PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #6

[J. J. in Phila]

I never called Lara emotionally needy, you just did. "Just the kind she made normally" do you have a link and does it also support how long they talked? Im just trying to keep to the facts and leave out things you have added in that are not a fact. So lets try during this debate to keep things factual. People are reading this and basing opinions on things presented that are opinions of yours, that are not factual. Could you show me where Lara said" just the kind she made normally." Words are tricky and can be taken out of context, to mean what someone wants it to mean.

There are three, relating to the call:

i]Gricar said she last talked to her father on April 14, 2005, when she was a student at the University of Washington. She said she called “to say hello and tell him I love him.” At the time, she was engaged and said her father knew her fiance well.[/i]

http://z10.invisionfree.com/usedtobedoe/index.php?showtopic=2226&st=40

I was asked how often I spoke with my dad and communicated with him. We spoke on average three times a week.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1101/26/ng.02.html

His daughter, who lives near Seattle, talked to her father for the last time on the phone on April 14, 2005. She said the conversation was normal.


Read more: Former Centre County prosecutor missing since '05 declared dead - Pittsburgh Tribune-Review http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/s_748398.html#ixzz1cWYHghEe

It sure looks like she stated it under oath.

You certainly implied that LG was emotionally needy, insisting that she had to call and have long detailed conversations about her life three times a week from 200+ miles away for at least 7 years.

 

[cloudbuster05]

The only thing I have implied is the need for facts when you present something as a fact when you know it is not. This case is complicated enough.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

It makes no sense, in human terms, to offer up the point that because RG didn't live in the same house or same city with his adult daughter, he would cut off regular contact (3 times a week, according to LG, nearly every other day) forever in order to pull off what sounds like a narcissistic prank. It makes no sense in human terms to argue that a man who was retiring therefore held no value to his time left on the job, his professional obligations, his reputation. That is, "I'm retiring anyway, so my life's work doesn't matter." We only have to read the obituary page or hear a eulogy to know that most humans care very much about what their lives added up to. One of the last things my father said before he died was he thought he had made a difference to his family and community.

Then there's the contridictions here: On the one hand, if a daughter keeps in contact on a regular basis, she is "emotionally needy." On the other, the father and daughter aren't in each other's
lives so why shouldn't RG just decide never to see his daughter or speak to her again. This is torturing logic past the breaking point.

The walkaway solution to this mystery requires us to disregard the totality of RG's life up to that
point, as described by many who were close to him and as observed by people who knew him
professionally. Is it possible that for years the life he led was a lie? Yes. Is it the most likely answer to this mystery? No. The only "motives" for a walkaway that make sense to me are some kind of mental disturbance or depression or a spectacular narcissism, which renders the feelings of LG or anyone else moot. And of course, there is the question if he was in fact in Lewisburg, how did he leave? We don't know how he left, which suggests the involvement of another person or persons in the disappearance, making it far more likely that RG was the victim of foul play. After all, an accomplice to the disappearance risks spoiling the illusion; he could never be sure the person wouldn't talk to LE or RG's family. Even the purchase of a cheap getaway car would have
involved other people and of course breaking the law as ID has to be shown for registration, sales tax, etc., so the process would have to be circumvented or fake ID shown. And there would be no way he could be sure that after the fact, a seller wouldn't say, "Hey, I sold that guy a beater car last week." So either this guy's whole life was a lie (he was not a devoted father or true public servant or committed to the law but rather a pretty selfish guy who. ould turn his back on everyone) or he is dead, most likely by murder as it is hard to commit suicide and hide your own body, and often the point of suicide is a statement to those left behind.

 

[CJMAJORGIRL24]

Mr. Gricar would not be the first man to be unhappy with his life, and then decide to make a change when his friends and colleagues are least expecting it. It may not make sense to us, but it makes sense to the person who does it. They don't want to deal with any complications -- emotional or otherwise. People have been known to change their identities -- get new ss#'s, etc. It can be done. What would his motive be? That he's done with his career, relationship, life as he had been living it, and willing to walk away to something different -- new area, new people. It does happen, it just doesn't make the headlines like this case. Just wondering -- did his daugther need money for anything? Maybe Mr. Gricar felt she needed the money from the life insurance policy for something? Doubt it. Also, can we really be 100% sure his daughter has never heard from him? Who searches in advance about how to erase one's hard drive -- someone who has stuff on it they don't want anyone to see -- maybe stuff like contacts, account transactions -- how do you know those kinds of things weren't on that computer? Why drive so far out - just to dump it in the river? He may have met his ride there, dumped the drive and split. Done. A decision like this isn't impulsive -- it's something that's thought about for a long time --- planned in detail --- and then executed in a way that will draw the least amount of attention, at least initially. Mr. Gricar is a lawyer, he knows how to tie up loose ends and cover his tracks.

