PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, former district attorney, Bellefonte, 15 Apr 2005 - #17

[minazoe]

hi guys...how soon after Ray left for Lewisburg did pf report him missing?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

hi guys...how soon after Ray left for Lewisburg did pf report him missing?

It was about 12 hours after there was last contact. RFG called the Courthouse at about 11:30 AM. PEF called the BPD at about 11:30 PM.

 

[minazoe]

thanks..JJ well that seems reasonable..what doesn't seem reasonable is where all Ray's money went. mOO

 

[SeekingJana]

J., there was a lady described as an employee at the court house who said she saw Ray's Mini Cooper with him in it in the Centre County parking lot where they both worked.

She was the Fenton lady, right?
Is this the secretary whose fingerprints are now ID'd?

Why are we just now hearing about these fingerprints?
Also, why is the ID of the person being withheld? Is this usual after they've told us for years there were no other fingerprints found anywhere on the car?
( I haven't listened to the podcast yet).

I'd have to know more about the positioning and location of the fingerprints in orientation to the car body to know if she might have been leaning against it, or maybe stumbled on her ingress or egress in her own vehicle, was maybe leaving Ray a note about something on the windshield ( that may be a southern thing, IDK), was she young or a grandmotherly type?
Was she Ray's type?

I would not be surprised if he had been dating other women while involved with Patty, actually, and if this is a small part of something like that, he was not married, and was free to do what he wanted to do. I don't think they were even engaged to be married when he disappeared.

I guess there are many reasons for touching another person's car, like bending over to get a piece of debris out of high heeled open toe pumps. Dropping a bag and stopping to pick it up, and maybe leaning against or touching the car while getting back up. Depends on the age and size of the woman, too, I think.

I can think of about 10 not-so unusual reasons.
What this also means is that the woman knows and has known that her fingerprints were ID'd on the car years ago. It must have been decided that it was a benign reason, right?
Surely would like to know if they were near the door handles.

One last thing- Patty and Ray likely were in the court house parking lot in the Mini Cooper together. It could have been a friend of Patty's stopping with a short message or a " How do you do?" IF the fingerprints were near the door or window.
We need to know where they were on the car and how long they'd been there.
I'm not liking these drip drop tidbits very much. Surely the person the fingerprints belonged to was talked to by LE about it after he disappeared? I assumed so, but maybe they waved it off as a normal variant because they parked in the same small parking lot together and worked in the same building. Idk. Too many possibilities, some entirely innocent, some possibly not.

I was mulling over the documents in the first two parts of Final Argument and saw a few things:

1. RFG had a phone charger in the car. I had postulated that RFG might have turned off the phone to save the battery. That can be ruled out now.

Now, RFG did have voicemail and could have checked his messages in Lewisburg. That would let his phone ping off a tower in Lewisburg and could have been traced. He didn't do that. He was known to check messages, even on vacation.

2. While RFG generally becomes more empty after May, there is an email address written. It is to a company in Bellefonte, T. C. Transportation. They do bulk material hauling, things like gravel and road salt. Why would RFG have their e-mail written on the November, 2005, page?

3. The fingerprints of a secretary from the DA's Office were on the Mini, on the outside. When was she at the car, and what were the circumstances?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Snipped only for brevity.

J., there was a lady described as an employee at the court house who said she saw Ray's Mini Cooper with him in it in the Centre County parking lot where they both worked.

She was the Fenton lady, right?
Is this the secretary whose fingerprints are now ID'd?

No, Fenton was a law clerk for Judge Grine, not a secretary.

I don't know why this was not released. I do not know if they checked her whereabouts on 4/15-16/05 or not or checked to see if he bought or rented a car. I would like to know what LE ruled out.

I do not know why these things were not released. I've known who RFG talked with about erasing the laptop for more than a decade. I have been uncomfortable about saying it because it hasn't been released.

I guess there are many reasons for touching another person's car, like bending over to get a piece of debris out of high heeled open toe pumps. Dropping a bag and stopping to pick it up, and maybe leaning against or touching the car while getting back up. Depends on the age and size of the woman, too, I think.

I can think of about 10 not-so unusual reasons.
.

So can I. He might have asked her to get something from the car, like a file. Maybe her car was down and he gave her a lift home. It is something that should be checked out.

 

[Daisy1980]

Wasn’t the Fenton sighting of a man appearing to be Gricar in a car other than the mini?? And on the following day?

