PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #15

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Lots of disinformation out there...
With NO evidence of foul play or suicide, all this can be is a Missing Persons case.

That fact is sometimes emphasized, sometimes glossed over. We need to be very precise about the status of " Missing Person" when discussing the case with people who might not realize there's no evidence of foul play.
 
I've been thinking about this since Tracker posted a page or so back about possible blackmail.

In my very humble opinion, this goes to the same " self- protection" set of rules we follow:
1) Don't allow yourself to be leveraged out of your own house, vehicle, safe place.
Don't ever give into the threat of a gun at your head. If they have one and it's loaded, you are in more danger in their vehicle or dwelling than in your own. Ray would have known this without even thinking twice.

2) Don't ever pay a ransom. Never.
Understood in this is " Don't pay for silence or protection" aka " blackmail".
It never ends. The blackmailer is likely far more dangerous than the issue causing the threats or payoffs.
There is no sign that Ray Gricar was involved in criminal activity. If he were involved in something criminal which was clandestine, he would be the prime person to turn the whole operation in and turn state's witness.

IMO, he is practically " unblackmailable" because he had leverage which the average Joe doesn't have. Also- again, the facts: He was retiring in just months, so loss of career would be embarrassing but not earth- shaking. He was not married so no wife to leave him, taking no children or house, because he didn't have young children or a house either. There is personal embarrassment, but he was smart enough to have turned himself into a hero in the piece by implicating the blackmailer and the blackmailer's cohorts. ( Rarely does large scale blackmail involve only a perp. and a pigeon).

Then, there's the issue of a con trying to extort money from a sitting District Attorney. That person or those people would face much harsher sentences because of who they had targeted. Another deterrent for him to be a victim of a crime.

He made himself an asset poor person. HE put the Mini in Patty's name. HE chose to live in her house and paid off her mortgage instead of them buying a house together with a mortgage.
But- he did things which cost money on a personal level. He went shopping, he drove his sports car fast, he dined out, he wasn't a miserly pauper. He was a well- dressed, neat man. He used credit cards and he used an ATM.

I could be very wrong, but I think he was probably the least likely target posible of a successful blackmail for some crime that's never been uncovered or even hinted at in 13 years.
IF he was involved in something like what Sandusky did ( but not a part of Sandusky's world) then I think he would have been the one to get the goods on the pedos. and turn them in. He had a daughter. He raised her. He was a known advocate for children. I do not believe he was involved in harming children in any way, this is ALL hypothetical.

I see no way he'd bow to a criminal who was a blackmailer. I think if someone called him and said " We have Lara", which is likely the worst thing that could happen to him, he'd be on a secure line to the FBI in less than 10 minutes. He wouldn't be raiding the wall safe, as a metaphor.

Just my opinion, with great respect to Tracker as well. I know the low saved money thing is always a big question mark.
 
I wouldn't say that RFG could never be blackmailed, but I would have the problem of why would a blackmailer kill him.

If I were to blackmail someone, I'd never want to harm my victim. I want my victim to continue to pay. A dead victim won't give me cent.

That said, a DA, and DA, is probably going to have damaging information on a number of people. The DA could easily blackmail someone.
 
J. J. in Phila said:
I wouldn't say that RFG could never be blackmailed, but I would have the problem of why would a blackmailer kill him.

If I were to blackmail someone, I'd never want to harm my victim. I want my victim to continue to pay. A dead victim won't give me cent.

That said, a DA, and DA, is probably going to have damaging information on a number of people. The DA could easily blackmail someone.
Click to expand...

See? That's why WS is your forum. :toast:

You said this so well. :loveyou:
 
J. J. in Phila said:
Podcast up: http://www.foreveraltoona.com/womens-room-podcast/
Click to expand...

I just now listened to it.. Thanks for your representation of our case discussions, and for mention of so many points which aren't widely known but may be important. Also, it was very nice of you to mention Websleuths.com, even if I joked about it earlier and the K.C.O'Day lady got the poster status wrong.