????

How are we sure that Mr. Gricar made those searches on his computer? How are we sure that he threw the hard drive into the river? How are we sure that he really went missing on April 15th? Who was the last person to see this man alive, besides his girlfriend?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

How are we sure that Mr. Gricar made those searches on his computer? How are we sure that he threw the hard drive into the river? How are we sure that he really went missing on April 15th? Who was the last person to see this man alive, besides his girlfriend?

The police said RFG did the searches; I'm guessing, but there could of been from a time while he was alone in the house.

The river, we cannot say for sure. We do have witnesses that put him in about 100 yards of where the drive was found. I think he did toss the drive. I'm not so sure about the laptop.

At least 9 other people saw RFG alive in or on the way to Lewisburg on 4/15, that have been reported.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

It makes no sense, in human terms, to offer up the point that because RG didn't live in the same house or same city with his adult daughter, he would cut off regular contact (3 times a week, according to LG, nearly every other day) forever in order to pull off what sounds like a narcissistic prank.

Who said it was a "prank." As pointed out, there could be multiple motivations, including, both safety and financial reasons to do it. Just because you think it is a "prank" does not mean RFG would regard it as such.

It makes no sense in human terms to argue that a man who was retiring therefore held no value to his time left on the job, his professional obligations, his reputation. That is, "I'm retiring anyway, so my life's work doesn't matter." We only have to read the obituary page or hear a eulogy to know that most humans care very much about what their lives added up to. One of the last things my father said before he died was he thought he had made a difference to his family and community.

Some people do, while others don't even want an obituary. My professional reputation for my former job has zero meaning. So was RFG's reputation. He wasn't going to run for anything and he wasn't going to practice law. That was part of his long term plan.

Then there's the contridictions here: On the one hand, if a daughter keeps in contact on a regular basis, she is "emotionally needy."

No, she is emotionally needy if she has to call her father three times a week and give his the details of her day to day life, in a city 2,000+ miles away. LG wasn't emotionally needy, as you and a couple posters have implied. She is an independent, mature, adult, who loved her father, but didn't have to go running back to him 3 times a week.

On the other, the father and daughter aren't in each other's
lives so why shouldn't RG just decide never to see his daughter or speak to her again. This is torturing logic past the breaking point.

Again, unless he wants his daughter to commit perjury for him, it makes sense. The story is as old as Sir Thomas Moore.

The walkaway solution to this mystery requires us to disregard the totality of RG's life up to that
point, as described by many who were close to him and as observed by people who knew him
professionally.

They think he's alive, including his closest friend. I wish I could be so sure.

Is it possible that for years the life he led was a lie? Yes. Is it the most likely answer to this mystery? No.

Now, why would be "a lie?" If RFG did walk away, he gave no indication it was anything else.

The only "motives" for a walkaway that make sense to me are some kind of mental disturbance or depression or a spectacular narcissism, which renders the feelings of LG or anyone else moot.

You don't have to "like" them, but they all make sense. Safety, money, personal achievement.

And of course, there is the question if he was in fact in Lewisburg, how did he leave?

That is the key question, and it has been since 2006. How did RFG get out of Lewisburg? We have motive. We have, certainly for walkaway, opportunity. We don't have means, but other the bus or a car rental, under his name, nothing has been released.

We don't know how he left, which suggests the involvement of another person or persons in the disappearance, making it far more likely that RG was the victim of foul play. After all, an accomplice to the disappearance risks spoiling the illusion; he could never be sure the person wouldn't talk to LE or RG's family. Even the purchase of a cheap getaway car would have
involved other people and of course breaking the law as ID has to be shown for registration, sales tax, etc., so the process would have to be circumvented or fake ID shown.

Yes and no. A helper could have purchased the car (with RFG's money)and let him drive away in it. It is not illegal to borrow a car with permission. It probably is not illegal to use a different name, unless there is an attempt to defraud.

And there would be no way he could be sure that after the fact, a seller wouldn't say, "Hey, I sold that guy a beater car last week." So either this guy's whole life was a lie (he was not a devoted father or true public servant or committed to the law but rather a pretty selfish guy who.

Actually, no. I do love your "whole life is a lie," angle. The key is, RFG didn't lie as such. He just didn't tell anyone what he was doing. Legally, he does not have to. He certainly, morally, would never need to give you (or me) an explanation.

