PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #4

[J. J. in Phila]

Very good point.

I think that some people have built solid enough reputations to garner a much quicker response than others in the minds of LE. Fair or not, certain people are obviously much less likely to be voluntarily missing as far as missing persons reports go.

He actually did disappear in 2000, sort of. He was at a baseball game in Cleveland and didn't tell anyone where he was going. LE actually checked the ballpark there after they heard the story. That came out after they talked to some people that knew Mr. Gricar the after he disappeared.

The thing was, the last thing anyone heard from him was at 11:14 AM. Ms. Fornicola was expecting him back when she got home at about 4:30-5:00 PM. She thought he was delayed. After leaving messages on his cell phone voice mail, and not getting any response, she called the local police (BPD); they put out the APB (I've heard the called the chief, who said to go ahead).

This is still a guy, holding a responsible position, that takes the day off and is last heard from 12 hours earlier, claiming (accurately) to be on a country road and not answering his voice mail. My guess is that they all were thinking accident. That would have been my first thought.

Some of the initial searches were of the road from the air, and knowing that area is both very rural and a "dead zone" for cell phones, that kind of supports the theory.

It's a bit different than Phila, because even in a "bad neighborhood," I'm never more than a few blocks from a pay phone. If I had an accident in Mt. Airy or the Northeast, I could call someone, or call a taxi or get a bus, even if I left my cell phone home. My cell phone will have complete coverage. That's very different than rural Centre and Union Counties.

 

[Julespa]

I camp in Centre County often. I can see someone disappearing no problem. Also around state college I know there are a lot of caves, some open to the public but many on private farmland (amish). I wonder if any of them were ever looked into?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I camp in Centre County often. I can see someone disappearing no problem. Also around state college I know there are a lot of caves, some open to the public but many on private farmland (amish). I wonder if any of them were ever looked into?

You are quite correct about the caves; the whole area is underlined with limestone. I have not heard of any of the numerous caves being checked, but my understanding was that a (limestone) quarry in the Lewisburg area may have been.

(I'm originally from the general area, went to PSU, and had a field trip to Sinking Valley as part of a geology class.)

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Some breaking news. Mr. Gricar apparently asked how to wipe a hard drive prior to disappearing.

http://www.centredaily.com/news/breaking_news/story/874382.html

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Mr. Gricar had expressed an interest in erasing the drive well prior to his disappearance.

http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/874817.html

 

[Bobbisangel]

It sounds like he may have just decided to take off and resume his life elsewhere. I don't think it would be that hard to do. People can get a new drivers license and birth cert...just about anything that they need. Move far enough away so that you have a good chance to never running into anyone that you may know and you are pretty safe. But why run off? Why not just tell people that you have been close to that you are leaving and go. I'll never understand this running off when a person is an adult unless they are hiding from the law.

I think of Ray's brother's suicide and how it affected the brother's sons. Well, just disappearing without a word is nearly as terrible for your loved ones. It makes me wonder if he would do that to his daughter and to his brother's sons. His disappearance is really a big puzzle.

Interesting that he was interested in those men who had just taken off to start new lives and about knowing how to erase a hard drive. Just makes me wonder if he hadn't been planning to start a new life himself and might have been planning for it for a while. If he did just up and leave I'll bet he had money socked away in some bank in Cayman or somewhere like that.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

It sounds like he may have just decided to
Interesting that he was interested in those men who had just taken off to start new lives and about knowing how to erase a hard drive. Just makes me wonder if he hadn't been planning to start a new life himself and might have been planning for it for a while. If he did just up and leave I'll bet he had money socked away in some bank in Cayman or somewhere like that.

IF this was a walkaway, if would almost have to be something planned for a while, literally years.

Just the transfer of money to a Cayman Island account, for example, would be traceable (a large amount, either several large transaction or dozens of smaller ones). Getting a fake SSN and ID could not be accomplished in an afternoon.

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

Mr. Gricar had expressed an interest in erasing the drive well prior to his disappearance.

http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/874817.html

This is incredibly shocking! Unfortunately, the link isn't working for me to be able to read it!

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

IF this was a walkaway, if would almost have to be something planned for a while, literally years.

Just the transfer of money to a Cayman Island account, for example, would be traceable (a large amount, either several large transaction or dozens of smaller ones). Getting a fake SSN and ID could not be accomplished in an afternoon.

How long ago was the baseball incident? I wonder if the baseball incident planted this idea in his head after seeing how everyone reacted to him being missing.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

Unless Ray had a break from reality, I don't see him taking off. There is a reason that people were concerned if he was gone 12 hours. It was out of character. People who are trustworthy and dependable, as Ray was, don't normally walk away unless there are severe underlying psychological issues. (Not saying that it isn't possible with his brother comitting suicide tho...as that may even indicate conditions which could be inherited etc.)

I couldn't find the story on him asking how to "erase a drive" which I am guessing is a hard drive on a computer, but that could have related to a number of things in his professional life. Could someone fill me in on that story?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

This is incredibly shocking! Unfortunately, the link isn't working for me to be able to read it!

