PA - Shane Montgomery, 21, Philadelphia, 27 Nov 2014 #5

[AlwaysOnTheCase]

So sorry! Somehow I missed the interview when you posted it.

Post away!!!... I thought it was cool because the diver was interviewed.
I think it's great when people repost videos....so, u don't have to scroll back & search.

 

[CementPond]

Taken from the book, The Case Of The Drowning Men, it says.........

"A diatom, that beautiful bountiful microscopic organism found in ever single environment on earth, creates a hard, crusty exterior casing which is virtually indestructible even to decay. Identifying the specific diatoms native to the waters the victim allegedly drowned in and then finding the presence of those diatom breeds in the tissue samples of the victims organs and in their blood makes it all the more certain that this is the place where the person ultimately died. It also proves the individual did in fact drown and was not placed in that locale after death, since, even if a pre-dead body did take water into the stomach and lungs, there is no way for the dead to circulate water (and that water's microorganisms) throughout all the rest of their systems. Only a living person-or rather a person who is dying-could achieve this, as they're drowning."

Could it be determined by the medical examiners if he was unconscious when he went in the water? Sorry if that has been explained already.
It would make drowning in 4-5 ft of water more sensible.

 

[takeittothebank]

Taken from the book, The Case Of The Drowning Men, it says.........

"A diatom, that beautiful bountiful microscopic organism found in ever single environment on earth, creates a hard, crusty exterior casing which is virtually indestructible even to decay. Identifying the specific diatoms native to the waters the victim allegedly drowned in and then finding the presence of those diatom breeds in the tissue samples of the victims organs and in their blood makes it all the more certain that this is the place where the person ultimately died. It also proves the individual did in fact drown and was not placed in that locale after death, since, even if a pre-dead body did take water into the stomach and lungs, there is no way for the dead to circulate water (and that water's microorganisms) throughout all the rest of their systems. Only a living person-or rather a person who is dying-could achieve this, as they're drowning."

Thanks for that info. But I meant more like if he hit his head [or if someone struck him] which made him unconscious and he rolled [or was pushed] in the water. Or would the cold water have woken up someone who was unconscious?

 

[CementPond]

Just realized that may not have really answered what you were asking. Sorry.

 

[takeittothebank]

Just realized that may not have really answered what you were asking. Sorry.

No worries, the info you've shared from that book has been very helpful. Let's hope the medical examiners can get the clearest picture possible about Shane's death.

 

[CementPond]

Ok, forgot about this........the book, and also this link, talked about the presence of foam in and around the mouth......take from the link provided. So maybe if there is a lack of foam they can tell he was unconscious?:

"Investigators should look carefully around the victim's head, face, and mouth for any signs of vomitus. They should make this observation first as this very transient evidence easily can wash away. Presence of vomit serves as a reliable indicator that the victim became submerged while alive.

Foam often exudes from the nose or mouth of victims of wet drownings. This froth results from a mix of mucous, air, and water during respiration. Its presence serves as an indication that the person became immersed while still breathing, although authorities do not consider it conclusive evidence that the individual drowned. Some blood resulting from the tearing of lung tissue by forceful breathing just prior to unconsciousness may exist with it. Investigators should note that decomposition can destroy the foam. (12) This froth is similar to that often found on individuals who have died from acute heart failure or a drug overdose, both of which usually result in massive pulmonary edema. (13)

Transient in nature, this frothy foam easily can wash away during recovery operations. Sometimes, it may continue to ooze from the nose and mouth for a period of time after recovery. In other cases, no visible signs of it may exist, even in confirmed drownings. The lack of a froth cone is more typical when the victim did not fight the drowning process and gasp forcibly for air when disappearing below the surface of the water (e.g., intoxicated or unconscious individuals).

Adipocere refers to a fatty wax substance that forms on bodies either submerged in water or buried in damp conditions without oxygen and air. Its presence on a corpse recovered from water indicates that the victim probably has been there for a long time. "

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Drowning+investigations.-a0143342211

Thanks for that info. But I meant more like if he hit his head [or if someone struck him] which made him unconscious and he rolled [or was pushed] in the water. Or would the cold water have woken up someone who was unconscious?

