PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #9

[J. J. in Phila]

NBC News just reported that the Fed's are looking at payments of hush money in the Sandusky case. The subpoena for documents at Penn State goes back to 1998.

 

[Bellaneph]

I found this link about "how to disappear" on another websleuths post that I thought might be appropriate here; at the very least an interesting read.


http://www.skeptictank.org/hs/vanish.htm


Also, I wonder if they have found anything in their search so far of payoffs.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I found this link about "how to disappear" on another websleuths post that I thought might be appropriate here; at the very least an interesting read.


http://www.skeptictank.org/hs/vanish.htm

I've read this; it is possible to disappear.

Also, I wonder if they have found anything in their search so far of payoffs.

There are, at least at this point, some good arguments against payoffs. I don't like dealing with motives, but even if evidence would surface, that would not, in itself, do anything except lower suicide a bit (and increase voluntary departure and foul play).

We've discussed RFG's money situation before. I've maintained that there should be more money there and that RFG was not someone who spent a lot of money. Neither of those things are consistent with getting payoffs.

 

[Bellaneph]

after reading the link on disappearing, it would seem that if you didn't want to live in the woods or live in the desert, you would need money to last you a while so that you could at least live in a place with running water. I'm thinking Ray's not the type to rough it up eating bugs in a forest or snakes in the desert, so that did get me thinking about the money.

JJ, you might know this, were Ray's checks being directly deposited into his bank account or was he cashing his checks and then putting the money into the bank? If he was cashing them, he could skim off the top and hide the money somewhere (home safe, under the mattress) and deposit the rest into the bank. If he was directly depositing the checks into the bank, there would have to be some withdrawls on a regular basis over time to accumulate the money you would need to live in hotels or whatever for a while. (since I'm under the impression there were no "large" withdrawals found leading up to the time Ray disappeared).

I don't really think this is why he "fried" his hard drive, but it's possible financial records of where that money was going - plus records of his plans to "disappear" - might have been on there and that would be (almost) a good enough reason to want to get rid of it. I still think there was something else on there that was the primary reason why he wanted to disappear in the first place, but now I'm thinking financials and links to how someone disappears may have been on there too.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

JJ, you might know this, were Ray's checks being directly deposited into his bank account or was he cashing his checks and then putting the money into the bank? If he was cashing them, he could skim off the top and hide the money somewhere (home safe, under the mattress) and deposit the rest into the bank. If he was directly depositing the checks into the bank, there would have to be some withdrawls on a regular basis over time to accumulate the money you would need to live in hotels or whatever for a while. (since I'm under the impression there were no "large" withdrawals found leading up to the time Ray disappeared).

I can't answer your question directly. I've heard that most transactions were by credit card. Over the prior 2 1/2 years $16,000 in cash could not be accounted for. That worked out to about $125 per week, which is not a lot.

A key might be his divorce. Someone recently suggested that it was settled in 2002, though filed before c. 2000. There was a liquidation of assets; the house was sold. I have been told that RFG was not penniless as a result.

Overall, the assets are quite low, considering his salary.

 

[Bellaneph]

Just reaching again, but if he was skimming 16K off the top of his checks, that could mean he was planning something about 2.5 years in advance. (around the same time he moved in with Patty?)

Yes, $125 a week isn't a lot, but it's just enough to save a decent amount in 2.5 years and not enough to be noticed by anyone or interfere with his lifestyle.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Just reaching again, but if he was skimming 16K off the top of his checks, that could mean he was planning something about 2.5 years in advance. (around the same time he moved in with Patty?)

Yes, $125 a week isn't a lot, but it's just enough to save a decent amount in 2.5 years and not enough to be noticed by anyone or interfere with his lifestyle.

I don't think it was "skimming." He, like I do, might have wanted just a little cash. Likewise, some of that was on vacations.

Sure, $16 K would be enough to buy a used car, new clothes, and maybe room and board for 6 months, living inexpensively. October or November 2005 rolls around, and there is nothing left.

 

[Cat4]

First time poster on WS but long time lurker.
After re-watching Ray's Disappeared episode today something struck me that I hadn't paid attention to before. Has there been speculation as to why he got in and out of his car several times right next to the antique store? I find that very odd. It was said that he looked to be waiting for someone. If he was not waiting for someone, what was he doing? Thank you!

 

[J. J. in Phila]

First time poster on WS but long time lurker.
After re-watching Ray's Disappeared episode today something struck me that I hadn't paid attention to before. Has there been speculation as to why he got in and out of his car several times right next to the antique store? I find that very odd. It was said that he looked to be waiting for someone. If he was not waiting for someone, what was he doing? Thank you!

It was about 75 yards from where the hard drive was tossed, so it is possible that he was doing that.

It is frankly possible that he was just enjoying the sunlight. There is nothing there except the park and the museum.

As you can see, I play Devil's Advocate a lot.

