GUILTY PA - Tom, 51, Lisa, 47, & Kevin Haines, 16, murdered, Manheim Twp, 12 May 2007

[Kgram]

Maggie is 20 and just finished her 2'nd year of college and was home for the summer from what I understand. The car in driveway looks like a older model chrysler it was probably hers. So if a stranger was watching the house they would have seen the car and not known who else was in the house and most likely would not have commited the murders right? No defense wounds and Maggie was not killed? Hmmmmm any of Maggies friends not like her parents?

 

[Indigator]

I am still not satisfied, by the very limited information that we have, that it is not a stranger. Stabbings are more commonly committed by someone who knew the victim but there are always the occassional random "psychotic killer" murders. There are clues here that lead to that type of murder-no known enemies and especially the police warning the neighbors to remain vigilant and the presence of a profiler on the case. As you know, psychotic types usually leave some identifiers, could this be the case here? Certainly, the police would not reveal if there was something in the house to indicate this but would ask for help from someone else, like the FBI (which they have done). If there were indications that it is a known individual, I don't think they'd have called in help so quickly. I have a feeling that the local police realized that there was nothing to go on as far as the family goes and there may have been something that made them lean toward a serial-type killer. I am interested in learning what the police come up with regarding known enemies, romantic relationships, previous problems etc. So far, that all looks like a big zero, so we'll have to wait and see.

 

[Annie]

I keep thinking it is related to Maggie. Maybe a boyfriend or a friend who actually did it and carried the weapon away. But then I remember the Clutter murders in Kansas (In Cold Blood). The whole family was slaughtered by two men who had heard that they had a safe with a lot of money, which wasn't even true. So it can happen that total strangers do something like this for various reasons. Also in the Groene case, it was thought for a while that it was someone who knew them and it turned out to be a stranger. There are a lot of evil people out there who will kill for almost any excuse. They have no value for human life.

 

[SoccerMom]

I live in the area where these murders took place, and we aren't getting much information at all. We do have a new police chief, and maybe this is how he does business. Who knows? It's freaky to think of this happening here.
But all that I can tell you is that the general consensus of this area is that we are looking for a juvenile. Someone that Kevin went to MTHS with, someone that wasn't "supposed" to commit a murder like this. Someone who didn't realize that Maggie was in the house.
And I've read some reports on here that Kevin might have been "antisocial," but I can assure you that he was not. My oldest child knew him through mututal friends, and I have been told that he was really a nice guy.

 

[misterallgood]

I live in the area where these murders took place, and we aren't getting much information at all. We do have a new police chief, and maybe this is how he does business. Who knows? It's freaky to think of this happening here.
But all that I can tell you is that the general consensus of this area is that we are looking for a juvenile. Someone that Kevin went to MTHS with, someone that wasn't "supposed" to commit a murder like this. Someone who didn't realize that Maggie was in the house.
And I've read some reports on here that Kevin might have been "antisocial," but I can assure you that he was not. My oldest child knew him through mututal friends, and I have been told that he was really a nice guy.

Who said anything about Kevin being antisocial? I got the opposite impression -- that he was always involved in things. High school being what it is, I doubt he was considered a "cool kid." However, if you look at that Facebook memorial, it becomes obvious -- even if Kevin was a bit of a nerd or something, he was a very well-liked and well-regarded nerd. (Incidentally, in my own household, 'nerd' has an almost universally positive connotation. My 13-year-old stepdaughter wears the "nerd" badge with great pride.)

I've even learned the name of one person who has been questioned by police, and it was a youth, an acquaintance of Kevin's, and a young man who might seem more classically "antisocial" -- withdrawn, at the very least. Incidentally, until there's an arrest, I will not tell the name or publish it.

I'm all but convinced that what soccermom wrote above was the case: "we are looking for a juvenile. Someone that Kevin went to MTHS with, someone that wasn't "supposed" to commit a murder like this. Someone who didn't realize that Maggie was in the house."

Not a stranger, but someone who knew that neighborhood pretty well, too. I believe it was someone who lived close enough to sneak over to the Haineses by bicycle or car, park either out of the way, commit the murders, and still get back home within an hour or so. That means the killer probably lives within a 3-5 mile radius of the Haines residence.

