note? At least to his daughter?

Maybe some day we will find out the truth. I hope so.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

You aren't the only one waffling.

Respectfully snipped:

1. If it were a walk-away, something really nasty, bad, treacherous, life-altering, hurtful thing happened to him. Something so awful but private he had to leave everything behind.

2. For whatever reason someone had it in for RFG. They lured him to SOS and kidnapped him and made him disappear permanently.

As for the first, it could just something he wanted to do. There can be several monetary reasons. It could be to show up LE. There could be something that he was worried about coming out in the public. A lot of "coulds" in there.

As for the second. It is a virtual impossibility for someone to be taken from that lot. It is too visible from the street and surrounding houses. Water Street is fairly well traveled; it's the local short cut. It was also Parents' Weekend at Bucknell, so there was higher than normal foot traffic.

It would be possible for RFG to have left with someone, voluntarily; then, someplace less public, something happens and RFG is killed or dies.

Even though you stated some very good reasons for possible suicide, if that were the case after 13 years something of him would have surfaced by now. If suicide, you can't 'hide your body. If you go into the woods, someone would come across some bones or clothing or shoes or something. If he jumped into the river, I believe he would have been found by now. Also, wouldn't he leave some kind of note? At least to his daughter?

Maybe some day we will find out the truth. I hope so.

The majority of suicides do not leave notes, so would not see that as unusual.

One of the great arguments against suicide is the lack of remains. What I am trying to do is look at how a particular piece of evidence fits into a theory.

Here the evidence is RFG's demeanor. Is his demeanor consistent with someone in a suicidal depression? Absolutely. Is his demeanor consistent with someone planning to walk away. Yes, the excitement and focus for that could cause that demeanor. What if he was planning to meet someone there? Depending on the purpose of that meeting, yes.

This particular piece of evidence can fit with many scenarios. Some are quite limited. Some evidence may be coincidence.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Podcast up: http://www.foreveraltoona.com/womens-room-podcast/