PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #8

[JackAMW]

Around the crime or anoud the Internet or both?

Here and about

 

[SeekingJana]

Why can't WE, as a group, do something more pro-active for Ray Gricar's case?
Why can't WE put up a " www.somethingpertinentaboutRayGricar.com" website? ( That is not a workable link- only a suggestion).

Why can't WE find corporate sponsors and possibly private wealthy individuals who knew Ray, who might have been crime survivors whom he helped and who will want to give back to his cause and offer a NEW and very substantial reward? Just an ad in the local newspaper ( or a BLOG POST) might be enough to get the rich off their wallets and credit cards.
Since it seems that Lara won't do either of the above.

Why can't WE work together to contact Karen Arnold and try to get her to post with us?
Why can't WE work together to try to back track to the 14th of April? I think something important either did happen at the lake, or didn't happen which was supposed to happen. JMO.

Lastly, and this is touchy- IF LE is not going to give us any info, then why don't WE go to or email the people who knew Ray and ask the questions which have CHANGED possibly because of SANDUSKY?
This list would include Tony. Chris, and anyone who used to be in public office during the Sandusky mess in 1998 but who is not now.
SS and BB would be at the top of my list for male former colleagues, Karen Arnold first and foremost on the list of females. Others may have other people they know and would like to contact.The list of very important people also includes Patty.

AND ANOTHER THING: Patty is not some young tender babe in the woods. IF she loves Ray like she says she does, then come here and answer our questions about him being unshaven in Tallyrand park. Tell us what brand underwear he wore. Tell us about the empty package for the HD erasing software. Tell us about ANY women matching the MW's tall, pretty, dark haired description that Ray might have simply MENTIONED or that she saw a phone call from on the phone bill. Or tell a case poster in private.

We have to get closer to the sources. SOMEONE knows something and may not even be aware that they do. IMO, they are in more danger by not knowing that they have valuable info than if they post or email with someone from WS and tell their truths.

This case is not going to be solved by a bunch of tight lipped angry or resigned relatives, other loved ones, and former co-workers and friends. The police aren't asking them ANYTHING. We know that.
We can only take the information to a national level once we have it.

The FBI's logo is NOT on Ray Gricar's Missing poster by accident!!!!

Until we can institute something more pro-active than the same bunch of people sitting around talking about dumping laptops and how fast books sink, we are the lowest of the low. We are not EXTENDING OURSELVES for Ray Gricar's life, or for his memory, whichever the case may be, in any way.

I can't be a " chatterer" any longer. BTW, JJ, I HATE your term for people on the Internet who try to use evidence to make inroads into cases. If I chatter, what do you possibly think you do?

There IS strength in numbers. Who wants to help me get solid info we can take to the FBI?
Fired up and Fed UP with talk!!!
Maria

Edited to add: I am not the " den mother" of anyone here. I just think that in 6.5 years, WSers have had time to make a difference in this man's case, and except for one opinion teller on a blog, no one is doing anything at all. I'm sad. I'm really sad that he is being shoved aside. Can we come together to do the things I have suggested on this post? IF you have other suggestions such as ad space somewhere for his case, fine. If anyone wants to talk with me, PM me as always.

 

[Dewey2Me1MoThyme]

Could his investigation into Sandusky have led him somewhere / to someone, he didn't expect to go / find? A good friend? A relative? A co-worker? A loved one?
ETA: A judge? Someone inside the DA's office?

 

[SeekingJana]

Could his investigation into Sandusky have led him somewhere / to someone, he didn't expect to go / find? A good friend? A relative? A co-worker? A loved one?
ETA: A judge? Someone inside the DA's office?

Cetainly it could have. Maybe we will know soon, but I'm not counting on it. Sandusky is likely to suicide rather than face a jury of his peers. and especially before he faces his accurers ( the little boys who are now grown up). I think he is a very high suicide risk.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

The missing DA, Ray Gricar, has at least 2 nephews, possibly more, in Ohio. The ones we have seen on TV and in photos from pressers are Chris, who never speaks out, and Tony, who never really is quiet. They are the sons of the deceased brother, Roy.
It is said that there is a third " skater" type relative of Ray's as well. I know little to nothing about this person.
All I know about Chris and Tony are that they have appeared as " family spokespersons" and that neither has ever taken a pol;ygraph, although Ray's girlfriend, and his daughter, who was on the West coast at the time of his disappearance did take and are said to have passed polys.

