Partially Wrapped Gifts

[JMO8778]

I agree,rash,she could have just gotten upset that JB didn't want to dress like her,period.She could have taken that personally...and probably did when she didn't want to wear it to the White's,to match her.
I get the feeling that nobody defied Patsy...least of all not her own daughter,without consequences!

 

[coloradokares]

DeeDee249,

If the tape had shown that JAR or Grandpa Paugh (or both) were there, then all bets are off as to who killed JonBenet!



.

You can say that again ALL bets would be off at that point.

 

[Rhett]

If John was molesting JonBenet and Patsy killed her I can understand John covering up for Patsy because she would have dirt on him. But if John killed JonBenet why would Patsy help with the coverup? I understand her social standing, money, etc. but would that really be enough?

 

[UKGuy]

If John was molesting JonBenet and Patsy killed her I can understand John covering up for Patsy because she would have dirt on him. But if John killed JonBenet why would Patsy help with the coverup? I understand her social standing, money, etc. but would that really be enough?

Rhett,
Not quite, also your point is just as valid with each parent's position reversed. The forensic evidence tells us each parent participated in the crime-scene staging, so independent of whichever theory you support, this tells us the parents colluded, as did Burke.

Taking into account Patsy's relentless desire to mould JonBenet in her own image, despite JonBenet being the daughter of a millionare who could afford all manner of education to instruct her. It was to pageants and public display that was to become JonBenet's measure of education.

Again both parents colluded here, John paid and acquiesced, while Patsy re-lived her pageant days through JonBenet. Nedra Paugh is on record as stating this was the case, e.g. basically John makes the cash and we spend it!

So why should parents with socialite ambitions, successful business etc, have such moral disregard for their daughter? Some would argue because JonBenet was being abused, and that the public view of JonBenet filtered through her pageant appearances masked her private abuse, and that this was something in which both parents colluded?

So its possible Patsy with her cancer and revulsion towards Johns sexual demands looks the other way while JonBenet becomes a surrogate adult, adopting the Patsy pageant persona in public and her role in private. So did JonBenet, as she became more adept in this role feel she had superceded Patsy, or at least a misunderstanding of roles, thus leading to interpersonal conflict?

So basically they were both in it together, they both had dirt on each other, when it came to JonBenet they could be both shown to be morally deficient!


.

 

[JMO8778]

Rhett,
Not quite, also your point is just as valid with each parent's position reversed. The forensic evidence tells us each parent participated in the crime-scene staging, so independent of whichever theory you support, this tells us the parents colluded, as did Burke.

Taking into account Patsy's relentless desire to mould JonBenet in her own image, despite JonBenet being the daughter of a millionare who could afford all manner of education to instruct her. It was to pageants and public display that was to become JonBenet's measure of education.

Again both parents colluded here, John paid and acquiesced, while Patsy re-lived her pageant days through JonBenet. Nedra Paugh is on record as stating this was the case, e.g. basically John makes the cash and we spend it!

So why should parents with socialite ambitions, successful business etc, have such moral disregard for their daughter? Some would argue because JonBenet was being abused, and that the public view of JonBenet filtered through her pageant appearances masked her private abuse, and that this was something in which both parents colluded?

So its possible Patsy with her cancer and revulsion towards Johns sexual demands looks the other way while JonBenet becomes a surrogate adult, adopting the Patsy pageant persona in public and her role in private. So did JonBenet, as she became more adept in this role feel she had superceded Patsy, or at least a misunderstanding of roles, thus leading to interpersonal conflict?

I don't think a 6 yo would feel that way,however,Patsy could very well have come to a point where she was unhappy w. the image of JB that she herself created,and the status that JB was maintaining in the house,esp. if there was abuse going on.But even if not,ie-she's younger,prettier etc.,and Patsy was turning 40,had almost died of cancer,etc.It's pretty easy to see where someone like Patsy could easily feel usurped.

So basically they were both in it together, they both had dirt on each other, when it came to JonBenet they could be both shown to be morally deficient!


.

you can say that again!!!

 

[JMO8778]

If John was molesting JonBenet and Patsy killed her I can understand John covering up for Patsy because she would have dirt on him. But if John killed JonBenet why would Patsy help with the coverup? I understand her social standing, money, etc. but would that really be enough?

IMO,yes,Patsy was all about money and public image.But I would agree w. UK in that there was really more going on than just social standing and finances,in their decision to collude and cover up this crime.

