Partially Wrapped Gifts

[Blondieskatz]

About the "partially" wrapped gifts....I wonder if PR was in the basement that night finishing up her wrapping before the trip (maybe that's why the gifts didn't make it to the airport with JR) and something happened. She may have went down to finish up the gifts while JBR was at the table eating a night time snack (pineapple).

Of course, she couldn't tell LE anyone of this, she wouldn't have wanted to be associated with the cellar and JBR eating after they returned from the White's.

It makes you just want to scream about how LE tip toed around the Ramsey's!

 

[JMO8778]

About the "partially" wrapped gifts....I wonder if PR was in the basement that night finishing up her wrapping before the trip (maybe that's why the gifts didn't make it to the airport with JR) and something happened. She may have went down to finish up the gifts while JBR was at the table eating a night time snack (pineapple).

good thought,I've wondered that,too.

 

[SeekingJana]

Since my words were used by an IDI supporter, apparently, I feel the need to state my position on this case. It is fine for anyone to add their interpretation of the search warrant wording to my post above, but it does not mean that I share their position on the case.
I needed to make that very clear.
I have always firmly believed that one or more parents, and possibly one other adult family member were involved in this crime. One committed the crime of murder, 2 were involved in the coverup. And one was probably JBR's abuser.

I do not believe that there was any outside perpetrator of either abuse or the murder. This is not intended to demean anyone's position or beliefs. We all have our theories, but - none of us know- what happened to Jonbenet Ramsey. I wish with all my heart that I did know, and I respect those who have a different viewpoint. I wish I didn't believe her parents harmed her.. it would be much easier in terms of the pain which comes from believing that one of the people she loved most hurt her for quite some time, badly, in multiple assaults, then finally killed her.

God bless you all.. I just needed to say this. :blowkiss:

Maria

 

[Ames]

Ames,

suspicious so how do you reckon they thought they might explain away the missing size-12's? Why did they not remove the stained pants from Jonbenet's bathroom floor, if stained or soiled clothing was suspicious?


like the urine-stained size-12's and the urine-stained longjohns?

.

Urine that was released after her death. That wouldn't prove that she had toileting issues....that contributed to her death.

 

[DeeDee249]

About the "partially" wrapped gifts....I wonder if PR was in the basement that night finishing up her wrapping before the trip (maybe that's why the gifts didn't make it to the airport with JR) and something happened. She may have went down to finish up the gifts while JBR was at the table eating a night time snack (pineapple).

Of course, she couldn't tell LE anyone of this, she wouldn't have wanted to be associated with the cellar and JBR eating after they returned from the White's.

It makes you just want to scream about how LE tip toed around the Ramsey's!

That wineceller was filthy. No one, especially not PR, would wrap gifts in that room. There was no table or anything to put them on, and the floor was covered with mold. There were several other areas of the basement where wrapping could have been done.
In one of her depositions, PR mentions that the presents in the basement were intended for family members that they did not see for Christmas and were going to be mailed after the holiday AND some of them were for BR's birthday in January. None of the gifts in the basement were intended to be brought on the plane to Charlevoix.

The panties...the panties....
The remaining size 12s were taken from the home- either by the Rs when they left the house unsearched or by Aunt P when she removed evidence from the home. The Rs NEVER expected the fact that JBR was wearing panties too large for her would ever be realized by anyone. She was wearing long johns over them, for one thing, and only those present at the autopsy saw the panties anyway. To the Rs- they were girls' panties. They were the type of panty a little girl wears. As far as they were concerned, the panties were not, nor would they ever be, an issue.
We are all Monday Morning Quarterbacks here. We have the luxury of hindsight and we can pick the case apart and analyze. The Rs did not have that luxury. They made decisions and didn't have time to go back and rethink.
One thing we can consider that hasn't been mentioned before- see if this makes sense: Let's suppose JBR was wearing the Wednesday size 6 panties, which were stained with a lot of blood. They were replaced with an identical pair, except the replacement pair was size 12 from Jenny' set. The Rs could have hidden or removed the rest of the size 12s in order to make it seem like the ones she was found in WERE the ones from her own set. So they removed not only the bloodied size 6, but all the rest of the size 12. So that the Wednesday pair she was found in replaced the Wednesday pair they removed/hid. making it seem like JBRs set was complete and Jenny's set was not a factor. I really don't think they expected people trying to solve the kidnapping/murder of their daughter would look at the size tag on panties found on a dead child. I will say this again- I don't think they thought it would ever become an issue.