RFG, if he did walk, could have made it look like suicide; he could have left a note. He could have left some blood in the car, just by pricking his finger, or broken his cell phone or sun glasses, just to make it look like a struggle. He did none of those things. He just didn't tell anyone what he was doing. Legally and morally, he doesn't have to.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

How are we sure that he threw the hard drive into the river?

Here are some photos of the Lewisburg site: https://picasaweb.google.com/LookingforRay The description should explain everything, but if you want to ask a question, go ahead.

 

[ThePhantom]

I've gotten the impression that Mr. Gricar is a reserved, private, "keep your cards close to the chest" kind of man. There a lot of people who can easily compartmentalize their lives. It's not a stretch at all to conceive that Ray may have kept possible thoughts of discontent and a need for radical change to himself. His daughter lived so far away. At any time, he could have chosen to relocate to be near her if he so desired. She had her own life, he had his. The fact that he loves her would not necessarily cancel the fact that he wanted out of Bellefonte and life as he knew it. It's not necessarily that he doesn't have feelings; it could be that he's able to separate them, much the way men who have affairs are able to separate their activities with their wife verses their mistress. Many people lead double lives because they are too afraid to make a change -- instead they keep secrets, some of which are never known by the significant others in their lives. What secrets did Mr. Gricar keep? He did not seem to wear his feelings on his sleeve, nor seem to be the type of person to share his thoughts and feelings with others. Did he have a best friend other than Patty? Did he socialize with a certain group? What were his hobbies? Was he a loner or an extrovert? Apparently he seemed "down" prior to his disappearance. Perhaps waiting until retirement to make a change seemed too far away. So close, yet so far. If he had alternate financial resources, and this is a big "if," the SS money wouldn't matter. Health insurance is a question, but then, he could have assumed a new identity and perhaps be able to obtain benefits that way. Or he could be living in Canada or perhaps even England. People are not always as they seem. A person could seem perfectly happy today, and the next day shock their loved ones by committing suicide. A husband seems to "suddenly" leave his wife, only for her to learn that he had been having an affair for years. Gay men have been known to come out of the closet after having been married for years. Some people have secrets. It's not like he is a Dad who left small children behind, or a husband who deserted his wife leaving her with nothing. He knew Patty would be fine, and he knew his daughter would be fine. There's a verse from a Tracy Chapman song that comes to mind:

You got a fast car
But is it fast enough so we can fly away
We gotta make a decision
We leave tonight or live and die this way

People sometimes do radical things to change their lives, things that don't make sense to anyone else. Erick Wales did it -- he tried to make it look like he was either robbed or committed suicide it seems. He might have pulled it off if someone hadn't called in to say that Erick was okay.

Just stuff to think about.

Mr. G., if you're reading this, I hope you're okay and enjoying life. Maybe leave us a clue sometime and let your loved ones at least know you're out there somewhere.........

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I'm just taking parts of this.

I've gotten the impression that Mr. Gricar is a reserved, private, "keep your cards close to the chest" kind of man.

Absolutely. The then president Judge of the county described him as "A hard guy to know." His first assistant DA, who was there prior to RFG being elected, basically said that he never knew anything about his private life.

At any time, he could have chosen to relocate to be near her if he so desired. She had her own life, he had his. The fact that he loves her would not necessarily cancel the fact that he wanted out of Bellefonte and life as he knew it.

RFG's daughter was an adult, completed her bachelor's degree, and was working on her masters at the time he disappeared. She was engaged, and was living on the West Coast since at least 1998. RFG divorced his mother in 1990 or 1992 and he was not the custodial parent.

Did he have a best friend other than Patty?

Steve Sloane (SS), an ADA from 1992. They were both personal and work friends.

Did he socialize with a certain group?

SS and one other friend, Ed Walker.

What were his hobbies?

Photography, toys from his childhood, anything Cleveland. He was an Indian's fan.

Was he a loner or an extrovert?

Loner.

Mr. G., if you're reading this, I hope you're okay and enjoying life. Maybe leave us a clue sometime and let your loved ones at least know you're out there somewhere.........

Agreed, but if he would come forward, LG would have to give the estate back. As long as he left on his own, I can live with that.

 

[ThePhantom]

Just pondering -- what would be the motivation for Mr. Gricar's daughter to come forward if her Father did somehow let her know he's alive -- perhaps she would keep that to herself ?

 

[cloudbuster05]

Just pondering -- what would be the motivation for Mr. Gricar's daughter to come forward if her Father did somehow let her know he's alive -- perhaps she would keep that to herself ?