 

[DeeDee249]

That pretty much says it all- that they each had dirt on the other- and whatever it was - it was bad enough that they concocted this fantastic crime scene and were protected by a web of toadies- for the past 12 years. They managed to keep the truth at bay for all this time, the secret even surviving one of them.

To me, JR seemed like he was pretty distant from his family. But if JBR felt her daddy loved her more than he loved Mommy, and she acted out with PR because of it, that could certainly set the stage for the events of Christmas night. Not to suggest that this was planned, but subconsciously there could have been a rivalry that seethed under the surface in PR, and something could have triggered her rage, like a trip wire, and in an instant- it was too late.

 

[JMO8778]

That pretty much says it all- that they each had dirt on the other- and whatever it was - it was bad enough that they concocted this fantastic crime scene and were protected by a web of toadies- for the past 12 years. They managed to keep the truth at bay for all this time, the secret even surviving one of them.

To me, JR seemed like he was pretty distant from his family. But if JBR felt her daddy loved her more than he loved Mommy, and she acted out with PR because of it, that could certainly set the stage for the events of Christmas night. Not to suggest that this was planned, but subconsciously there could have been a rivalry that seethed under the surface in PR, and something could have triggered her rage, like a trip wire, and in an instant- it was too late.

for sure,I've always felt it was more than just toilet rage or whatever initially started it...the end result came about b/c of Patsy's personal feelings,IMO.(though I don't rule out JR!)

 

[BBB167893]

Nobody can squeal because they both could bury the other, so they stick together. Whether it's love or hate, it doesn't matter. Committing murder's not like riding a bus. They can't get off at different stops. They're on a one-way express trip and the last stop is the cemetary.

 

[JMO8778]

To me it seems Patsy must have been a victim of sexual abuse growing up;remember that victims of such literally have no childhood,they're expected to be adults at a young age.
So I don't think she saw JB as a child,of sorts...and that's why she felt usurped by her.

 

[UKGuy]

To me it seems Patsy must have been a victim of sexual abuse growing up;remember that victims of such literally have no childhood,they're expected to be adults at a young age.
So I don't think she saw JB as a child,of sorts...and that's why she felt usurped by her.

JMO8778,
Was Patsy a victim, or a casualty of the pageant culture? The difference is relevant, since a profile of JonBenet's victimology might include her pageant training. The continuity is important since independently her pageant experience does not appear to differentiate her from thousands of other children, except if you contrast the motives, most children are competing to advance their life opportunity. JonBenet the daughter of a millionaire had arrived, her father could afford any finishing school on the planet, yet he chose pageants, what does that tell you?

JonBenet would not have understood that she was usurping Patsy, her role as a surrogate adult was underlined publicly via her pageants and privately via the relationships with her parents. The daughter father relationship and its accepted boundaries may have become, lets say clouded, leading to confusion on JonBenet's part, precisely because she was afforded equalities normally afforded only to Patsy?


It seems inescapable that Patsy was the victim of prior abuse, otherwise why subject her own daughter to pageantry and eventual death?

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,
Was Patsy a victim, or a casualty of the pageant culture? The difference is relevant, since a profile of JonBenet's victimology might include her pageant training. The continuity is important since independently her pageant experience does not appear to differentiate her from thousands of other children, except if you contrast the motives, most children are competing to advance their life opportunity. JonBenet the daughter of a millionaire had arrived, her father could afford any finishing school on the planet, yet he chose pageants, what does that tell you?

he seemed like he was one to go with whatever Patsy wanted,and if it got them public attention,that was even better.

JonBenet would not have understood that she was usurping Patsy, her role as a surrogate adult was underlined publicly via her pageants and privately via the relationships with her parents. The daughter father relationship and its accepted boundaries may have become, lets say clouded, leading to confusion on JonBenet's part, precisely because she was afforded equalities normally afforded only to Patsy?

sure JB wouldn't have understood it,but to Patsy,it meant nothing less than being undermined in her own home,and I don't think she was about to let anyone,not even her own daughter,do that.
If JR was having affairs,it was probably on a don't ask don't tell basis...IOW,Patsy knew something was amiss but chose to not confront him about it.IMO she seemed to be one to be content as long as she was still Queen in her own home,and she had access to the money.
So if one of them 'had to go'...her own words...it sure wasn't going to be the cash cow.

It seems inescapable that Patsy was the victim of prior abuse, otherwise why subject her own daughter to pageantry and eventual death?

not just that,PP had to have known just what a raging temper Patsy had,in helping her escape from possible life in prison or worse...she must have felt some amount of sympathy for her,this in part coming from the way they were raised?