I learned some things, or at least have some new things to think about. Could we start a discussion on these points and maybe more that concern other people?

1) Your statement that a contractor or handyman contacted Ray that AM. Either I'm too old to remember this or I've never heard of it before. The problem I have with the AM of April 15 is all in Patty's narrative, which again, are separate issues.
Has this handyman or contractor given a statement, or what? I guess I'm asking how it became known, if you can say.

Do you know if this was a licensed and bonded contractor or repairman of some type or a " Mr. Fix It" informal repairman? Do you know if he knew Patty or Ray or both prior to the phone call? Had he known Patty and her family ( it was the family home) before she met Ray?

Next, and related to this, are what I consider to be conflicting statements from Patty about the AM of the 15th. There are two versions.
1) He was asleep, she made juice and left him a note.
2) She was getting ready for work, he awoke, and she gave him juice she'd prepared. No mention of any other breakfast as I recall, nor any pertinent conversation except maybe something about Honey, the dog.

Next, this thing of " The county issued laptop served as their home computer until they purchased a desktop computer shortly before he disappeared".
Huh? WHO lets their S.O, use their work- issued government owned computer?
I had an ex husband who did... I was his wife at the time and I broke a $3500 Toshiba Satellite Pro. It was around the year 1995 or 1996 and that type of computer was extremely expensive because of the small size at the time. He was indulgent, we had a desktop computer, and he was not the darling of his branch of federal government's employer when they found out that the screen had been broken ( I have no clue how I broke it now).

Anyway, he said that unlike private companies, he had more of a responsibility for government property... I'd think Ray would as well.

This brings me to the next point I'd like to discuss if there is anything to discuss.
Could it be that Patty, not Ray, had need of erasure of the HD? I'm not at all sure why, because that's not for me to say or ask or judge. She is more of an enigma than Ray to me.
Let's say, for a new discussions' sake, that Ray wasn't thinking of retirement or his own info on the HD at all, but some things Patty had. Maybe he had photos of her of a personal nature, IDK. Maybe she wrote erotica in her spare time, IDK. He was straight laced but most of all, he was just an introvert.
She seemed to be as well. I am unless I really try not to be. ( I usually succeed but I do leave this case for months and months because I truly do not think I have anything to add most of the time). I feel guilty after I post something because I think " How many times has this already been said?"

So, we have two introverts or rather socially shy people living together and they have been using a Centre County older model laptop for at least a year to 15 months, I'd say. Back then, Usenet groups were very popular.. Also, some other forms of primitive chatting in real time with strangers about a topic. Some of them were (alt) which was an abbreviation for adult content or maybe deviancy.
I only know about them because there were several non- alt. usenet groups discussing the JonBenet Ramsey case in 1997 and so forth. Most were the original WS members, by the way. :)
And one nemesis to the purpose of WS, whom I hope never to encounter again in any format in my lifetime.

There wasn't much ON the Internet in those years except AOL as I recall. There were some game sites ( I belong to a great huge one that started in 1999). Mostly, people sent email and AOL had message boards but they were not " raunchy" at least, not where I went.
I seem to remember that AOL had " guides" who were real people posted in some of the hotter topic discussion rooms.. but I don't remember anything that could be considered *advertiser censored* or looking for some sort of escort service or a primitive version of what Craigslist is said to offer ( I have no clue about that either).

I can't say " Oh, well, there were these " hot chick" chat rooms and Patty might have chatted and downloaded some pics from " Sir LanceALot", Nope, not at all.
However, and this goes back to my training in psychology, IF he wanted to erase the laptop HD because of something that might be embarrassing or otherwise troubling for little Patty, maybe he would speak of the need for such more freely than if it was needed for his computer history, searches, docs., pics, or whatever.