 

[Daisy1980]

I was mulling over the documents in the first two parts of Final Argument and saw a few things:

1. RFG had a phone charger in the car. I had postulated that RFG might have turned off the phone to save the battery. That can be ruled out now.

Now, RFG did have voicemail and could have checked his messages in Lewisburg. That would let his phone ping off a tower in Lewisburg and could have been traced. He didn't do that. He was known to check messages, even on vacation.

2. While RFG generally becomes more empty after May, there is an email address written. It is to a company in Bellefonte, T. C. Transportation. They do bulk material hauling, things like gravel and road salt. Why would RFG have their e-mail written on the November, 2005, page?

3. The fingerprints of a secretary from the DA's Office were on the Mini, on the outside. When was she at the car, and what were the circumstances?

wow, thanks for all this.

was his phone traced? Do we know? If one plans to walk away why take the phone even off? Also at that point in time it was common to only turn the phone on to make a needed call. People didn’t have them on all the time, so that it was off doesn’t seem that weird to me. Speaking of what level of phone tracing was available at the time for a missing person?

Was it released where on the outside the fingerprints were? Which area of the vehicle?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Wasn’t the Fenton sighting of a man appearing to be Gricar in a car other than the mini?? And on the following day?

Fenton reported seeing RFG in another car behind the Courthouse (parking lot) on 4/1505 at about 3:00 PM. Grine saw it too but was not sure if it was 4/14 or 4/15. Fenton is on the tape on 4/15, but Gricar is not.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

wow, thanks for all this.

was his phone traced? Do we know? If one plans to walk away why take the phone even off? Also at that point in time it was common to only turn the phone on to make a needed call. People didn’t have them on all the time, so that it was off doesn’t seem that weird to me. Speaking of what level of phone tracing was available at the time for a missing person?

Was it released where on the outside the fingerprints were? Which area of the vehicle?

What do you mean traced. The last tower the signal bounced off was in Brush Valley northeast of Centre Hall.

The last time people when out without turning on their was, oh, about 45 minutes ago, when I picked some Chinese food. It is a personal preference. RFG did have voicemail.

RFG's was on the driver's side window, according to the press report. I don't know about the others.

 

[SeekingJana]

Fenton reported seeing RFG in another car behind the Courthouse (parking lot) on 4/1505 at about 3:00 PM. Grine saw it too but was not sure if it was 4/14 or 4/15. Fenton is on the tape on 4/15, but Gricar is not.

This is the possible CH sighting we've known about, and was the one I was attempting to describe earlier.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

This is the possible CH sighting we've known about, and was the one I was attempting to describe earlier.

Yes, this is the "Fenton Sighting." One possibility that I have considered is that she confused the day and saw RFG on Thursday, 4/14/05. Judge Grine, the other witness, thought that it was either Thursday or Friday.

 

[SeekingJana]

Yes, this is the "Fenton Sighting." One possibility that I have considered is that she confused the day and saw RFG on Thursday, 4/14/05. Judge Grine, the other witness, thought that it was either Thursday or Friday.

Well, not sure even hypnotherapy would help this far out. But- it would have in the beginning!!! ( trained Psychiatrist, amenable subject usually resolves something as simple as this.)

I think most people do slightly different things on Fridays than on their other work days. Make a dinner reservation or other plans for Saturday, try to clear their desks for a clean start Monday AM, maybe make a mental note to go visit mama 'n them on Sunday.
We don't do those things on Thursdays, usually, because it cuts into the fact that we have to come back to work the next day.

I don't know anything about the Fenton lady, other than at one time, there was a description of a car larger than a Mini Cooper ( easy peasy there) in a metallic silver-ish color associated with her memories. Am I right? I'm running on 2 cylinders today. Unexplained high fever, and of course I had my Moderna COVID vaccines. So if this is loopy, please forgive me. If I didn't care so much, I'd be under my quilts trying to get warm.
You know how it goes, dear J.

 

[DeDee]

I believe Mr. Gricar loved PF and his daughter. He enjoyed a quiet life since his job's duties were likely very stressful. He very much looked forward to his upcoming retirement. He'd made plans to travel.

It's highly unlikely RG would take on a new life somewhere and abandon the two most important people in his life. Why would he wish for them years of pain and deep suffering by disappearing himself? That does not reconcile with the fine man of high moral character I believe Ray to be.