Do you have any feeling as to whether his nephews are involved? Tony Gricar has been on almost EVERY cxrime forum which has ever existed posting under MANY different names and nicknames. He is said by Karen Arnold to have attenpted to perhaps " mislead" the Internet posters...

These are benign statements known to be true of their behavior as observed in the area of media segments, etc.
I have no personal agenda, IOW.

The third nephew was in his mid teens when RFG disappeared; they kept him out of the public eye.

I think it is unlikely that they had anything to do with RFG's disappearance.

 

[SeekingJana]

The third nephew was in his mid teens when RFG disappeared; they kept him out of the public eye.

I think it is unlikely that they had anything to do with RFG's disappearance.

With all due respect, most aspects of this case fall squarely into the " unlikely" category.

 

[SeekingJana]

http://xfinity.comcast.net/video/preview-the-case-of-the-missing-da/2176313595/fanNews/newest/

Ho hum, ho hum. Nothing we didn't already know and haven't talked TO DEATH.

Someone's got to do something. Doesn't anyone here have ANY connections in PA? If so, please read my post on the previous page. Does a DA who helped so many crime victims for so many years not deserve more than us plunking down words on an Internet forum?
Is there not anything we can get together as a group and do? Take his case to AMW, Carrington- Sund Foundation or elsewhere for a possible new reward?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Why can't WE, as a group, do something more pro-active for Ray Gricar's case?
Why can't WE put up a " www.somethingpertinentaboutRayGricar.com" website? ( That is not a workable link- only a suggestion).

Why can't WE find corporate sponsors and possibly private wealthy individuals who knew Ray, who might have been crime survivors whom he helped and who will want to give back to his cause and offer a NEW and very substantial reward? Just an ad in the local newspaper ( or a BLOG POST) might be enough to get the rich off their wallets and credit cards.
Since it seems that Lara won't do either of the above.

Basically, because a lot of people think RFG walked away and now they are looking at RFG and saying "he is the guy who did not prosecute Sandusky." That is not attracting people.

In 2009, WTAJ did an online poll on what happened to Ray Gricar. 58% said, "He ran away." The public comments on LG during the hearing to declare RFG dead were absolutely brutal. And bluntly, it didn't help that she didn't talk to the press and "appeared" only by telephone.

Why can't WE work together to contact Karen Arnold and try to get her to post with us?

Her last comments on my blog were welcoming her and agreeing with her comment.

I said: It is the district attorney’s responsibility whether or not to pursue charges.

She said: The DA may decide to institute criminal charges or not, and that is his/her decision alone.

http://www.centredaily.com/2011/12/01/3005573/where-the-buck-stopped.html#ixzz1gWKybUUL

AND ANOTHER THING: Patty is not some young tender babe in the woods. IF she loves Ray like she says she does, then come here and answer our questions about him being unshaven in Tallyrand park. Tell us what brand underwear he wore. Tell us about the empty package for the HD erasing software. Tell us about ANY women matching the MW's tall, pretty, dark haired description that Ray might have simply MENTIONED or that she saw a phone call from on the phone bill. Or tell a case poster in private.

The underwear could be important, quite seriously.

The unshaven part can be 5 O'clock shadow. We know he was at a meeting that started at 8:00 AM, so shaving would have been well before that. The park encounter was 9-10 hours later.

I can't be a " chatterer" any longer. BTW, JJ, I HATE your term for people on the Internet who try to use evidence to make inroads into cases. If I chatter, what do you possibly think you do?

Jana:

1. I am a member of the chattering class.

2. I've called the chattering class "unsung heroes" of the Gricar case, because the often kept the case in they public eye.

http://www.centredaily.com/2009/11/30/2396331/unsung-heroes-part-3-the-chattering.html

 

[SeekingJana]

So, let me get this straight?
YOU think Ray is now unpopular, possibly even in death, and that no one of substance would champion his cause ( except us on the Internet)?

I don't believe that. Look at the many posters who say " Something may have happened to him BECAUSE of Sandusky".
New posters to his case.