He's NOT Patty, he wouldn't be asking for himself if she ALSO used the laptop as it is now said that she did, and I think it would be easier to ask about erasing someone else's " problem" than one's own. He would have one degree of separation of " guilt" no matter how trivial or silly.
Note- I don't think either one of them were deviants or criminals. This is news to me about the usage by both parties and it does open up new questions, IMO.
What Ray did was likely some eBay shopping for antique toys ande things, which was SO much fun back then... sports score lookups or broadcasts via dial up connection ( what a joy those were). Patty's use was likely quite different, but might have included some of the AOL channels for cooking and recipes, or pet care, or fashion- I don't know.
Patty has been protected throughout this investigation. Could the laptop dumping be another example of protecting Patty? Any close friend or, say, brother, with a boat and a knowledge of the river currents and the Susquehanna in Lewisburg could have dumped the parts.
 
This case has always fascinated me, as it has many others. I’ve perused posts and wanted to share a couple of my thoughts/questions. Obviously, a lot about this case doesn’t make sense, that’s why it remains such a compelling unsolved mystery.
- If Ray was embarking on a planned “walk-away,” would he really have told Patti where he was when he called her from his cell phone the morning of April 15th? He gave her an accurate location—he was driving down 192. Why would he tell her this much? (Perhaps he knew that cell records would be accessed and that the info could/would be verified.)
- If he really wanted to disappear, he could’ve done so in a manner that wouldn’t have given LE a head start in looking for him. (Unless he knew it wouldn’t ultimately matter.) Going to a populous area where he could be sighted by numerous witnesses. Leaving the car parked in the open. It seems he left a lot to chance with these actions.
- Would Ray really have wanted his friends and colleagues to pour time and money into looking for him? He had to have known foul play would be suspected and that every facet of his life would be put under the microscope. Just an odd tactic if it was, say, a suicide in which he wanted to save his loved ones the pain and embarrassment associated with that sort of demise.
 
I wonder more about other cases he prosecuted and who was released around the time he disappeared off the face of this earth. His case screams Special Prosecutor. Get on that state of PA.
 
I’m sure this has been discussed at length, but the trip to Raystown Lake the day before his disappearance—perhaps he was planning to dump the laptop there but was deterred by the fact that it wasn’t moving water and was therefore more likely to result in quick recovery of the laptop/hard drive. The Susquehanna would be the closest river to Bellefonte. Makes me think that was (at least part of) his rationale in selecting Lewisburg as his destination. (Lewisburg may be the closest point of the river in relation to Bellefonte. Maybe that’s part of the reason Ray MapQuested directions to Lewisburg shortly before his disappearance.)
However, the two branches of the Susquehanna converge In Northumberland (which is not far from Lewisburg) and form a larger main branch that flows southward. Why not travel a bit further south than Lewisburg to dump it? The water level was likely higher; perhaps the current stronger as well. I suppose Ray may not have realized this, thoigh.
 
mkochend said:
This case has always fascinated me, as it has many others. I’ve perused posts and wanted to share a couple of my thoughts/questions. Obviously, a lot about this case doesn’t make sense, that’s why it remains such a compelling unsolved mystery.
- If Ray was embarking on a planned “walk-away,” would he really have told Patti where he was when he called her from his cell phone the morning of April 15th? He gave her an accurate location—he was driving down 192. Why would he tell her this much? (Perhaps he knew that cell records would be accessed and that the info could/would be verified.)
- If he really wanted to disappear, he could’ve done so in a manner that wouldn’t have given LE a head start in looking for him. (Unless he knew it wouldn’t ultimately matter.) Going to a populous area where he could be sighted by numerous witnesses. Leaving the car parked in the open. It seems he left a lot to chance with these actions.
- Would Ray really have wanted his friends and colleagues to pour time and money into looking for him? He had to have known foul play would be suspected and that every facet of his life would be put under the microscope. Just an odd tactic if it was, say, a suicide in which he wanted to save his loved ones the pain and embarrassment associated with that sort of demise.
Click to expand...

Welcome. :)

Just for this post, assume that RFG did walk away.

Route 192 is about 40-45 miles long. RFG made the call from just north of Centre Hall;
I'm sure that anyone associated with LE would know about using cell phone's pings to determine location.