The following theory may be the most plausible reason for Mr Gricar's disappearance:

"A state prison inmate had written to Buehner about his cellmate who was from Centre County. The cellmate told the inmate that he was involved in Gricar's disappearance in Lewisburg on April 15, 2005, and that Gricar had "ran afoul of a person who was in the witness protection program," Buehner said."

Gricar prosecuted the person in witness protection who then went to prison.

This theory would explain why a body was never found as the informant stated RG was left on game land. This theory, unfortunately, indicates a hit was placed on the life of the well-liked and well-respected DA.

This is my opinion that's subject to change if evidence to the contrary proves otherwise.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Snipped only for brevity.

I believe Mr. Gricar loved PF and his daughter. He enjoyed a quiet life since his job's duties were likely very stressful. He very much looked forward to his upcoming retirement. He'd made plans to travel.

I am not sure that he made any travel plans, other than the vague, "I'd like to travel."

It's highly unlikely RG would take on a new life somewhere and abandon the two most important people in his life. Why would he wish for them years of pain and deep suffering by disappearing himself? That does not reconcile with the fine man of high moral character I believe Ray to be.

In a word, "Money." They both would make a lot more if RFG "died" prior to his retirement.

The following theory may be the most plausible reason for Mr Gricar's disappearance:

"A state prison inmate had written to Buehner about his cellmate who was from Centre County. The cellmate told the inmate that he was involved in Gricar's disappearance in Lewisburg on April 15, 2005, and that Gricar had "ran afoul of a person who was in the witness protection program," Buehner said."

The guy that Buehner talked to claimed that RFG's body was hidden in "Quarryville, Bucks County," in a mine shaft. The problem is that there is no Quarryville in Bucks County. There is a Quarryville in Lancaster County, but there is no mine shaft. There is, unsurprisingly, a quarry, but it has been flooded for more than a century; nobody in 2005 could have hidden a body there. The guy Buehner talked to is not the same man as was initially reported by the Altoona Mirror.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Well, not sure even hypnotherapy would help this far out. But- it would have in the beginning!!! ( trained Psychiatrist, amenable subject usually resolves something as simple as this.)

I think most people do slightly different things on Fridays than on their other work days. Make a dinner reservation or other plans for Saturday, try to clear their desks for a clean start Monday AM, maybe make a mental note to go visit mama 'n them on Sunday.
We don't do those things on Thursdays, usually, because it cuts into the fact that we have to come back to work the next day.

I don't know anything about the Fenton lady, other than at one time, there was a description of a car larger than a Mini Cooper ( easy peasy there) in a metallic silver-ish color associated with her memories. Am I right? I'm running on 2 cylinders today. Unexplained high fever, and of course I had my Moderna COVID vaccines. So if this is loopy, please forgive me. If I didn't care so much, I'd be under my quilts trying to get warm.
You know how it goes, dear J.

Sorry you are having that reaction.

Hypnosis might not be necessary. The parking lot has a security camera. If RFG was there on Thursday, in another car, it would be seen on the tape.

 

[Trackergd]

Interesting post in the Jennifer Shadle Thread by JetBoyMusic

"State College politics, law enforcement, etc. is one of the most corrupt in the country, mostly due to PSU being here, a now-former DA who was caught breaking the law over and over again, a still-missing former DA, Ray Gricar, who first investigated Jerry Sandusky and the PSU Athletics Department, aka Joe Paterno, Tim Curly, Spanier, and the rest...Also, what a lot of people don't realize about State College, PA is that we have 4 local police departments just in State College alone, then you have multiple surrounding local police departments that sneak into town, like from Bellefonte, then you have PSU police in-between all of the local police, then you have multiple state police departments. It's a mess...Oh, I was born and raised in a tiny little town about 20 minutes away and have lived in State College since 2002, so unfortunately I've lived here my entire life...and "Happy Valley" it's not..."

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Interesting post in the Jennifer Shadle Thread by JetBoyMusic

"State College politics, law enforcement, etc. is one of the most corrupt in the country, mostly due to PSU being here, a now-former DA who was caught breaking the law over and over again, a still-missing former DA, Ray Gricar, who first investigated Jerry Sandusky and the PSU Athletics Department, aka Joe Paterno, Tim Curly, Spanier, and the rest...Also, what a lot of people don't realize about State College, PA is that we have 4 local police departments just in State College alone, then you have multiple surrounding local police departments that sneak into town, like from Bellefonte, then you have PSU police in-between all of the local police, then you have multiple state police departments. It's a mess...Oh, I was born and raised in a tiny little town about 20 minutes away and have lived in State College since 2002, so unfortunately I've lived here my entire life...and "Happy Valley" it's not..."