 

[UKGuy]

That wineceller was filthy. No one, especially not PR, would wrap gifts in that room. There was no table or anything to put them on, and the floor was covered with mold. There were several other areas of the basement where wrapping could have been done.
In one of her depositions, PR mentions that the presents in the basement were intended for family members that they did not see for Christmas and were going to be mailed after the holiday AND some of them were for BR's birthday in January. None of the gifts in the basement were intended to be brought on the plane to Charlevoix.

The panties...the panties....
The remaining size 12s were taken from the home- either by the Rs when they left the house unsearched or by Aunt P when she removed evidence from the home. The Rs NEVER expected the fact that JBR was wearing panties too large for her would ever be realized by anyone. She was wearing long johns over them, for one thing, and only those present at the autopsy saw the panties anyway. To the Rs- they were girls' panties. They were the type of panty a little girl wears. As far as they were concerned, the panties were not, nor would they ever be, an issue.
We are all Monday Morning Quarterbacks here. We have the luxury of hindsight and we can pick the case apart and analyze. The Rs did not have that luxury. They made decisions and didn't have time to go back and rethink.
One thing we can consider that hasn't been mentioned before- see if this makes sense: Let's suppose JBR was wearing the Wednesday size 6 panties, which were stained with a lot of blood. They were replaced with an identical pair, except the replacement pair was size 12 from Jenny' set. The Rs could have hidden or removed the rest of the size 12s in order to make it seem like the ones she was found in WERE the ones from her own set. So they removed not only the bloodied size 6, but all the rest of the size 12. So that the Wednesday pair she was found in replaced the Wednesday pair they removed/hid. making it seem like JBRs set was complete and Jenny's set was not a factor. I really don't think they expected people trying to solve the kidnapping/murder of their daughter would look at the size tag on panties found on a dead child. I will say this again- I don't think they thought it would ever become an issue.

DeeDee249,

That wineceller was filthy. No one, especially not PR, would wrap gifts in that room. There was no table or anything to put them on, and the floor was covered with mold. There were several other areas of the basement where wrapping could have been done.

Who is suggesting that gifts were being wrapped in the wine-cellar? They were merely being stored there, and they were all Burke's. e.g.

5 PATSY RAMSEY: These were gifts I think I was
6 holding back for Burke's birthday.
7 TRIP DEMUTH: They are in the red and white
8 and yellow FAO Schwartz wrapping?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.

...

14 The location in picture 148 is the correct
15 place for all of the packages to have been?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
17 TOM HANEY: Before we go on, could we just
18 talk briefly about the packages, these were presents
19 for whom, the ones that were left in there?
0392
20 PATSY RAMSEY: I believe for, you know, I
21 held some back for Burke's birthday which is in
22 January.
23 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.

...

4 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably. Well, see, these
5 came up, I was at FAO Schwartz in New York when
6 JonBenet and I were up there for a trip, and I had them
7 sent back to Boulder and they wrapped them, free gift
8 wrapping.
9 So like right here it looks like I kind of
10 peeled a little back to see what was in it because I
11 couldn't remember what was in them.
12 TRIP DEMUTH: If the wrapping has been undone
13 partially, that was --
14 PATSY RAMSEY: I probably would have done
15 that to peek to see what was in there.
16 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.
17 TOM HANEY: Where did you do the bulk of your
18 Christmas shopping, the items you put in there?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, all of this stuff right
20 here was from FAO Schwartz in New York.

But from John's Interview:

0272
20 JOHN RAMSEY: Well Patsy had gotten a bunch
21 of gifts at FAO Swartz up in New York in early
22 December, some of which were for them were for
23 Burke's birthday, which was in January. She didn't
24 know they were in the closet exactly,

So we have Patsy saying she opened up gifts that she already knew were intended for Burke, e.g. the FAO Swartz wrapping tells her this. Then we have John saying She didn't know they were in the closet exactly,, how does he know this? And we have Patsy stating in another interview that she placed all the size-12's into JonBenet's panty drawer, on which she is told no size-12's were recovered from the panty drawer.