Lara would be breaking the law if she kept that to herself. Lara has said repeatedly that she believes her father is dead. She recently testified to that.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

Let me make this point absolutely crystal clear. I DO NOT believe an adult daughter or son who calls a parent every day is "needy." I DO NOT believe that age or distance has to render the relationship between an adult son or daughter and a parent distant, or to weaken the bonds of love and affection. There is a wide range of what constitutes "normal" in familial relationships. It may well be that in RG's case, the physical distance between father and daughter because of divorce established a pattern of telephone contact and planned visits that both found significant and that nurtured their family bond. In any case, I have read nothing that suggests that the level of involvement was anything but loving and healthy. Again, we know that RG had told staff members that LG's calls were always to be put through immediately. We know how LG and her mother characterize the relationship between father and daughter, as well as the mother's estimation that RG is (was) a very good father; I think the ex-wife's statement in this regard (linked above by another poster) is very believable and compelling. No one who knew RG well has
contradicted these points.

It is not abnormal for parents and adult offspring to have close relationships, in spite of physical distance, and it is not normal for adult offspring to lose interest in their parents or vice versa because the offspring live in different cities or states, go to grad school, have families and job or,
for that matter, because parents move to Florida or elsewhere on retirement. It's not 1892. We don't have to travel over the Rockies by wagon train. There are phones, trains, planes, etc. By this logic, parents of military personnel in Iraq would no longer be "involved in their children's lives." It's not only normal, it's typical for kids to grow up, have their own lives, and STILL stay in contact (whatever works for them) with their parents, who do not, normally and typically, see that normal and typical life progression as an excuse to just disappear. That's my position. That doesn't mean RG was the father he has been represented to be, but it will take evidence from someone with first-hand knowledge to convince me that he wasn't.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Just pondering -- what would be the motivation for Mr. Gricar's daughter to come forward if her Father did somehow let her know he's alive -- perhaps she would keep that to herself ?

The motivation to come forward, if she knew about it before testifying in court would have been not committing perjury and getting caught. Perjury is a jailable offense and might expose her to civil penalties. According to her attorney, if RFG would turn up, all the heirs would have to give the money back. That is why I do not believe there was any contact.

Contact after the declaration of death would work, provided that no one catches it. If RFG would show up at her front door, and be photographed, at the very least, LG would have to return the entire estate.

I said in a blog:

. So, if reality coincides with legality, and Mr. Gricar is dead, the heirs he wished to inherit will inherit. If Mr. Gricar is alive, by not coming forward, he has wanted his heirs to get his money. Either way, by declaring Mr. Gricar dead, his wishes are being respected. I can live with that.

If there would be solid evidence he's alive now, there would be problems.

If we get solid evidence that RFG was not murdered, I won't be looking for him. The only reason I am still doing this is that there is still a real possibility that he was murdered.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Let me make this point absolutely crystal clear. I DO NOT believe an adult daughter or son who calls a parent every day is "needy." I DO NOT believe that age or distance has to render the relationship between an adult son or daughter and a parent distant, or to weaken the bonds of love and affection. There is a wide range of what constitutes "normal" in familial relationships. It may well be that in RG's case, the physical distance between father and daughter because of divorce established a pattern of telephone contact and planned visits that both found significant and that nurtured their family bond. In any case, I have read nothing that suggests that the level of involvement was anything but loving and healthy.

You have certainly implied that she was something other than an adult, referring to her as a "child." I would call it strange if an adult had to call mommy or daddy 2-3 times a weeks and gave them all the details of their life. I'd find it strange if they had that kind of relationship while 2000+ miles apart after being apart seven years.

That was not LG's relationship with RFG.

Again, we know that RG had told staff members that LG's calls were always to be put through immediately. We know how LG and her mother characterize the relationship between father and daughter, as well as the mother's estimation that RG is (was) a very good father; I think the ex-wife's statement in this regard (linked above by another poster) is very believable and compelling. No one who knew RG well has
contradicted these points.

The is a difference between being a good loving father and being "close."

It's not only normal, it's typical for kids to grow up, have their own lives, and STILL stay in contact (whatever works for them) with their parents, who do not, normally and typically, see that normal and typical life progression as an excuse to just disappear. That's my position. That doesn't mean RG was the father he has been represented to be, but it will take evidence from someone with first-hand knowledge to convince me that he wasn't.

Again, there is a difference between staying in contact, and frankly loving each other, and being close. Don't equate the two.

What I'm "representing" RFG as is a father who, no matter what the outcome, provided for his daughter, loved her, but realized that she was an independent adult, with her own life, 2000+ miles away.