I think the time to do something for Ray would have ideally been 6 years ago, however, I didn't know about him then.
But now his name is before the public. Whether they LIKE Ray or not, chances are that they HATE Sandusky as much as I do.

How big of a leap is it to have some faith in your fellow man? I'm not cynical about what good people willl do to find another good man. The only person I am totally cynical towards at this point is Lara Gricar.
Even Tony and Patty have done more for Ray's case than Lara has.

 

[minazoe]

Picked up in someones car, taken away. Phone taken away at gunpoint, turned off and put in glove box because he was getting a call or he was trying to call 911
Woman left from car when two men, one driving, one with gun, possible third man for muscle, took him for a ride.

Most likely chopped up and chummed or burned to get rid of completely as someone in his position has to disappear forever with no chance of being found. He did not go willing but was forced, likely at gunpoint
Water is good for getting rid of prints but gives up the dead, in this case his whole body has to go, this means the illusion of still being alive works for the guilty, classic Organized Crime move

Being a lawyer, he thought he could talk his way out, wrong! The woman is the key

I said all this forever ago..Ray got lured and deep sixed...and possibly Sandusky and Paterno are mobbed up in some way...after all Paterno is OLD SCHOOL.

easy to see Sandusky getting his problem taken care of if it ever starts getting busy again.

He went in another car...either someone got in the car or they came over on the passenger side, Ray rolled down the window and a gun came out.

it's also possible that Ray wasn't as squakie deakie clean cut as we all think.

after all, who really knows what lurks in the hearts of men???

 

[J. J. in Phila]

So, let me get this straight?
YOU think Ray is now unpopular, possibly even in death, and that no one of substance would champion his cause ( except us on the Internet)?

I think a number of people think he walked away, and have made up their minds.

I don't believe that. Look at the many posters who say " Something may have happened to him BECAUSE of Sandusky".
New posters to his case.

And a number seeing something nefarious in RFG's decision not to prosecute Sandusky, which might have been an honest mistake.

How big of a leap is it to have some faith in your fellow man? I'm not cynical about what good people willl do to find another good man. The only person I am totally cynical towards at this point is Lara Gricar.
Even Tony and Patty have done more for Ray's case than Lara has.

I'm very cynical, largely because I read the comments of others, especially in Centre County. I have never thought that there was strong evidence of either walkaway or murder, but the public, perhaps increasingly, has said walkaway. I'm not happy about that, but I can't deny that this is how the public feels either.

 

[quixote]

I think a number of people think he walked away, and have made up their minds.

While I lean that way, I would not be surprised if he was murdered. The thought towards walkaway is, for me, due to his extreme intelligence that is reported here. It would take (I think) a notable amount of brain power to completely and successfully disappear. Mr. Gricar appears to meet that standard.

And a number seeing something nefarious in RFG's decision not to prosecute Sandusky, which might have been an honest mistake.

Inevitable due to the hot topic that Sandusky has become, and it is a heckuva juicy angle for folks to ponder. His reputation and intelligence aside, even the most brilliant people sometimes make huge mistakes.

As far as why he would go "quietly" if abducted, perhaps someone slipped him something in a drink, or had a cloth doused in chloroform. Lots of potential things there. If this was an organized crime hit, it seems like it was handled extremely well, with careful attention to detail. If so, then somebody really wanted him removed from this earth in a big way. Undoubtedly he made his share of enemies through his work. An occupational hazard to be sure.

I'll have to try to brush up on his family's reaction (or lack thereof) towards his disappearance, as that is of interest to me. When one considers the herculean efforts of many loved ones of the disappeared, I find it interesting when one finds things on the opposite end of that scale.

 

[CJMAJORGIRL24]

CJMajor, are you taking a good solid foundation of Psych. courses? As a behavioral psychologist, I hope you and your classmates are.
In order to unravel criminal behavior, we have to understand human behavior in general.
ROy was at a VERY HIGH risk of suicide because he was Bi-Polar.
While his sons and his brother are also at a much greater risk of being bi-polar, we have no evidence that RAy had any bi-polar tendencies. Nor that ROy's sons are BP disordered. If one is, they would go near the top on my suspect list for murder. A manic person can " find" a wrong where none exists and strike out with almost super-human force. Impulse control is extremely diminished as well.( Usually, medication can stabilize moods, but user compliance is very variable over the long term).