I really don't think they expected people trying to solve the kidnapping/murder of their daughter would look at the size tag on panties found on a dead child. I will say this again- I don't think they thought it would ever become an issue.

Your explanation may be correct, that is the Ramsey's were staging a crime-scene and intended the size-12's to appear to originate from the size-6's, but would a simple visual inspection, comparison not reveal the obvious difference, all without looking at size-tags?

Regardless of the actual truth both John and Patsy's statements relating to the FAO Schwartz wrapping and the pack of size-12's yield contradictions. Presumably when the Ramsey's returned the remaining size-12's they were minus gift wrapping?

This is the issue here e.g. who can offer evidence that the size-12's were ever gift-wrapped in the first place, never mind them ever being located in the wine-cellar/basement. there was absolutely no need for them to be in the basement.

I suspect it was John who had placed those gifts into the wine-cellar hiding them from Burke, and since it was John who pre-loaded his plane with the rest of the xmas-gifts, he would have known about the size-12's if they had been an intended xmas-gift, so its not as clear cut as the PDI promoters think?


.

 

[DeeDee249]

In a huge house the size of the Rs, with several rooms in the basement, I can't believe they'd store gifts in that wineceller, wrapped or not. It is apparent that PR lied about putting the size 12 originally intended for Jenny in JBR's panty drawer, because if she had, they would have been found along with all the rest of her panties. LE reports all the panties they removed were either size 4 or 6. So we know it was a lie- the size 12s were never put in with JBR's own panties. Because we can actually see a corner of a gift in the crime scene photo of the wineceller, I feel that no matter where the gifts were originally stored, they were brought into the wineceller for the purpose of opening them to find the new panties.
I imagine a scene where it is obvious to the stagers that the panties JBR had worn that day needed to be removed and destroyed or hidden. I can imagine a frantic conversation about running upstairs for clean panties, and deciding that was too risky in case BR woke up or heard them. Even if the placing of the "Wednesday" pair wasn't intentional, as I believe it was, I can envision PR saying "wait a minute- we can't risk going upstairs for clean panties but I just remembered I have the set I bought for Jenny- let's use those".

 

[UKGuy]

In a huge house the size of the Rs, with several rooms in the basement, I can't believe they'd store gifts in that wineceller, wrapped or not. It is apparent that PR lied about putting the size 12 originally intended for Jenny in JBR's panty drawer, because if she had, they would have been found along with all the rest of her panties. LE reports all the panties they removed were either size 4 or 6. So we know it was a lie- the size 12s were never put in with JBR's own panties. Because we can actually see a corner of a gift in the crime scene photo of the wineceller, I feel that no matter where the gifts were originally stored, they were brought into the wineceller for the purpose of opening them to find the new panties.
I imagine a scene where it is obvious to the stagers that the panties JBR had worn that day needed to be removed and destroyed or hidden. I can imagine a frantic conversation about running upstairs for clean panties, and deciding that was too risky in case BR woke up or heard them. Even if the placing of the "Wednesday" pair wasn't intentional, as I believe it was, I can envision PR saying "wait a minute- we can't risk going upstairs for clean panties but I just remembered I have the set I bought for Jenny- let's use those".

DeeDee249,

In a huge house the size of the Rs, with several rooms in the basement, I can't believe they'd store gifts in that wineceller, wrapped or not.

OK maybe you do not believe it, that does not detract from the evidence, which is that there were three FAO Schwartz wrapped gifts in the wine-cellar.

So is your position that the partially wrapped gifts that were left behind in the wine-cellar, alike JonBenet's barbie-gown, a matter of circumstance or error?

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,

OK maybe you do not believe it, that does not detract from the evidence, which is that there were three FAO Schwartz wrapped gifts in the wine-cellar.

So is your position that the partially wrapped gifts that were left behind in the wine-cellar, alike JonBenet's barbie-gown, a matter of circumstance or error?

Of course not. Evidence merely shows gifts IN the wineceller. Evidence cannot determine WHY they were there or WHEN they were placed there. Just because those gifts were found in the wineceller does not mean that they were stored in the wineceller. They were brought in there to look for the panties.

 

[trixie]

Patsy or John, I can't remember which one, said they often hid gifts in there because it was a room the children couldn't get into because they could lock it and the children couldn't reach the latch. So for whatever it's worth.......