RFG knew that anyone looking for him knew he was an "adventurous driver," and that he was going into a rural area where there was no cell coverage. What would be the logical thing, at that point, that LE would think explained his absence? That he was in an accident.

That was the assumption when RFG did not call home or contact anyone on 4/16/05. LE started looking along Route 192. Remember that if RFG was planning this, he would be in Lewisburg. He wants LE to search 192, because he is not there; he is in Lewisburg or in transit to a new location.

As for giving LE a head start, maybe he didn't. He may not have expected PEF to call the police until the next morning. He might not have expected LE to start a search Saturday morning. In the PennLive article, Zaccagni noted that were giving RFG higher priority. He may have expected a longer gap.

The Mini was in PEF's name. RFG bought it and, if he was planning to walk away, would have wanted her to have it. He parked the Mini in the second row, so it would be likely there would be other cars blocking the view. He may have felt, correctly, that the Mini would be more easily spotted along the street than in the lot. Remember, that the PSP trooper was heading back at the end of his shift when he spotted it; it was basically luck. Parking the Mini in the SoS lot may have delayed LE.

RFG never asked anyone to look for him. At least some of RFG's personal life ended up in the Susquehanna; it was on the drive. He might have wanted to leave a mystery, so that people would remember him. 13 years after he disappeared, we are talking about him. I doubt if we would be had RFG retired at the end of 2005.
 
The Susquehanna is the closest river, but not at Lewisburg. Lock Haven is about 3/5 of the distance.

Lock Haven is in the Johnstown-Altoona-State College (JASC) media market; the local TV stations people tune into are from Johnstown or Altoona. Even the paper in Lock Haven covers Centre County.

If RFG had gone north, south or east, 50 miles from Bellefonte, he would still be in JASC media market. There is a pretty good chance he would be recognized; because after 20 years, he had been on television a lot.

Only if he went east would RFG be out of that media market. That could fit with some homicide scenarios or walkaway.
 
The only thing that I was that the call was made by a contractor and RFG answered it. Since there were other sightings by people that recognized RFG, a lawyer and county worker, after this, it isn't too important.

Snipped for brevity.

SeekingJana said:
Next, and related to this, are what I consider to be conflicting statements from Patty about the AM of the 15th. There are two versions.
1) He was asleep, she made juice and left him a note.
2) She was getting ready for work, he awoke, and she gave him juice she'd prepared. No mention of any other breakfast as I recall, nor any pertinent conversation except maybe something about Honey, the dog.
Click to expand...

The story is that PEF poured the juice, RFG went back to sleep and then she left the note.

Next, this thing of " The county issued laptop served as their home computer until they purchased a desktop computer shortly before he disappeared".
Huh? WHO lets their S.O, use their work- issued government owned computer?
Click to expand...

The guy in charge does. RFG could make the "proper user" determination. PEF worked at the same office, so she could use it for business.

The laptop was an older model and RFG had it for more thana year. The cost was minor and he could reimburse the county for any damages to it.


This brings me to the next point I'd like to discuss if there is anything to discuss.
Could it be that Patty, not Ray, had need of erasure of the HD? I'm not at all sure why, because that's not for me to say or ask or judge. She is more of an enigma than Ray to me.
Let's say, for a new discussions' sake, that Ray wasn't thinking of retirement or his own info on the HD at all, but some things Patty had. Maybe he had photos of her of a personal nature, IDK. Maybe she wrote erotica in her spare time, IDK. He was straight laced but most of all, he was just an introvert.
Click to expand...

She was the one that brought the laptop's existence to LE's attention. RFG very clearly talked about cleaning that drive.

So, we have two introverts or rather socially shy people living together and they have been using a Centre County older model laptop for at least a year to 15 months, I'd say. Back then, Usenet groups were very popular.. Also, some other forms of primitive chatting in real time with strangers about a topic. Some of them were (alt) which was an abbreviation for adult content or maybe deviancy.
Click to expand...