I don't find it too shocking, just interesting. The original is down, but here is a reference to the story in Mr. Bosak's blog.

SeriouslySearching, the Cleveland trip was in 1999 or 2000; it was enough that LE called Jacobs Field in Cleveland and ask them to check before the Mini was located.

Mr. Gricar expressed an interest in making the drive unreadable a long time before he was planning to retire; the accounts make it look like a about a year prior to retirement. What is interesting is that he expressed this interest and the drive ended up unreadable and that he expressed this interest well before he disappeared.

Not definitive by a long shot.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

Who did he make this request to? Why isn't it possible that someone else rendered the drive unreadable...since he obviously didn't know how to do it himself? Maybe he was concerned that someone else WOULD do this instead of wanting to do it himself. Too many questions there.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Who did he make this request to? Why isn't it possible that someone else rendered the drive unreadable...since he obviously didn't know how to do it himself? Maybe he was concerned that someone else WOULD do this instead of wanting to do it himself. Too many questions there.

Apparently multiple friends and co-workers. It didn't take too much knowledge to remove the drive and toss it.

Yes, a number of questions, but it is odd that Mr. Gricar asked about making the drive unreadable and now the drive is unreadable.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

Apparently multiple friends and co-workers. It didn't take too much knowledge to remove the drive and toss it.

Yes, a number of questions, but it is odd that Mr. Gricar asked about making the drive unreadable and now the drive is unreadable.

My point is that if he asked others and did not give reason...he could have been worried about another person doing it and wiping out information he had on there which would have led to finding him or finding out what he was working on. I don't think he was the one to make it unreadable. See what I mean?!

 

[SeekingJana]

Apparently multiple friends and co-workers. It didn't take too much knowledge to remove the drive and toss it.

Yes, a number of questions, but it is odd that Mr. Gricar asked about making the drive unreadable and now the drive is unreadable.

J.J., your contributions to Mr. Gricar's thread are astounding. Thank you for finding things that I was unaware of.
I have ALWAYS thought he walked away, or was placed into a WPP, possibly brokering a deal that was a hybrid from a usual WPP. IOW, getting assistance because of his position but having a say in where he went.
I think he's been out of the USA for quite some time, and is safe, with no disrespect towards either him or the people left behind. I have my theory on why he left, but no hard proof so it will remain a theory until someone posts the key word or phrase that is missing.

Have you been able to find out if anyone associated with his life in PA might have " retired" to another country a year or so before Ray disappeared?

As far as the hard drive, I can't read the article either, and that makes me so upset because I have always thought there would be some proof forthcoming at some point that he PLANNED this for quite some time, maybe even years. I consider the revelation to the public that he asked this to be fairly substantive proof. One year's worth of detailed planning ( not financial but the small details) fits into my theory exactly. IF he needed the info about computer hard drives for a criminal case, he would have turned to IT experts through the justice system.

Your finding strongly suggests to me that he wanted to know for personal reasons. Ray Gricar, if you ever Google your name wherever you are, please know that there are free-thinking people in this country who think you have the right to be wherever you want to be, pursuing life and personal happiness. I hope that you are doing both. Godspeed.

 

[SeekingJana]

My point is that if he asked others and did not give reason...he could have been worried about another person doing it and wiping out information he had on there which would have led to finding him or finding out what he was working on. I don't think he was the one to make it unreadable. See what I mean?!

Don't you think that's a bit far fetched? Why would he suspect that his computer would be at risk and he wouldn't be? If he thought he was in imminent danger, would he REALLY worry about his hard drive for a year or would he take measures to protect his own safety? Your questions make it sound like he knew something was going to happen to him, yet did nothing FOR A YEAR to get protective help.

Is it impossible for some to believe that sometimes people just LEAVE, and it does not make them bad at all? Have you ever wanted to walk away from everything? I have, and I have also heard the very credible plans of someone I was married to, but was very disillusioned with some things happening in the USA and who talked of leaving to live in a very naturally beautiful country which is easy to access from the USA, and which has a very low cost of living. Sure, he might have tried it and tired of it, but he may have loved it had he gone. When I think about Ray Gricar's disappearance, my years of conversation with my ex come to mind, because his outline of starting a new life in Central America convinced me that those with power and connections do have the ability to leave and stay gone without a trace.
He was quite a bit older than me, had a background very similar to Mr. Gricar's ( a lifetime spent in government and close to retirement) and with resources to have done everything he planned. He remarried in the midst of his mid-life crisis instead, LOL, but SOME men with extremely high IQs and a love for adventure ( buried or expressed) do have a sort of delayed mid-life wake up call and take the road less traveled.

If Ray Gricar chose this route, I think we need to give him credit for following his own drummer's beat. Had he severed ties with Patty F. in any other way, he would have hurt her just as much, because gone is gone.
He had no strong ties to anyone else. His relationship with his daughter was tenuous for many years at best, from what I have read elsewhere, and she is also an adult capable of making her own way in this world.