 

[AlwaysOnTheCase]

Could it be determined by the medical examiners if he was unconscious when he went in the water? Sorry if that has been explained already.
It would make drowning in 4-5 ft of water more sensible.

I am definitely not an expert in drowning. Cause I'm a fish .
Cement knows more for sure.
What I've read, but I'm not going to say it's 100 percent correct.

If an object such as a rock, keys, phone enter the water- there it will sink. There it will stay. No current on the bottom. Those keys went in -where they found. Whether it's, 10, 20, 30 feet from the wall.
Let's say for whatever reason...we say 30 feet away from the wall. If the keys were on Shane. They fell away from him 30 feet out. Because Shane didn't jump 30 feet out and loose his keys on impact.

If they are in his jeans pocket, It would be highly usual for them to come out, unless he wore baggy jeans. In a hoodie pocket, much easier to fall out- looser fitting clothing.

What is unusual is the body fills with water & drowning begins- sinks to the bottom- there it will stay until the gases bring it to the surface.
If the keys are found in the river behind the parking lot.
Shane didn't actually drown until he reached Brew Pub-
where they found him- is where he sunk.

 

[CementPond]

Little more from the book, The Case Of The Drowning Men........which I also found on this site/link:

http://killingkillers.blogspot.com/p/drowning-forensics.html

"For instance, drowning produces a thin foam in and around the victim’s mouth which usually lingers there for several days before washing away. The presence or absence of this transient substance, on the other hand, is not conclusive because drug overdoses, electrocutions and strangulations also have the same foaming effect, and because up to 20% of drownings are actually “dry drownings” where the victim took no water into their airways but died instantly, or else suffocated very quickly from a sudden throat-closing reflex. To see if this telltale foam did once exist, though, placing a hand firmly on the victim’s chest and gently compressing it should bring the substance back up once more, perhaps even with pebbles and sand in it. Alternately, when a corpse has begun to decay a darkish, foul-smelling fluid might fill the mouth instead, but this is standard to all types of deaths where putrefaction has set in and is therefore of little diagnostic value. It is the existence of a pair of over saturated lungs, ideally with debris in them, that will most strongly point to death by drowning."

 

[Gone Girl]

Great info, Cement Pond. I think the problem in these cases is how long the body has been submerged and the skill of the ME. Often, these medical evaluations offer up a myriad number of hypotheses and criteria are selected to conform to the 'likeliest' scenario. Often, family members and others are I'll equipped to argue findings. Those of us that have followed many of these water-related deaths or disappearances have our few cases that we can never seem to get past or agree with, IMHO.

BBM, should read "ill-equipped", sorry.

 

[CementPond]

Just know what I've read.

And I agree about an object sinking and staying put because of no current on the bottom. Also agree about the the keys falling out of jeans pocket being unusual.

I am definitely not an expert in drowning. Cause I'm a fish .
Cement knows more for sure.
What I've read, but I'm not going to say it's 100 percent correct.

If an object such as a rock, keys, phone enter the water- there it will sink. There it will stay. No current on the bottom. Those keys went in -where they found. Whether it's, 10, 20, 30 feet from the wall.
Let's say for whatever reason...we say 30 feet away from the wall. If the keys were on Shane. They fell away from him 30 feet out. Because Shane didn't jump 30 feet out and loose his keys on impact.

If they are in his jeans pocket, It would be highly usual for them to come out, unless he wore baggy jeans. In a hoodie pocket, much easier to fall out- looser fitting clothing.

What is unusual is the body fills with water & drowning begins- sinks to the bottom- there it will stay until the gases bring it to the surface.
If the keys are found in the river behind the parking lot.
Shane didn't actually drown until he reached Brew Pub-
where they found him- is where he sunk.

 

[Elainera]

Just checking here and found the sad news we all had more or less expected.

I'm glad the family can now mourn and start the long process of healing. At least the uncertainty is over.

Rest in Peace Shane!

 

[AlwaysOnTheCase]

What is soooo puzzling is he could stand in the water. The keys were found in 5 feet & he was found in 4 feet. Out in the center its approx. 8-10 feet in areas.
I get that people drown all the time- people drown in a bath tub.
Leaning towards he was unconscious when he entered.