She seems less of an introvert than RFG. I've never heard her described in the terms RFG was in that regard, e.g., "reserved," "aloof," "a recluse."

There wasn't much ON the Internet in those years except AOL as I recall. There were some game sites ( I belong to a great huge one that started in 1999). Mostly, people sent email and AOL had message boards but they were not " raunchy" at least, not where I went.
I seem to remember that AOL had " guides" who were real people posted in some of the hotter topic discussion rooms.. but I don't remember anything that could be considered *advertiser censored* or looking for some sort of escort service or a primitive version of what Craigslist is said to offer ( I have no clue about that either).
Click to expand...

Thee were a lot message boards. The day RFG disappeared, I was on one relating to politics and two on procedure. I remember that a site, "thewhitehouse," was a *advertiser censored* sight; a friend's told her about it in error at school. There were a number of dating sights.

Patty has been protected throughout this investigation. Could the laptop dumping be another example of protecting Patty? Any close friend or, say, brother, with a boat and a knowledge of the river currents and the Susquehanna in Lewisburg could have dumped the parts.
Click to expand...

She was initially polygraphed, so I don't know how protected. No relative with a Lewisburg connection. That said, Lewisburg is not exactly on the other side of the world from Centre County. This would not require a high degree of expertise.

I will point out something else. They replaced the laptop with a real home computer, that LE checked. Anything "naughty" on the laptop could be easily put on the desktop. LE has the desktop.

There are any number of reasons RFG could have wanted to clean the laptop prior to returning it to the county. "Naughty" things are just one of a long list of possibilities.
 
J. J. in Phila said:
The only thing that I was that the call was made by a contractor and RFG answered it. Since there were other sightings by people that recognized RFG, a lawyer and county worker, after this, it isn't too important.

Snipped for brevity.



The story is that PEF poured the juice, RFG went back to sleep and then she left the note.

There are any number of reasons RFG could have wanted to clean the laptop prior to returning it to the county. "Naughty" things are just one of a long list of possibilities.
Click to expand...

There are two different versions of the early AM on April 15th. In one, Ray was sleeping and she left him a note, apparently telling him she'd made juice ( IDK why that was important- Maybe because LE took glasses which had contained OJ into evidence?)
The other was that he was awake, talked to Patty, and drank a glass of OJ with her, not later.
IDK which is correct.

So, when you say a contractor talked to Ray by phone, do you mean on a day other than the 15th? Because ALL we have been officially told about the 15th is that he called his own office around 11: 30 AM, Patty answered, they had the convo about him being on the road leisurely, that the dog would need attention before he returned, and Patty relates that they said their " I love you's".;

I've never read or heard that a contractor called his home the AM of the 15th. He was there alone, so who has told this? We have not had access to the phone records. I think it matters if we can add a layer of knowledge that is substantiated to his actions on the 15th. Talking to a contractor on the phone is an action.
IF I were suicidally depressed, I wouldn't have answered the phone, period.

Agree that there may have never been anything incriminating or important to Ray's case on the laptop, plus people have said they saw him sitting with the laptop in Lewisburg.
 
J. J. in Phila said:
In 2007, this thread was started: https://www.websleuths.com/forums/s...old-case-in-the-making-2-yrs-tomorrow-4-15-05

11 years later, we know more, but it is still a cold case.
Click to expand...

No, this isn't right. There are threads missing because this case was discussed as soon as he was declared a missing person. The flyer was posted, other pics of him as they came in. The poster who started the thread you linked," Christine", used to be a moderator here. I don't know if the early thread or threads were deleted or moved but there were more. I don't think they were especially interesting, but his Missing flyer was definitely posted here and there was some discussion in the earliest days, not 2 years later.

Edited to add: There was continuous case discussion from the first of his disappearance. His case was even a featured case in 2006.
Many archived threads can be found through a name search.

