PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #15

[J. J. in Phila]

Case of missing Centre County DA

http://www.altoonamirror.com/news/local-news/2018/04/case-of-missing-centre-county-da/

Plenty of theories, but little evidence — 13 years after he vanished, still no closure on Gricar

This is the reprint of the PennLive article. It is distributed by AP.

I'm glad to see stories on it, at least in the local papers. Thanks for posting.

This doesn't have anything to do with this post, but I'd make an observation. This site is probably the last online repository for information on the Gricar case. When we post something like this, we add to that repository.

I have used this site in the past just to see how many stories were being written during a certain period. Even if it is the same story being repeated in different papers, it is still a description of the coverage. I do not intend to speak for the management, but, as a researcher, I am thrill that this site exists and that posters look for and post this material.

Thank you all!!!

 

[Trackergd]

I am really going to entrench myself in the opinion that we need to gather all the facts, observations, reports, sightings, etc and put them in chronological order with columns to the right where they can be marked as verified, not verified, etc. There are so many bits and pieces floating around that not only do I not know them all, but am having a hard time keeping them in order. If no one else has the time, I guess I will put it on my "to do" list.

Second, J.J. has me thinking about the "planted evidence" scenario. Was the phone call, leaving the Mini in Lewisburg, walking around with the mystery woman, walking around the SOS and fiddling with the PC all an attempt to have LE looking hard at Lewisburg rather than somewhere else. On that point, Lewisburg is a far better diversion than Raystown Lake. It's further away, it has a river which would be harder to search than a lake and with all the egress points, does not limit the search area as much.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I am really going to entrench myself in the opinion that we need to gather all the facts, observations, reports, sightings, etc and put them in chronological order with columns to the right where they can be marked as verified, not verified, etc. There are so many bits and pieces floating around that not only do I not know them all, but am having a hard time keeping them in order. If no one else has the time, I guess I will put it on my "to do" list.

There would have to be some definition of "verified," and what facts would be on the chart. For example, on 4/15/05 no one could be sure the next DA would be; there were three viable candidates. Now, that is very clearly a fact, but is it tied into the disappearance.

Second, J.J. has me thinking about the "planted evidence" scenario. Was the phone call, leaving the Mini in Lewisburg, walking around with the mystery woman, walking around the SOS and fiddling with the PC all an attempt to have LE looking hard at Lewisburg rather than somewhere else. On that point, Lewisburg is a far better diversion than Raystown Lake. It's further away, it has a river which would be harder to search than a lake and with all the egress points, does not limit the search area as much.

You can add one additional point, Lewisburg was not in the J-A-SC media market. When the initial story that RFG was missing broke, it received coverage in the J-A-SC media market.

http://www.dishuser.org/TVMarkets/City Maps/Scranton.gif

http://www.dishuser.org/TVMarkets/City Maps/Johnstown.gif

Nobody would be looking for RFG in Lewisburg, because it would be very unlikely anybody would know that RFG was missing.

 

[Trackergd]

Is there a way to put a spreadsheet into a post?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Is there a way to put a spreadsheet into a post?

You could scan it and post it as a photo.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Occasionally, the possibility that someone was hiding RFG. It is very unlikely, but I happened across the case of Donald Eugene Webb. http://triblive.com/local/valleynew...e-webb-died-of-stroke-in-1997-authorities-say

Webb had committed a murder of the Saxonburg, PA, police chief. His wife had managed to hide him for 17 years, and buried his body after he passed. Of course, Webb had a reason to hide and he was facing the death penalty in PA; he also led a life that would have been almost as restrictive as prison.

 

[Trackergd]

So here is a start. Before I get too far along, let me know if the headings are OK or if you folks have other ideas.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

So here is a start. Before I get too far along, let me know if the headings are OK or if you folks have other ideas.

View attachment 133923

The format is great, but I would question the substance.

For example, the people at the Prison Board Meeting observed RFG. They made observations that he was mumbling his answers and comments. They also had observed RFG in previous meetings and observed that his behavior was different. Same with JKA; she observed the door slams on 4/14 and his "distraught" demeanor earlier in the week. JKA had worked for him for a long period and had observed his demeanor prior to that week. We could argue (though I wouldn't in either case) that their observations were mistaken, but each is still an observation.

Likewise, the Doctor's report was an observation. We can speculate that RFG went home after the meeting and then went to Raystown Lake.

 

[Trackergd]

The headings and stuff I stuck in were only place holders. We as a group would need to determine what to call each entry, what level to rate it at etc.

Had to start somewhere. I have a LOT on my plate right now at work, other cases and home projects, but over the next few weeks I will try and populate what I can pull from the threads. We can then put it in correct order, add anything additional from other sources and start the rating system. When done I would like to apply Root Cause Analysis tools like the 5 Why's and Ishikawa Diagram to each entry. We may have to create some polls to rate each entry as a group.