This killer had a big hole knocked out of his life at some formative point, and it's never been filled. He's developed into a sociopath, he can't empathize with others, but he's probably learned to fake it pretty well. He may have run under the radar until now by being kind of introverted, the sort of kid who doesn't reveal too much about himself, ever. He has violent fantasies, and he's slaked a need for violence with video games and movies. At one time, this person was probably pretty close to Kevin.

I'm worried that this person's own family may be in danger, frankly.

Steve/Mr. A

 

[englishleigh]

You know, guys...I hate to say this but the more I think about this I think MAGGIE herself may have done this. I don't think she should be given an automatic pass.

How is it that there are NO leads? NO clues? Nothing??

Why is it that they can't rule Maggie out? Has she been polygraphed?
If so, why can't she be ruled out? They say she is not a suspect, but also say that nothing has been ruled out.

Everything that has come out about this case and what supposedly happened has come from who? Maggie. The lone survivor.

It's only her word that tells about the mom sitting up on the side of the bed and telling her to go for help. I heard yesterday on Fox News that Maggie has said she didn't see any blood or signs of stabbing in the parents' room when she supposedly spoke to her mom, but the police have said they don't see how that was possible b/c it was a very violent crime scene.

If Maggie did this crime, she would have had plenty of time to clean up, change her clothes, do away with the weapon, etc. before going to the neighbor's....the only thing that may somewhat refute this are the ME's approximate times of death for the family.

I still believe, though, that LE is looking harder at Maggie than they are letting on.

 

[nanandjim]

You know, guys...I hate to say this but the more I think about this I think MAGGIE herself may have done this. I don't think she should be given an automatic pass...

I must say that I find it awfully coincidental that Maggie returns home on Thursday; and the murders are committed one day later (okay, one day and a few hours later). It just doesn't sit right with me. As someone mentioned, if it were a kid that Kevin knew, wouldn't he notice an extra car in the driveway? Wouldn't that give him pause? Wouldn't a lone kid be afraid to enter a house full of people and try to pick them off one by one with a knife? Wouldn't he be afraid that someone would awaken and be able to overpower him?

Of course, stranger things have happened; and it could be a kid on drugs or a kid in the neighborhood on drugs or someone not realizing that Maggie was home. But, why now? When Maggie just has been home for one day?

It could be that Maggie was very lucky to get out of the house. However, I try to put myself at the scene. If I were the mother who had just been stabbed, I think that I would have had more of a sense of urgency about me, even if I were dying. I think that I have said (even in a whisper), "Maggie, your father is dead; I've been stabbed. Get out of this house now, Maggie!!!! Call for help!!" I would not have said it in a calm voice as Maggie indicated.

I also tried to put myself in Maggie's shoes. If I had heard a commotion in my brother's room, wouldn't I instinctly open his door to see what was going on? Or would I first go to my parents' room and ask them what was going on?? If the noise was so loud and disturbing that I was afraid to go to my brother's room, I may have just fled the home entirely to call the police. I don't think that I would have stopped at my parents' room to ask what was going on. In fact, if there was what appeared to be a commotion that awoke Maggie, couldn't it have been a very loud television? Why didn't she peek in?

I know that I could very well be wrong, but I think, because of the timing of the crimes, that Maggie may be the key.

ETA: Employees at my husband's company have spent time with Tom Haines. They say that he is a really nice guy.

 

[PSUfan]

Maggie could not have done this, and not have clothing, and her body covered in blood.. injuries on her arms, face, etc.

I think MrAllgoods recent posts are right on. Although, I am not sure that the police interviewing a specific teen at MT highschool indicates that. They are doing victimology profiling, and want to talk to anybody and everybody that can give any insight into this families life. That would include interviewing many acquaintances of Kevins, and also folks who have interacted with the parents.

 

[Annie]

I wish she had said, "Maggie, ________did this to us. Go get help." Even if she did not know the person, she could have said two guys or a kid from school or some clue. Or maybe it was dark and she didn't see the person clearly, but I would think there would be some kind of light for a person to do that. This just doesn't make sense.