Here is thread ONE by date of his going missing and the start of WS discussion:
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?22202-Ray-Gricar-Central-Pennsylvania
 
SeekingJana said:
There are two different versions of the early AM on April 15th. In one, Ray was sleeping and she left him a note, apparently telling him she'd made juice ( IDK why that was important- Maybe because LE took glasses which had contained OJ into evidence?)
The other was that he was awake, talked to Patty, and drank a glass of OJ with her, not later.
IDK which is correct.
Click to expand...

This is the sequence of events, as I understand it. The woke up. RFG stated the he was going to "play hooky." PEF got up and poured him some juice. RFG when back to sleep when she checked the next time. She wrote the note and left for work.

So, when you say a contractor talked to Ray by phone, do you mean on a day other than the 15th? Because ALL we have been officially told about the 15th is that he called his own office around 11: 30 AM, Patty answered, they had the convo about him being on the road leisurely, that the dog would need attention before he returned, and Patty relates that they said their " I love you's".;
Click to expand...

Yes, the contractor called between 9:00 AM and 11:00 AM on the morning of 4/15/05, probably before 10:30 AM. I know of three witnesses that saw RFG prior to noon on 4/15/05. In 2011, the BPD revealed the third, a county worker that say him turning on Route 192. They knew about that from the week of 4/18/05, but didn't reveal it until Disappeared. Her sighting corresponds with RFG being spotted at the Packwood House on 4/15 around "lunch time."

I've never read or heard that a contractor called his home the AM of the 15th. He was there alone, so who has told this? We have not had access to the phone records. I think it matters if we can add a layer of knowledge that is substantiated to his actions on the 15th. Talking to a contractor on the phone is an action.
IF I were suicidally depressed, I wouldn't have answered the phone, period.
Click to expand...

I have some sources familiar with the case files.

Agree that there may have never been anything incriminating or important to Ray's case on the laptop, plus people have said they saw him sitting with the laptop in Lewisburg.
Click to expand...

At least one person reported seeing RFG "fiddling" with the laptop while sitting in the laptop while in Lewisburg.
 
SeekingJana said:
No, this isn't right. There are threads missing because this case was discussed as soon as he was declared a missing person. The flyer was posted, other pics of him as they came in. The poster who started the thread you linked," Christine", used to be a moderator here. I don't know if the early thread or threads were deleted or moved but there were more. I don't think they were especially interesting, but his Missing flyer was definitely posted here and there was some discussion in the earliest days, not 2 years later.

Edited to add: There was continuous case discussion from the first of his disappearance. His case was even a featured case in 2006.
Many archived threads can be found through a name search.

Here is thread ONE by date of his going missing and the start of WS discussion:
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?22202-Ray-Gricar-Central-Pennsylvania
Click to expand...

There are other threads, earlier ones, that are index on the first page of this thread. This thread wasn't one of them. It was some additional discussion in 2007. It was still 11 years ago that people here (I wasn't here yet), were talking about this becoming a cold case.

There was a Ray Gricar section here that had a few other things other than the main threads. You can see the section here: https://www.websleuths.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?112-District-Attorney-Ray-Gricar
 
http://www.dailyitem.com/news/local...cle_b0bf3517-2845-5652-af00-57335d43c744.html
rbbm.
attachment.php

The case is considered active and a new trooper, Dana Martini, has been assigned to the case, according to published reports. A state police representative could not be reached for comment Saturday.

Sunbury Police Chief Tim Miller is investigating the 28-year-old cold case of Barbara Miller. Barbara Miller went missing in July 1989 and Chief Miller reopened the case in January 2017.

“These type of cases are unique and you have to think outside of the box,” Chief Miller said.

“You have to utilize resources you typically wouldn’t use in a fresh case,” he said. “Normally we (police) like to keep information close to the vest but in cold cases, you must be creative and keep the victim alive using media and social media. You have to make noise and let the dust settle. It is then when you can possibly get answers. With a click of a button, the media can reach thousands and go places we as police can’t go. I wish all the investigators luck in solving the case of Ray Gricar.”
Click to expand...
 

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