 

[DeeDee249]

Good point about PR's sister. When there is abuse in a family, sometimes not all the children are abused. But in PR's family, I'd put my money on at least PR and her sister PP being victims. Both were pushed into pageants by Nedra, and each went on to win the Miss West Virginia title (I believe the only time a state title was won by sisters). Nedra was going to have that Miss America crown in her family, no matter what. As PR and PP grew older (and porked up) she turned her attention to her beautiful little granddaughter.
Some think PP's obesity was a reaction to her past abuse, just as JBR's soiling herself, both done to disgust and discourage the abuser, albeit subconsciously. Both are behaviors often seen in victims of abuse.

 

[JMO8778]

Good point about PR's sister. When there is abuse in a family, sometimes not all the children are abused. But in PR's family, I'd put my money on at least PR and her sister PP being victims. Both were pushed into pageants by Nedra, and each went on to win the Miss West Virginia title (I believe the only time a state title was won by sisters). Nedra was going to have that Miss America crown in her family, no matter what. As PR and PP grew older (and porked up) she turned her attention to her beautiful little granddaughter.
Some think PP's obesity was a reaction to her past abuse, just as JBR's soiling herself, both done to disgust and discourage the abuser, albeit subconsciously. Both are behaviors often seen in victims of abuse.

yes,and perhaps PP's attempting to keep all men at bay,at that.
Maybe it's just me, but I thought getting a total hyst. at such a young age was a bit odd,considering there are other methods of suppressing the cycle and thereby lowering the overall risk of ovarian cancer.

 

[comingforyou]

Children also peek in christmas gifts to see what it is. Wasn't there some partially unwrapped gifts as well. I think this has been at the hands of curious children.

 

[reintarnation]

Children also peek in christmas gifts to see what it is. Wasn't there some partially unwrapped gifts as well. I think this has been at the hands of curious children.

2 TOM HANEY: Would any of these packages be
3 opened?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably. Well, see, these
5 came up, I was at FAO Schwartz in New York when
6 JonBenet and I were up there for a trip, and I had them
7 sent back to Boulder and they wrapped them, free gift
8 wrapping.
9 So like right here it looks like I kind of
10 peeled a little back to see what was in it because I
11 couldn't remember what was in them.
12 TRIP DEMUTH: If the wrapping has been undone
13 partially, that was --
14 PATSY RAMSEY: I probably would have done
15 that to peek to see what was in there.
16 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.

 

[reintarnation]

So PR acknowledged pulling the wrapping paper back.

If she is being truthful, why did she do that? Some theorize she was searching for the size-12 underwear she had purchased for her niece, one pair of which JBR was wearing when her body was found. There are other good threads just about those panties.

If she is lying, why? There is a theory that JBR or BR were sneaking a peek as PR says in the same interview that these were packages held back for BR's birthday in January. Perhaps the two snuck down together to look at them. If that is the case, why would PR lie about she being the one to look at them? Is she trying to cover up for either of them being in the basement that night?

 

[otg]

(bbm)

So PR acknowledged pulling the wrapping paper back. If she is being truthful, why did she do that? Some theorize she was searching for the size-12 underwear she had purchased for her niece, one pair of which JBR was wearing when her body was found. There are other good threads just about those panties. If she is lying, why? There is a theory that JBR or BR were sneaking a peek as PR says in the same interview that these were packages held back for BR's birthday in January. Perhaps the two snuck down together to look at them. If that is the case, why would PR lie about she being the one to look at them? Is she trying to cover up for either of them being in the basement that night?

Distancing for Burke. That's why she would take the risk of lying. At the time she couldn't have anticipated that it would later be found that Burke had actuallly done it (probably from one of his interviews). Here's what Kolar wrote about it:

There had been another discrepancy in one of Patsy Ramsey’s law enforcement interviews that caught my attention. Investigators had noted that the wrapping paper on a pair of Christmas presents observed in the Wine Cellar at the time of the discovery of JonBenét’s body had been torn. She told the detectives that she couldn’t remember what was contained in the presents, and hence the need to tear back part of the paper.

I learned, over the course of my inquiry, that it was Burke who had actually been responsible for tearing back the paper of the presents while playing in the basement on Christmas Day, and I wondered why Patsy would claim responsibility for doing this. Patsy had also told investigators that the unwrapped box of Lego toys in the same room was being hidden for Burke’s upcoming January birthday.