Here are some photos of the area, with captions: https://picasaweb.google.com/LookingforRay

 

[Bellaneph]

First time poster on WS but long time lurker.
After re-watching Ray's Disappeared episode today something struck me that I hadn't paid attention to before. Has there been speculation as to why he got in and out of his car several times right next to the antique store? I find that very odd. It was said that he looked to be waiting for someone. If he was not waiting for someone, what was he doing? Thank you!

I saw today's episode also and I noticed that it changed from the last time I saw it - which had also changed from the first time I saw it. I guess they keep editing it as new info comes in. There were a few different little things, but being that this was 9 hours ago, I forget what they are right now

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I saw today's episode also and I noticed that it changed from the last time I saw it - which had also changed from the first time I saw it. I guess they keep editing it as new info comes in. There were a few different little things, but being that this was 9 hours ago, I forget what they are right now

In one version, they put a quote from Tony, from 2010, saying how much he welcomed a new investigation, after the new Sandusky information. It made him appear that he was welcoming a new investigation tied to Sandusky. That obviously wasn't what he was referring to in 2010.

I didn't see what version aired today.

 

[Cat4]

I wonder whom has copies of the hard drive, if anyone. Did he take a copy with him (if walkaway)? Does the perp have a copy (if murder, etc)?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I wonder whom has copies of the hard drive, if anyone. Did he take a copy with him (if walkaway)? Does the perp have a copy (if murder, etc)?

RFG was not know to have made backups. For all we know, everything that was on the laptop was on the desktop.

 

[jamesdoe]

jj, could you pm the url of the other site. My computer crashed 1 week ago.

 

[jamesdoe]

JJ, never mind i found it.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

And, BTW, why does JKA insist on referring to Patty F as "the paramour"? Is it a hint maybe that Gricar's ex-wife regarded Patty as an illicit lover of Ray's? (I know the legal use of the term. JKA was around these people all the time. Why didn't she call Patty his girlfriend? I think she's sending a message to look at the feelings Emma had about Patty. And look for an overlapping timeline.

Might be useful to let it roll around in your head a few weeks, rather than constructing a rationale that rules it out.

Someone read this post on the divorce and was nice enough to get me the divorce papers. The papers were filed with the court in 3/01. Now, that was after, the marriage actually broke up, RFG went to his attorney, the attorney drafted the papers and then filed them; Just drafting and filing could take several weeks. So, we're talking, at the latest, 01/2001 for the marriage to #2 for ending. They may have been separated prior to that. There was no overlap.

Yes, RFG initiated the divorce.

 

[pinktoes]

JJ: JKA believes you said more. And I believe I read it independently of her tome as well. Anyhow, this is what I'm referencing (and is my belief this is why she retaliated. And this is what I mean by you "going after her")

" Reading through several subsequent JJ addenda to his "Murder" thread, I found two such references. The first, posted October 11, 2006, notes that K (killer) would 'need access to Arnold's records'. The second, posted October 12, 2006, states as follows: "K [killer] says at this point 'I'm worried about my job'. Was it Arnold that was fired at the change of administrations at the DA's office?""

from:
http://sites.google.com/site/gricard...linediscussion

 

[J. J. in Phila]

JJ: JKA believes you said more. And I believe I read it independently of her tome as well. Anyhow, this is what I'm referencing (and is my belief this is why she retaliated. And this is what I mean by you "going after her")

" Reading through several subsequent JJ addenda to his "Murder" thread, I found two such references. The first, posted October 11, 2006, notes that K (killer) would 'need access to Arnold's records'. The second, posted October 12, 2006, states as follows: "K [killer] says at this point 'I'm worried about my job'. Was it Arnold that was fired at the change of administrations at the DA's office?""

from:
http://sites.google.com/site/gricard...linediscussion

I think she misunderstood. Somebody claiming they had some sort of damaging information about her (or anyone on staff) could have contact RFG and said, "I don't want to meet you in the office because JKA (or other staff member) could see me." That is in the context of a luring, but person doing the luring would be lying to get RFG to Lewisburg.

Conversely, someone employed by the county (or Penn State, for that matter) could claim be worried about being seen in the office. That obviously would not apply to the staff, because the staff would normally be there.

It was almost impossible for anyone on staff (and that includes JKA) to come up with a plausible reason to say to RFG, "I don't want to walk the 20 feet (or however many feet) to you office. Meet me fifty miles away."

 

[pittsburghgirl]

JJ, when I read JKA's analysis of RG's disappearance and the investigation, I read the lines that pinktoes is quoting as suggesting that you were suggesting she was "k," as she would have access to her own files and was worried about her job. Your response to pinktoes doesn't clear that issue up. She was quoting from your posts on another site.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

JJ, when I read JKA's analysis of RG's disappearance and the investigation, I read the lines that pinktoes is quoting as suggesting that you were suggesting she was "k," as she would have access to her own files and was worried about her job. Your response to pinktoes doesn't clear that issue up. She was quoting from your posts on another site.

She was quoting, or possibly misquoting, two different posts, possibly on two different threads. She chose not to quote the parts where I've said, if anyone lured RFG to Lewisburg, it wouldn't have been anyone on staff at the time.