 

[UKGuy]

Of course not. Evidence merely shows gifts IN the wineceller. Evidence cannot determine WHY they were there or WHEN they were placed there. Just because those gifts were found in the wineceller does not mean that they were stored in the wineceller. They were brought in there to look for the panties.

DeeDee249,

They were brought in there to look for the panties.

What? Why would Patsy take the three FAO Schwartz wrapped gifts into a wine-cellar to look for panties, she already knew they were intended for Burke, the gift wrapping tells her that, why not look for the panties in the original location, why introduce external forensic evidence into your staged crime-scene?

How does your PDI theory explain why Patsy removed the remaining size-12's including any alleged gift-wrapping paper, yet left behind Burke's partially-wrapped gifts?






.

 

[UKGuy]

Patsy or John, I can't remember which one, said they often hid gifts in there because it was a room the children couldn't get into because they could lock it and the children couldn't reach the latch. So for whatever it's worth.......

trixie,
Yes that was put forward by the Ramsey's, although it does seem a curious place to store gifts, latch or not.

But the bigger question is why would the size-12's be down there, who do these need to be hidden from?

Patsy and John contradict each other over the xmas-gifts just as they do with the size-12's. So something does not add up here.


.

 

[rashomon]

Patsy or John, I can't remember which one, said they often hid gifts in there because it was a room the children couldn't get into because they could lock it and the children couldn't reach the latch. So for whatever it's worth.......

This explanation makes sense imo. That so-called wine cellar was really a pretty dirty place, so maybe Patsy did the actual gift wrapping somewhere else in the basement and merely stored the gifts in the wine cellar.

[UKGuy]:
But the bigger question is why would the size-12's be down there, who do these need to be hidden from?

Maybe Patsy used that room for the other gifts too, so that she had them all stored in one place.

 

[trixie]

trixie,
Yes that was put forward by the Ramsey's, although it does seem a curious place to store gifts, latch or not.

But the bigger question is why would the size-12's be down there, who do these need to be hidden from?

Patsy and John contradict each other over the xmas-gifts just as they do with the size-12's. So something does not add up here.


.

UKGuy don't give your self a headache over this. I agree it doesn't make sense either and I don't believe that's where they were but I've already been informed by more than one poster on this forum that they are going to believe what they want to believe anyway, no matter what, so like I said, don't give yourself a headache trying to figure out why.

 

[coloradokares]

Patsy or John, I can't remember which one, said they often hid gifts in there because it was a room the children couldn't get into because they could lock it and the children couldn't reach the latch. So for whatever it's worth.......

Not saying that is not so. Just saying in all my reading I dont remember reading that. Would you have the link or page number. Thanks

 

[coloradokares]

Funny thing....In her 1998 Patsy was asked if she even remembered the last time that John played golf, and she said "NO". So, he was not an AVID golfer, but YET he wanted that doggone golf bag....WHY? What was he going to do with it? He was a millionaire...he could have bought a new golf bag....why did he have to have that particular bag? The last thing on MY mind would be a damn (excuse my language please) golf bag, if my daughter had just been murdered...and like you said...it was the middle of a Colorado winter. It doesn't even start to warm up there, until around April. (CK correct me if I am wrong...but, thats the way it is in MT, and we were only two states above you guys). There is no telling what secrets that golf bag held.

Actually there are winters here where you could have a BBQ in the back yard or golf in the winter. On Christmas. However that is not possible to say that about that Christmas, nope it snowed.

 

[trixie]

Not saying that is not so. Just saying in all my reading I dont remember reading that. Would you have the link or page number. Thanks

Nope no link or page number. I'd have to re-read every transcript and every book ever written on this case and I don't have the time for that. Maybe you'll run across it some day. UKGuy seems to believe he's read it somewhere too

 

[DeeDee249]

It could have been in one of PR's interviews where she said that- but as with all things PR said in her interviews- it was after the murder and obviously they would tailor their answers to fit the evidence. It isn't surprised to see that when shown crime scene photos and asked by LE to explain the "partially wrapped" gifts in the wineceller that she would offer her explanation of what they were, why they were there and why they were "partially wrapped". Why would we believe any of it? Why believe they were BR's birthday gifts just because she said so.