 

[SeekingJana]

Occasionally, the possibility that someone was hiding RFG. It is very unlikely, but I happened across the case of Donald Eugene Webb. http://triblive.com/local/valleynew...e-webb-died-of-stroke-in-1997-authorities-say



Webb had committed a murder of the Saxonburg, PA, police chief. His wife had managed to hide him for 17 years, and buried his body after he passed. Of course, Webb had a reason to hide and he was facing the death penalty in PA; he also led a life that would have been almost as restrictive as prison.

Really creepy and also fascinating story, J.J. Thanks for posting it.

IMO, he had 3 reasons to stay reclusive and restrict himself to small spaces when the LE came looking for him:
1) Killed a policeman, and might have gotten the death penalty.

2) He was in pain when trying to walk on his shattered ankle. I have a friend with a halfway repaired shattered ankle as well, and he said he's been in pain every day of his life since his accident.
My friend, not being a criminal, has to wear a special built up shoe or boot because the injured leg is about 2 inches shorter than the other leg. He's had a very active and happy life though.

3) The facial disfigurement-- It states in the article you linked that the police chief somehow excised Webb's lip. I don't think this was repaired, if such was even possible at the time, so he was a marked man in more ways than one.

As far as the wife burying him on the property and staying silent all these years, I guess she didn't want to go to prison, either. What else could she really do with his remains? She was a criminal for aiding and abetting a fugitive for so many years, for lying to the police about his whereabouts, and who knows what all. Mistreatment of a corpse was probably pretty low on her offenses list.

I hope Ray wasn't killed and his remains hidden. This has added a level of gore to my imagining what might have happened to him. Yikes.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

RFG did not have the the reason that Webb did to disappear. There was a scenario where RFG left with a woman, moved to another area, and then basically changed his identity. I've thought it was unlikely, but looking at the Webb case, where he didn't go out for 17 years, I'll have to reevaluate.

 

[SeekingJana]

I was discussing the case with J.J. today, and remembered something I'm not sure we've ever discussed.
DISCLAIMER- I'm not sure it matters in the least, but it could... if we look at it with " fresh eyes".
We've speculated and wondered for many years about the cigarette ash in the passenger floorboard area, right? Well, maybe the car design has something to do with why it was not removed by either Ray or the person who dropped it off their cigarette before the car was unlocked.

I test drove a Mini Cooper around 2005, and my husband is about 6 feet tall and I am taller than average.
We thought we'd have scant leg room like we had in the other sporty but small-ish cars we've either owned or one of us has had a lot of riding/ driving time in. We were shocked by the leg room in the Mini.

The Mini Cooper has extremely deep front passenger compartments and very deep foot wells. It's my recollection that because of the depth, the driver can't see into the passenger side easily and the passenger is way off to the side in their cubby. It was quite unique for a " small" car.
Our BMWs do not have this feature and they are newer models from the same manufacturer.

Might this lack of direct and easy sight have kept Ray from seeing and removing the cigarette ash if it was a newly deposited bit of trash?
And another thing about the Mini, because of the depth of the front passenger compartments, it's not a breeze to slide in and out of the car. You are " held" in by seat bolsters and the overall depth.
The person who dropped the cigarette ash could have been maneuvering their way out of the car. It's a unique experience.

Also, if a person not inside the car had a bit of ash fall off a cig from an open window, likely they wouldn't have noticed it. Deep equals fairly dark, especially when standing outside the car looking in, unless the sunroof was fully open..

I wanted to post this as food for thought. IF anyone wants to test this, I wholeheartedly encourage you to take a short test drive in a Mini Cooper, without a cigarette, LOL, but maybe with a small piece of something that's easily removed like paper.
They are fun to ride in and drive, and I've never had a salesperson bug me about wanting to ride along or being pushy about trying to make a sale. It's not the BMW philosophy.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

The question is more of the nature of "Why did RFG let someone smoke in or near the Mini," or "Did RFG leave before someone smoked in his car?"

RFG should have been able to smell the smoke if it had been in the car while he was in it. He could have aired out the car, by opening the windows. It reached about 70 F that day.

 

[SeekingJana]

The question is more of the nature of "Why did RFG let someone smoke in or near the Mini," or "Did RFG leave before someone smoked in his car?"

RFG should have been able to smell the smoke if it had been in the car while he was in it. He could have aired out the car, by opening the windows. It reached about 70 F that day.

LOL, I was waiting for you to ask " who".
Obviously, we don't know who, but I wish we did. We REALLY can't narrow down a close timeframe on when a tiny bit of cigarette ash was dropped on the floorboard either, IMO.
It might not have any relationship to Ray's disappearance, or it might be connected in some way, depending on who was smoking and why Ray didn't object- if he could have objected.

I've come to think of it as artifact in a vehicle.. It likely shouldn't be in a non-smoker's car, but in and of itself, does not point to any criminality, IMO.

He might have put the windows down, we don't know. Some people are exquisitely sensitive to smells while others aren't. I am, much more than my friends, relatives, almost anyone I've ever met, It could be a help or a hindrance in my nursing career, seriously.
We don't know where Ray was on the " smell scale" but not liking cigarette smoke is not exactly the same thing as being acutely sensitive to it.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Here is article regarding the dynamics of low head dams (especially on the Susquehanna). http://www.pennlive.com/news/2018/0...rget2box_default_#incart_target2box_targeted_

The PDF explains it well.