 

[nanandjim]

Maggie could not have done this, and not have clothing, and her body covered in blood.. injuries on her arms, face, etc.

I think MrAllgoods recent posts are right on. Although, I am not sure that the police interviewing a specific teen at MT highschool indicates that. They are doing victimology profiling, and want to talk to anybody and everybody that can give any insight into this families life. That would include interviewing many acquaintances of Kevins, and also folks who have interacted with the parents.

I really don't think Maggie personally committed the crimes. I don't think that she would have been strong enough. Could it be someone that she knows? As I said, I could be way out of left field--and usually am.

 

[poco]

I really don't think Maggie personally committed the crimes. I don't think that she would have been strong enough. Could it be someone that she knows? As I said, I could be way out of left field--and usually am.

Not that I think Maggie did or didn't do it, but what does strength have to do with stabbing someone if they are asleep????

She could have gone in and stabbed her brother while he was sleep. She could have then gone in and stabbed her father, who was also asleep, which probably woke her mother who, half asleep, was so flabbergasted at what was happening she didn't have time to react before she, too, became a victim.

In no way am I saying that this is how I think it happened - I am just saying that it is possible.

 

[SoccerMom]

Who said anything about Kevin being antisocial?
That means the killer probably lives within a 3-5 mile radius of the Haines residence.
I'm worried that this person's own family may be in danger, frankly.

Steve/Mr. A

It was on one of the first pages of this thread. It was early on in the investigation, based on the dates. I can go back and find the post in a little bit, but it wasn't a big deal. I just wanted to mention a local spin.
And Manheim Township isn't all that large, so I think 3-5 miles is a good judgement.
As an aside, Steve, you were mentioned in our local newspaper today (Lancaster Sunday News, www.lancasteronline.com) with a link to your blog! I had to smile when I read that, since I've been reading it for some time.

 

[nanandjim]

Not that I think Maggie did or didn't do it, but what does strength have to do with stabbing someone if they are asleep????

She could have gone in and stabbed her brother while he was sleep. She could have then gone in and stabbed her father, who was also asleep, which probably woke her mother who, half asleep, was so flabbergasted at what was happening she didn't have time to react before she, too, became a victim.

In no way am I saying that this is how I think it happened - I am just saying that it is possible.

Good point. However, I can't envision a young woman using a knife to kill her entire family. Plus, as others have said, wouldn't she be covered in blood? At best, I think that she would have had someone do it.

 

[MeoW333]

From the information given, i agree that that killer is most likely someone who knew one of the children, likely Kevin. I hope LE has compiscated the family computer; it sounds as if the killer was going on only vague details about the family. He probably wasn't aware of Maggie or that she was home from college. I am curious as to why a knife was the weapon of choice. A gun would be much more easier and efficient for one person against 3 (taken for granted he didn't know Maggie was home). If it were an acquantaince Kevin met over the internet he may have some details of his family and home. If he hadn't talked to this person in awhile, they would have thought Maggie still away at college. If he did play online games, i wonder if the killer was a rival of some sort of Kevin's?...
Maybe Maggie ran into her parent's room first as she was just back from college (being away from parents and all; they sounded like a caring family) a child's first instinct in a scary situation would be to go to their parents. Maggie may have seen the blood on her parents and the conditions they were in or her mother may have thought she saw it so she would tell her to "go get help" to get her daughter out of the house away from harm. If the killer was well known by the family i would think the mother would have said his/her's name.. maybe not though.
The killer could have been watching the house to see the family's "lights out pattern" and from that judged where the parents room was. Perhaps Kevin had a computer in his room with a screensaver on; and the parents didn't.
I am curious to see if the prints or dna match up to someone in the database; that could be a reason why they didn't attempt to buy a gun. More likely, they are underage and afraid of looking suspicious.
On the opposite note, i have pondered if it was someone who knew Maggie and was obsessed with her, so they left her alive, killing her family so they could turn out to be her "knight in shining armor" (sort of like the Reagon assination attempt).
My prayers to Maggie and other family.. what a terrible thing to have to go through..