UKGuy- I am a RDI, I am not exclusively a PDI, though I must say I lean that way. I think you have to realize that we will never know exactly where those panties were originally. We DO know that PR admits buying them as a gift for Jenny. So they existed in the house. Size 12 Bloomies were bought- size 12 Bloomies were on a dead JBR. This was Christmas. PR was notoriously lax about details, so no surprise that they hadn't been mailed out yet.
Here's my logic:
1. PR admit buying size 12 Bloomies Day of the Week panties in size 12 as a gift for her niece Jenny on her shopping trip to NYC in November 1996, included in the set, as in all Day of the Week sets, was a pair that said "Wednesday".
2. A pair of size 12 Bloomies Day of the Week panties saying "Wednedsay" were found on a dead JBR.
3. It should be as least considered that the pair on JBR was the same pair as was included in that set bought for Jenny, as size 12 was definitely NOT bought for JBR.
4. If they were bought as a gift, it should be at least considered that they may have been wrapped. If they were wrapped, the box had to be UNwrapped to get the panties out.
5. The partially "wrapped" gifts in that photo may very well have been partially "UNwrapped".
6. The stagers HAD to get them from somewhere. Intruders would not know either that they existed in a wrapped gift or that JBR's panties were not stored in her bedroom but in her bathroom.
7. Therefore, it is my OPINION that either PR or JR used the panties intended for Jenny, either because they were aware of the fact that those panties were right there in the basement; they MAY have matched panties JBR had on that day; OR they used them because they did not want to go back upstairs to her room to get one of her own pairs.
If they were taken from Jenny's wrapped gift, it has to be considered that the wrapped gift was already in the basement, and was, in fact one of the gifts in the crime scene photo, regardless of what PR said those gifts were.
She herself claims that she stored gifts there, though I don't believe her claim that she wrapped gifts in the wineceller (No table in there- no one would sit on the dirty floor to wrap presents).
SO- Size 12 panties bought for Jenny = opened gifts in wineceller = Jenny's panties removed from wrapped gift and put on a dead JBR.

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy don't give your self a headache over this. I agree it doesn't make sense either and I don't believe that's where they were but I've already been informed by more than one poster on this forum that they are going to believe what they want to believe anyway, no matter what, so like I said, don't give yourself a headache trying to figure out why.

trixie
Sure I try not to. Patsy is supposed to have stated in some interview that she sometimes latched the wc door and did it that xmas to hide the gifts from the children. This may be an urban legend or it may be true, Either way the childrens gifts had been opened on xmas-day, so apart from Burke's gifts what else was there to hide? That room was used as a store room nothing else, patsy stated in another interview that xmas trees etc were stored there, and hinted at another room, referred to as the back-room for her main xmas-business.

But John gets factored in here too, he is on record stating he and Patsy removed the xmas-gifts from the basement e.g.
DOI, page2:

"Patsy and I savored the night before Christmas, helping Santa Claus put everything in place". "We had made several trips to the basement, where Patsy kept the wrapped gifts stashed away".

Then there are his trips to the plane with xmas-gift, all retrieved from the basement.

Also
DOI, page2: John Ramsey gets hidden bike from Barnhill neighbor
DOI, page242: Patsy gets My Twinn doll from basement laundry area

The other salient point is did the alleged intruder find the wine-cellar latched prior to use, then dutifully latch it after depositing JonBenet?

Why did Fleet White not see JonBenet when he unlatched the door that morning?

 

[rashomon]

DeeDee249,
Nobody is suggesting this. What I am suggesting is that there was two separate distinct staging events. And that the first undertaken by John involves him in redressing JonBenet in the size-12's, this is unknown to Patsy. A second staging event undertaken by Patsy involves her in adding further staging elements e.g. the wrist restraints, garrote to the ligature, duct-tape on her mouth. All of which can be done whilst JonBenet is wrapped in the blanket.

These assumptions explain why Patsy cannot explain why JonBenet is wearing size-12's, even although by any PDI she should have know the question was going to arise, since she originally purchased them, and that the forensic evidence appears to be partitioned the way it is?

UKGuy,
some questions:

- All of JonBenet's size 4-6 underwear had a days of the week on them too. Why didn't the stager just grab a Wednesday pair from her drawer?

- And if it was John who redressed JonBenet in the size 12s, how would he know how to find them without Patsy telling him where they were kept?

- Why do you think the acute genital wound was inflicted?