 

[cloudbuster05]

JJ, PGHgirl already covered all this so why the rant? She explained it clearly, so no need to rehash what she already said and she said it well. Please move on to how Ray got out of his car and managed to get far away. After more than 6 years LE never managed to find that even after checking out buses and taxi's. airports ect, but I know you will be able to tell us how.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

JJ, PGHgirl already covered all this so why the rant? She explained it clearly, so no need to rehash what she already said and she said it well. Please move on to how Ray got out of his car and managed to get far away. After more than 6 years LE never managed to find that even after checking out buses and taxi's. airports ect, but I know you will be able to tell us how.

CB, LE has publicly indicated that they checked one or two things. One was car rentals on RFG charge cards. Possibly they checked buses.

LE has never indicated that they checked:

1. Car purchases.

2. Where people who were loyal to RFG were that day.

the lady from Chatham raises a very good point in regard to both walkaway and murder. RFG was in Lewisburg on 4/15/05 in or around the SoS. He was not there at 6:30-7:00 PM on 4/16.

How did he get out of that area? Figure that out, or eliminate some possibilities, and we might see this mystery solved.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

I think I have been abundantly clear that I used the word "child" to refer to "offspring." I never implied or intended to imply that LG was immature or needy. One definition of "child" is "a son or daughter." While I acknowledge the polysemous nature ofnthe word "child," and the potential for readers to interpret my use of the term as meaning "immature," I have clarified my statement more than once; let's be done with it.

Who is the lady from Chatham?

 

[ThePhantom]

I think it would be very easy for Mr. Gricar to have boarded a bus in Lewisburg, possibly a Susquehanna Trailways bus, and headed to wherever. With a hat on or a little something to alter his appearance, he could have pulled it off. It's a very real possibility no one would have paid attention.

Back in May of 2000, Joe Morse, a college student at Georgia Tech seemed to have done it. He was supposed to fly home to Ohio, but instead, turned up missing. For four years the police, his parents, and the FBI searched for him. Finally he was identified as being a "john doe" who had been laying in a morgue in Miami, FL. Apparently he had found a way to get away from the campus and onto some kind of transportation with no one noticing or remembering him. How did he travel the 700 mile distance? No one knows for sure. Nicholas Francisco did it too, til detectives caught up with him. He had a new identity and was living in another state. But I think Mr. Gricar is much smarter than Nick was -- probably a lot more methodical, cagey, precise, prepared...

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I think I have been abundantly clear that I used the word "child" to refer to "offspring." I never implied or intended to imply that LG was immature or needy. One definition of "child" is "a son or daughter." While I acknowledge the polysemous nature ofnthe word "child," and the potential for readers to interpret my use of the term as meaning "immature," I have clarified my statement more than once; let's be done with it.

It was not clear to me.

The connotation of "child" is of a young, dependent person. In many cases, certainly in my neighborhood, to refer to an adult, especially one in her mid-20's, and that is well educated, would be fighting words. It would be regarded as insulting.

I'll give you another example. LG was adopted as a baby by RFG and BG. When it is relevant, I mention it, like in his biography. I don't refer to LG as "RFG's adopted daughter." That is accurate, but it implies that maybe she really isn't part of the family, so I don't say it unless it's really relevant, because their relationship was one of father and daughter.

Who is the lady from Chatham?

You are! William Pitt was Earl of Chatham and Chatham can be a poetic name for Pittsburgh, like Gotham is for NYC.

I'm basically trying to imply that you are intelligent, capable individual and not a trifling little girl. I thought your question was quite good, and I wish I had an answer.

(If I keep on being this complimentary, I'll lose my curmudgeon status.)

Phantom, I can cite several cases of someone who walked away from his life. It is certainly possible and RFG was certainly smart enough to do it. I'm looking for evidence of if he did walk away or if it was something else. I'm still not convinced that this was not murder (see the good question cited above).

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Here is the current bus schedule. http://www.susquehannabus.com/schedule-lockhaven-williamsport-nyc.asp

The last sighting of RFG on 4/15 are in the area of the SoS between 5:00-5:30 PM. Currently, the buses that leave go to Williamsport and Lock Haven, or almost back to Bellefonte. There are 3 witnesses, at least, that put RFG in Lewisburg (same general location), at 11:30 AM-Noon on 4/16/05.

There are only two buses that leave after that time, and I'd have wanted to talk to the drivers; you can pay on boarding in cash.

I know of no hat missing, but RFG could have easily bought one, obviously. His sunglasses, nonprescription, were missing. I would note that RFG was driving east, into the sun, on the morning of 4/15, and could have had them for that purpose. It was a sunny day.