I didn’t give much thought about the presence of Christmas presents in the room at the time, but would later think these played a role in some of the events that took place on Christmas day.
​

 

[reintarnation]

Below text is from PR's April 1997 interview. So those could have been Christmas gifts yet in the basement, including the panties for her niece to be delivered on their lake trip. She indicates she was still wrapping and packing while John checked on the plane. After he got home they went to FW's party. So no return trip to the plane to load up presents and suitcases?
TT: What, what do you normally store the Christmas presents say before the 25[SUP]th[/SUP].

PR: I the basement. I had them all in the basement.

TT: Okay. Because there were some extra Christmas presents. Who were they for? Do you remember?

PR: Well, I had, I had some uh, bagged up and kind of ready to go up to the lake.

TT: Okay.
PR: We were going to the lake the 26[SUP]th[/SUP].
TT: Um hum.

PR: Michigan. And I had Melinda’s and Stewart’s and John Andrew’s.
TT: Okay. Those were the presents that were down in the cellar still?
PR: Uh. There were probably were some down there.
TT: Okay.
PR: I don’t know when you mean down still.
TT: Um, on the 26th there was still some presents downstairs.

PR: When, uh, I was, if there were I don’t remember, I had them kind of. . .

TT: Kind of all over the place?
PR: . . .you know, all over, yeah. And I had, uh, I know I had a (Lego?) set down there that I had gotten for Burke’s birthday which was in January, so I. . .

TT: Okay.
PR: . . .I had that there kind of back, held back.

TT: Okay. Why don’t you walk me through the rest of the 25[SUP]th[/SUP]. What all did you guys do that day?

PR: Well, I continued to wrap some presents. I went back down to the basement on the washing machine area there and wrapped for taking the stuff to the lake . . .

TT: Okay.
PR: . . .and the kids were playing with there toys and the Colby kids were over and some other little new kids that moved in a couple of doors up uh, where the Whites had. . .
TT: Okay.

PR: . . .rented a house two doors up the hill.

TT: Towards Baseline?
PR: Towards Baseline.

TT: Um hum.

PR: Uh, south I guess that is. Um, there were just kids all around, you know, they all playing with all their stuff and . . .

TT: Quite a few kids in the house, around the house?

PR: Yeah, right.

And later:


PR: Well, we opened our presents and uh, try to have them do it slowly so it doesn’t it’s not over with in five minutes, you know, and we all opened our things and then we had breakfast and uh, I was packing, as well as wrapping gifts that day. We were, we were going to go to the lake on the 26[SUP]th[/SUP] so I was putting a few things together for that trip and um, and trying to get the presents together to take up there and then I was packing our suitcases to go, we were going to go on a Walt Disney cruise on. . .

ST: Big Red boat?
PR: Bid Red boat. On my birthday, the 29[SUP]th[/SUP]. So I was, had summer clothes, trying to get all that ready, so uh, and packing and uh, I think I colored my hair that afternoon, like with one of those quick, you know, uh. . .

ST: Everybody stayed home the whole day. No trips out on the 25[SUP]th[/SUP] prior to going to the Whites?
PR: Uh, John, I think went out to the airplane to kind of, he always kind of checks, checks it out.
ST: Prior to a flight?
PR: Yeah. So he went out there that afternoon and the kids were just in an out playing and playing with their, JonBenet was making this little jewelry things and Burke had this car that he was playing with.

ST: So you and the kids were home the whole day . . .
PR: Yes.

ST: . . .prior to going to the Whites and John returned from his short outing. . .
PR: Right.
ST: . . .uh, and that was his only trip out that day?

PR: As best I can remember. Yes.

 

[reintarnation]

TT: Okay. During the time that John was gone, was that when you were wrapping the gifts and trying to get all the suitcases packed . . .
PR: Stuff ready, right, uh huh.
TT: . . .and stuff ready to go. Okay. And you wrapped the gifts downstairs?
PR: yeah.
TT: Okay. About how many gifts were you wrapping that day to get ready to go?
PR: Oh, I don’t know. A couple of shopping bags full..
TT: Okay. This is for John Andrew and Melinda. . .
PR: And Melinda and Stewart. Melinda’s boyfriend was going to be up there too.
TT: Okay. Where were you packing the suitcases there?
PR: Um, the suitcases for the cruise I think I was packing in John Andrew’s room which is that room up on the same area as JonBenet’s room.