The story is about recovery of bodies from a recent boating accident.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

LOL, I was waiting for you to ask " who".
Obviously, we don't know who, but I wish we did. We REALLY can't narrow down a close timeframe on when a tiny bit of cigarette ash was dropped on the floorboard either, IMO.
It might not have any relationship to Ray's disappearance, or it might be connected in some way, depending on who was smoking and why Ray didn't object- if he could have objected.

I've come to think of it as artifact in a vehicle.. It likely shouldn't be in a non-smoker's car, but in and of itself, does not point to any criminality, IMO.

He might have put the windows down, we don't know. Some people are exquisitely sensitive to smells while others aren't. I am, much more than my friends, relatives, almost anyone I've ever met, It could be a help or a hindrance in my nursing career, seriously.
We don't know where Ray was on the " smell scale" but not liking cigarette smoke is not exactly the same thing as being acutely sensitive to it.

To the ash, it would be "recent." RFG was meticulous about cleaning the car and would have cleared the ash, eventually. "Recent" does not mean 4/15-4/16/05.

The smell was strong enough for the police to notice it on 4/16, when the car was opened. We know that it bothered RFG enough to forbid smoking in the car. If it was noticed by LE, it had to be fairly strong.

It could be related to foul play, or to walk away, or it may have just been a smoker leaning in to ask RFG directions and unrelated to the disappearance.

It shows that:

A. There was someone smoking in proximity to the Mini when it was opened.

B. The Mini was closed up (windows up, door locked) after that.

 

[SeekingJana]

To the ash, it would be "recent." RFG was meticulous about cleaning the car and would have cleared the ash, eventually. "Recent" does not mean 4/15-4/16/05.

The smell was strong enough for the police to notice it on 4/16, when the car was opened. We know that it bothered RFG enough to forbid smoking in the car. If it was noticed by LE, it had to be fairly strong.

It could be related to foul play, or to walk away, or it may have just been a smoker leaning in to ask RFG directions and unrelated to the disappearance.

It shows that:

A. There was someone smoking in proximity to the Mini when it was opened.

B. The Mini was closed up (windows up, door locked) after that.

If he was stressed and taking time off work to sleep, possibly indicating depression or worry, he might not have given his car as much attention as usual.
I've seen this in my spouse....
He's also a meticulous car owner/ upgrading things, etc.

Likewise, whether or not a non- smoker allows someone to sit in their car and finish a cigarette or maybe smoke with their head hanging out the window or with the sunroof open ( I've done both) depends a lot on the relationship of the non- smoker to the smoker.
I had a husband who smoked. I truly loved him and tolerated the smoking just to be with him. My health suffered and I smelled like second hand smoke.
It did not have a good ending and now he's dying from cancer, God help and bless him, truly.

A friend or relative or business acquaintance, even someone I was dating, NO. First, I'd stop dating the smoker. Secondly, the others in the categories listed would be asked to not light up, period. If they did, I'd pretty much blow them out of the car with the windows and roof down and likely, their cigarette would not stay lit. LOL.

I'd put up with the cigarette smoke from: A LE officer who was rendering assistance if I needed it, a boss or someone similar who could adversely affect my career or life in general if asking them not to smoke is something I think would make them angry.
So, for me, it would be a matter of needing to be on the happy side of the person more than to stop them from smoking.

I think in most things which are not criminal, there are mitigating circumstances. IMO.

 

[SeekingJana]

How's the timeline coming along? Can I do anything to help?

Tracker, I like your idea of doing this. Also, what you had done looked good to me.

There aren't that many " verifiable" facts in the case, which makes a timeline more difficult.

 

[Trackergd]

How's the timeline coming along? Can I do anything to help?

Tracker, I like your idea of doing this. Also, what you had done looked good to me.

There aren't that many " verifiable" facts in the case, which makes a timeline more difficult.

I have a lot on my plate at work and we had a kitchen fire in the other house, so I am dealing with a pile of stuff right now. Hope to dig into it during the upcoming holiday. I hope that having all the facts, gossip, conjecture, statements etc. in a timeline will enable us to evaluate each item on it's own merits.

If you have tons of extra time, you can start going through the threads and pulling out anything you can find from what JJ has posted, others have found, articles etc and just pop them onto a Word document. I can then put them into an excel spreadsheet, then we can work with JJ to get them in the proper order.

 

[SeekingJana]

I'm so sorry about the fire in your house. Please, take care of what needs to be done, of course.
My laptop with all the Office suite stuff on it self- destructed over a period of torturous months. I don't have Office suite on this laptop as it was intended to be a backup only.

I'm sorry we've both had mini disasters this week- yours more than mine, of course. Again, thanks for all you do. It's great to work together, and I will be making a rather basic spreadsheet by going through the thread archives. What's actually verifiable by LE is so little, it's kind of amazing after so many years, isn't it?