Part of the criticisms which have been linked here have to do with " not enough investigation". Perhaps those who need to know, do know. Perhaps their greatest charge is to keep Mr. Gricar's confidence.
I do not know, none of us know, but this latest revelation about the HD, if credible, lends quite a lot to a walkaway, IMO. So be it. It's his life, not mine.
IMO, because there is no sign of foul play, because there was no faked suicide note, because there was no evidence that he was targeted for a hit, then he broke no laws in leaving, if he did in fact, voluntarily walk off.

JMO, and with respect for all. Mostly, I hope that Ray Gricar is alive and OK. My position is that until we have EVIDENCE to the contrary, I choose to believe that he is.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

Don't you think that's a bit far fetched? No. I don't think it is far fetched or I would not have proposed it.

Why would he suspect that his computer would be at risk and he wouldn't be? No one can say if he felt he was at risk or not. He didn't discuss things of that nature with others or so it is my understanding of things I have read about Ray.

If he thought he was in imminent danger, would he REALLY worry about his hard drive for a year or would he take measures to protect his own safety? If it was playing in the back of his mind, he may not have realized it truly could happen. Perhaps it involved people he trusted (ie. co-workers) Your questions make it sound like he knew something was going to happen to him, yet did nothing FOR A YEAR to get protective help.

Is it impossible for some to believe that sometimes people just LEAVE, and it does not make them bad at all? Yes!!!!! It is impossible for me to find them anything except a bad person for up and walking away leaving behind people to worry, wonder, and forever feel such loss like a death. I abhor those people!!!! I don't care how you slice it. It makes them horrible people for putting others through that kind of avoidable pain.

Have you ever wanted to walk away from everything? While I believe everyone may have those thoughts when life overwhelms them...the fact is that most of us won't act on it. Only cowards do.


Part of the criticisms which have been linked here have to do with " not enough investigation".Perhaps those who need to know, do know. Perhaps their greatest charge is to keep Mr. Gricar's confidence. I do believe there was not enough investigation into this case. I disagree with the notion people know anything and are not talking...unless it was in their own best interest and they are part of the plan to get rid of Ray.


JMO, and with respect for all. Mostly, I hope that Ray Gricar is alive and OK. My position is that until we have EVIDENCE to the contrary, I choose to believe that he is.

You can believe what you want. I don't believe he is...in spite of the lack of evidence either way. And if he isn't alive...someone got away with murder which disturbs me more than people writing him off as some nutjob that walked away knowingly. I won't believe it until they can prove it to me. I respect Ray far more than that. (Don't forget Steve F. and what people said about him. I believe they found his body and his plane...but we will have to wait on forensic tests to verify.)

 

[SeekingJana]

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/1402467/posts

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05120/496817-156.stm

http://www.yardbird.com/midnight_ride_another_missing_PA_prosecutor_2.htm
(Note- this man tries to connect Luna's murder to Gricar's disappearance. I discount the two as being related at all. What is of interest in his writings are what the POLICE CHIEF has to say about Gricar's notebook PC, and also the photographs of the places Ray went and where his car was found. I had never seen these before).

Sometimes, it is good to go back and see what was said and what impressions were strong at the time Mr. Gricar disappeared, back in 2005.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

You can believe what you want. I don't believe he is...in spite of the lack of evidence either way. And if he isn't alive...someone got away with murder which disturbs me more than people writing him off as some nutjob that walked away knowingly. I won't believe it until they can prove it to me. I respect Ray far more than that. (Don't forget Steve F. and what people said about him. I believe they found his body and his plane...but we will have to wait on forensic tests to verify.)

I'm not sure if Mr. Facett's (sp) were ever found, only the plane.

No one that I know of thinks that Mr. Gricar would be "nutjob" if he did walkaway. "Genius" is the word used. In some cases of walkaway, the people are found and are quite sane.

The only thing seriously suggested has been that Mr. Gricar may have suffered from depression, but that ties more into suicide.

There is some circumstantial evidence that points to walkaway. It is basically demeanor and motivation:

1. Mr. Gricar did discuss other walkaway cases (note the plural) that had either no connection, or tangential connection, with a close friend, sometimes long after the fact.

2. He did speak to friends about getting the data off of his laptop, and did so well before he was scheduled to return the laptop. Lo and behold, the data on the laptop is destroyed.

There are more general things, e.g. putting the Mini in his girlfriend's name, though he was the principle driver, having no loose ends financially.

None of those things are conclusive, but they do point that way. I give walkaway as being 46% likely, with murder being 44% likely. The key is, if Mr. Gricar walked away, there probably is evidence, a paper trail or someone who helped him get out of Lewisburg.

SeekingJana, thanks, but the good things that I have is a very good memory, an occasional ability to connect some dots, know how to Google, and some of the people around the case will talk with me occasionally. It's no secret Mr. Bosak and I communicate; he knows this case forward and backward.

 

[Airplane]

This is all so interesting. I remember being interested in Ray Gricar's disappearance in the days and weeks immediately following his disappearance, but this had piqued my interest all over again. Thanks, guys!!

As for Steve Fossett, they found his plane and some human bones. I would just about bet those bones are his and that he died either in that crash or a minute or two before it.