Actually, and unlike several PA counties, including two in which I was resident, there was no criminal activity with any of the DA's in Centre County. One was investigated, and cleared. Also, there are substantial cases of DA's turning a blind eye in PA counties to wrongdoing involving large institutions in their jurisdictions, i.e. the Catholic Church.

There are a multitude of local police departments.

 

[buckfifty]

I was mulling over the documents in the first two parts of Final Argument and saw a few things:

1. RFG had a phone charger in the car. I had postulated that RFG might have turned off the phone to save the battery. That can be ruled out now.

Now, RFG did have voicemail and could have checked his messages in Lewisburg. That would let his phone ping off a tower in Lewisburg and could have been traced. He didn't do that. He was known to check messages, even on vacation.

2. While RFG generally becomes more empty after May, there is an email address written. It is to a company in Bellefonte, T. C. Transportation. They do bulk material hauling, things like gravel and road salt. Why would RFG have their e-mail written on the November, 2005, page?

3. The fingerprints of a secretary from the DA's Office were on the Mini, on the outside. When was she at the car, and what were the circumstances?

In regards to #1 and #2, I read these as your wheels turning a bit with these new pieces of information....do you care to expand?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

In regards to #1 and #2, I read these as your wheels turning a bit with these new pieces of information....do you care to expand?

In the first case, I thought that it was possible that RFG turned off his phone to save the battery. He could check his messages every few hours and still save the battery. If he has a charger with him, that isn't the reason. So, why turn off his phone?

The only reason that I can come up with is that he didn't want someone trying to ping his phone and see where he was. There is only one group that, realistically, could find his location by pinging his phone, law enforcement. So, why doesn't RFG want LE to know where his phone is located? The could be several reasons for that.

The second just sends up a red flag. Maybe he was thinking about getting new gravel for the driveway. Of course, he doesn't have a gravel driveway, so that isn't the reason. So, why does he need this e-mail address?

 

[SeekingJana]

In the first case, I thought that it was possible that RFG turned off his phone to save the battery. He could check his messages every few hours and still save the battery. If he has a charger with him, that isn't the reason. So, why turn off his phone?

The only reason that I can come up with is that he didn't want someone trying to ping his phone and see where he was. There is only one group that, realistically, could find his location by pinging his phone, law enforcement. So, why doesn't RFG want LE to know where his phone is located? The could be several reasons for that.

The second just sends up a red flag. Maybe he was thinking about getting new gravel for the driveway. Of course, he doesn't have a gravel driveway, so that isn't the reason. So, why does he need this e-mail address?

J.
Maybe it wasn't the bulk material Ray was interested in. Maybe was someone working for the company that Ray wanted to talk with or contact again and they gave their email instead of a phone or mobile number in 2005. We didn't give out our mobile numbers that easily to men back then because most carriers were on a charge per minute or other unit of time back then. Now, it's unlimited, but not when you count in what the stupid new phone costs.

My experience is that most trucking companies have pretty secretaries. It makes the drivers happy. My parents' best friend owned a trucking company until he was quite elderly, and my childhood best friends, two of his daughters, were his receptionist and his payroll person/ troubleshooter of most office things.
Both could have been Miss America. Sharp as tacks, and as beautiful as their mother, who I was just now thinking about. She was my second mother, informally.
Also, my mother worked for a wholesale bulk grocer who was a national shipper via overland trucking, and the pretty ladies in short skirts went right out front to work. I guess my mother was way behind the scenes, as she was not young and never wore a short skirt. This was in the 70's so I wasn't that attentive.

Go back and think it through. Maybe this is the key to the MW. Many times, these types of office jobs are filled by family members due to cost efficiency. The dad is a multi-millionaire in the case of a second trucking company I knew quite a bit about.

If she was separated but not yet divorced, or maybe somewhere other than work on work time, her employer might have given her a difficult time. Hence, why no MW came forward regarding the 15th, a work Friday.

I don't want to be totally stupid, but a covered commercial truck bed would also be a way out of Lewisburg we've never discussed. The contents, if the bed contained any shipping goods, would have to be compatible with both life and comfort, of course.
Out of Lewisburg. Not necessarily out of PA, as I believe most states have weigh stations for commercial haulers at or near state lines. ( or used to- Texas is so large, I don't cross the state line, which is weird).