 

[AlwaysOnTheCase]

Thinking the other senerio is too painful

 

[CementPond]

But to believe that, IMO, you would have to believe that he died where he was found. Because, IMO, I do not believe he went in unconscious where the keys were found and he somehow just floated down behind the brewery and just sunk/stayed there until found. And again we have to ask, if that is true (that he died/sunk behind the brewery), then how did the keys end up upstream?

What is soooo puzzling is he could stand in the water. The keys were found in 5 feet & he was found in 4 feet. Out in the center its approx. 8-10 feet in areas.
I get that people drown all the time- people drown in a bath tub.
Leaning towards he was unconscious when he entered.

 

[Elainera]

Well, I personally won't be contacting the family, nor do I imagine anyone else from here will be either. Not sure if you're insinuating that us to continuing to post our thoughts here is invading their privacy? At any rate, I believe we are free to continue here until the thread is closed. Not having been here long, I've never seen a case where a thread is closed upon discovery of a body. The Beverly Carter thread is still going strong, months later. I do continue to read the Paul Kochu case, but as in this one, little news is available and we are just speculating there too. I pray they find him alive and soon.

Threads on WS are not closed when the missing person is found. Of course we can continue to discuss the case.

 

[Midge Montana]

For those wondering if a person can drown in that shallow of a spot...
My husband served for a time as a life guard while he was in the military. He did save a woman who was drowning. He said that when he was trying to get her to the surface, she was fighting to go downward, pulling him down with her. People lose sense of direction sometimes while drowning, so just swimming up to the surface isn't as easy as you'd think in some cases. We also have to remember that the water was very cold, so muscles don't work as efficiently, and also he was fully clothed, further weighing him down and effecting his mobility. Add intoxication, which I firmly believe was present, and reaction time slows even more.
An autopsy will determine a good picture of what happened, as the above post explains, but it's not a stretch to think that he could very well have drowned in water that shallow.

 

[Gone Girl]

Thinking the other senerio is too painful

Always, I absolutely agree with you, the foul play scenario is terribly painful. However, if foul play was the cause and could be proven, with perpetrators brought to justice, than perhaps future crime could be prevented. That is the only true silver lining in prosecution, as criminal justice is of little value to those who have lost a loved one. Though I was once a prosecutor, I relied on the hope of a higher power's justice.

 

[Phila]

So sorry to see this update but I am glad the family got him home.
Sending prayers to his family and friends. God bless the divers and all who searched or sleuthed for Shane.
I am heartbroken for his parents.

 

[CementPond]

I don't question the depth of water and the possibility of someone drowning in it. We know it can and does happens. But I know where many of our thoughts are. We think, even if he did fall in, he was so close to the edge and in such shallow water you would think (or maybe it's more like, we would have hoped) he would have been able to just stand up and get out. Even if he was drunk. This may be why some of us are wondering if maybe perhaps he was unconscious when he went in. What I question more is why he wasn't found sooner. Especially being in such shallow water.

For those wondering if a person can drown in that shallow of a spot...
My husband served for a time as a life guard while he was in the military. He did save a woman who was drowning. He said that when he was trying to get her to the surface, she was fighting to go downward, pulling him down with her. People lose sense of direction sometimes while drowning, so just swimming up to the surface isn't as easy as you'd think in some cases. We also have to remember that the water was very cold, so muscles don't work as efficiently, and also he was fully clothed, further weighing him down and effecting his mobility. Add intoxication, which I firmly believe was present, and reaction time slows even more.
An autopsy will determine a good picture of what happened, as the above post explains, but it's not a stretch to think that he could very well have drowned in water that shallow.

 

[Gone Girl]

Thinking the other senerio is too painful

Always, I absolutely agree with you, the foul play scenario is terribly painful. However, if foul play was the cause and could be proven, with perpetrators brought to justice, than perhaps future crime could be prevented. That is the only true silver lining in prosecution, as criminal justice is of little value to those who have lost a loved one. Though I was once a prosecutor, I relied on the hope of a higher power's justice.