 

[nanandjim]

I briefly talked to my husband about this crime. He, of course, is the voice of reason. He said that he didn't think Maggie was involved. He said that if she wanted her entire family murdered, why would she wait until she came home from school, why wouldn't she just have someone commit the crime when she was away. I must say that makes more sense. :blushing:

He also said that it would be more likely that the killer didn't think about or realize that Maggie was home from college for the summer.

So, I'm now agreeing with all those that think that it may be someone who knows Kevin, the son.

 

[txsvicki]

I'm only speculating because I've seen so many crime programs where the survivor was responsible. Maybe there were tensions over money, college expenses, and the home renovation that was about to begin.

 

[Hbgchick]

Who said anything about Kevin being antisocial? I got the opposite impression -- that he was always involved in things. High school being what it is, I doubt he was considered a "cool kid." However, if you look at that Facebook memorial, it becomes obvious -- even if Kevin was a bit of a nerd or something, he was a very well-liked and well-regarded nerd. (Incidentally, in my own household, 'nerd' has an almost universally positive connotation. My 13-year-old stepdaughter wears the "nerd" badge with great pride.)

I've even learned the name of one person who has been questioned by police, and it was a youth, an acquaintance of Kevin's, and a young man who might seem more classically "antisocial" -- withdrawn, at the very least. Incidentally, until there's an arrest, I will not tell the name or publish it.

I'm all but convinced that what soccermom wrote above was the case: "we are looking for a juvenile. Someone that Kevin went to MTHS with, someone that wasn't "supposed" to commit a murder like this. Someone who didn't realize that Maggie was in the house."

Not a stranger, but someone who knew that neighborhood pretty well, too. I believe it was someone who lived close enough to sneak over to the Haineses by bicycle or car, park either out of the way, commit the murders, and still get back home within an hour or so. That means the killer probably lives within a 3-5 mile radius of the Haines residence.

This killer had a big hole knocked out of his life at some formative point, and it's never been filled. He's developed into a sociopath, he can't empathize with others, but he's probably learned to fake it pretty well. He may have run under the radar until now by being kind of introverted, the sort of kid who doesn't reveal too much about himself, ever. He has violent fantasies, and he's slaked a need for violence with video games and movies. At one time, this person was probably pretty close to Kevin.

I'm worried that this person's own family may be in danger, frankly.

Steve/Mr. A

I am in complete agreement here.

And as to the "flavor" of the posts on some other threads - I'm afraid it's not unusual. I went to those same boards during the Borden/Ludwig fiasco and the posters were not any different then, unfortunately.

 

[englishleigh]

I briefly talked to my husband about this crime. He, of course, is the voice of reason. He said that he didn't think Maggie was involved. He said that if she wanted her entire family murdered, why would she wait until she came home from school, why wouldn't she just have someone commit the crime when she was away. I must say that makes more sense. :blushing:

Agreed, Nan!!! I didn't want to think Maggie did this, anyway.

 

[AlwaysShocked]

Well, we also know from watching all those crime shows that when there are numerous stab wounds it is usually done by someone who knew the victim very, very well.

Until I hear it announced that police have ruled out the daughter, she would be my main suspect. Not saying I would discount some messed up teenage friend of the son (Thinking of teenage neighbor Scott Dyleski who murdered attorney Daniel Horowitz's wife Pamela Vitale).

If and when police have ruled out the daughter, would they not announce that to the public? If they have not publicly announced that as of now, does that mean they are still looking at her as a possible suspect?

 

[PSUfan]

It was on one of the first pages of this thread. It was early on in the investigation, based on the dates. I can go back and find the post in a little bit, but it wasn't a big deal. I just wanted to mention a local spin.
And Manheim Township isn't all that large, so I think 3-5 miles is a good judgement.
As an aside, Steve, you were mentioned in our local newspaper today (Lancaster Sunday News, www.lancasteronline.com) with a link to your blog! I had to smile when I read that, since I've been reading it for some time.

SoccerMom, do you have the article that has the specific link to his blog? I don't get the daily paper, as I read it online, and I was unable to find the link online.

Also, Steve, I went to your blog, and maybe I was at the wrong place, but did you write about this crime on your blog? Could you provide a link? Thanks!