Hi there-and its so nice to "meet" you!! I can't speak for my classmates, but I have taken the mandatory psychology courses, and am adding a "human potential" class to my schedule this spring. My honors society mentor is also a psychologist, and I feel that I am guided (or evaluated..lol) daily and very well!!

I agree about the bi-polar issues and suicide. I have been told by several people that Mr. Gricar was a very big supporter of "women" who were victims of crime. For that reason, I find it odd that Mr. Gricar would investigate Sandusky and even listen into phone conversations, and simply choose NOT to prosecute him. It just makes no sense to me. It would be nice to know if Mr. Roy Gricar was being treated for his bi-polar disorder. I would also love to know if the "nephews" suffer from the same disorder.

 

[quixote]

http://xfinity.comcast.net/video/preview-the-case-of-the-missing-da/2176313595/fanNews/newest/

Ho hum, ho hum. Nothing we didn't already know and haven't talked TO DEATH.

Someone's got to do something. Doesn't anyone here have ANY connections in PA? If so, please read my post on the previous page. Does a DA who helped so many crime victims for so many years not deserve more than us plunking down words on an Internet forum?
Is there not anything we can get together as a group and do? Take his case to AMW, Carrington- Sund Foundation or elsewhere for a possible new reward?

While I do work for the Commonwealth of PA, I don't really have any "connections," per se. I doubt the Governor or AG will be adding this to their to-do lists.

While "social media" is fraught with "cons" there are sometimes "pros." Is there any kind of "Facebook" page about Mr. Gricar and his disappearance?? Has the family ever offered a reward??

 

[J. J. in Phila]

While I do work for the Commonwealth of PA, I don't really have any "connections," per se. I doubt the Governor or AG will be adding this to their to-do lists.

While "social media" is fraught with "cons" there are sometimes "pros." Is there any kind of "Facebook" page about Mr. Gricar and his disappearance?? Has the family ever offered a reward??

I don't know of a Facebook page.

A reward was offered, of at lest $15 K, but it expired in 2006. There were some tax reasons for the expiration.

The possibly of murder is what keeps me doing this.

 

[JackAMW]

Tell me about the five o clock shadow, did he shave twice a day?
Were the dogs stalled within ten feet of Ray's car, lost scent
few ashes mean one cigarette
Someone sit in car while other came behind and opened door, said "Lets go talk" with gun to head, woman exits car. Another takes laptop HD and plant others. Very quick and gone, possible green, white or silver car as less suspious and blends in
The people at the red antique store should have seen something, ask again

 

[quixote]

There are three "pages" on Facebook, including the one below:

http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Open-a-Federal-investigation-into-the-disappearance-of-Ray-Gricar/115874005191105

It isn't very fleshed out, but I thought I'd share it just the same.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Tell me about the five o clock shadow, did he shave twice a day?

That I don't know, but his beard was not heavy in the surveillance tapes on 4/14/05. It was grainy, but it didn't look like he needed a shave.

[/quote]Were the dogs stalled within ten feet of Ray's car, lost scent
few ashes mean one cigarette[/quote]

I think it was 20 yards, not ten feet.

Someone sit in car while other came behind and opened door, said "Lets go talk" with gun to head, woman exits car. Another takes laptop HD and plant others. Very quick and gone, possible green, white or silver car as less suspious and blends in
The people at the red antique store should have seen something, ask again

How would they know what type of laptop/drive would be needed? RFG generally didn't use it out of the house, except for conferences, out of the county.

Unless RFG was incapacitated, why didn't he scream or run? Houses were close. If incapacitated, how did they get min the 20 yards?

There was canvassing of the workers at the SoS.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

There are three "pages" on Facebook, including the one below:

http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Open-a-Federal-investigation-into-the-disappearance-of-Ray-Gricar/115874005191105

It isn't very fleshed out, but I thought I'd share it just the same.

I think one is on the Disappeared show. One has zero on it. One is Wikipedia entry.

 

[quixote]

In the link sharing mood I guess, so I just went to the Google News Archive and punched in "Ray Gricar." Probably nothing that would be new or unknown, just trying to share.

http://www.google.com/search?q=Ray+Gricar&tbs=nws:1,ar:1&source=newspapers