Partially Wrapped Gifts

[UKGuy]

not to mention,Deedee pointed out that they looked just the same as her size 6's...so there would have been no real reason for her to have wanted them.they were identical,except for size.

JMO8778,
If JonBenet really wanted those size-12's Patsy could have simply phoned Bloomingdales and asked for another tube of size-12's to be charged to her account and mailed either to Jenny or to Boulder for JonBenet to use.


John loaded the xmas-gifts onto his plane, so presumably those left behind were not xmas gifts e.g.

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Well Patsy had gotten a bunch
21 of gifts at FAO Swartz up in New York in early
22 December, some of which were for them were for
23 Burke's birthday, which was in January. She didn't
24 know they were in the closet exactly,

So applying Occam the gifts :
Partially wrapped FAO Schwartz (55KKY)
Partially wrapped FAO Schwartz (56KKY)
Partially wrapped FAO Schwartz (57KKY)
are most likely Burkes birthday presents?

.

 

[JMO8778]

Look at the link with the white blanket where you can see the small corner of the FAO Schwartz box. NO WAY PR kept wrapped presents for BR or anybody else in that filthy wineceller. No one would do that, especially in a house the size of the Rs. If you needed to keep presents in the basement, there were several other basement rooms that were carpeted. No one would leave them on that dirty floor when there were alternatives. For one, if you wanted to hide it from your son, you could keep it in your own bedroom somewhere. This confirms, to me at least, even more that the panties on the body were wrapped in one of the presents and brought into that room. I believe the redressing may have even occurred right in the wineceller.

that's what I've felt all along.occam's says it happened right there.

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,
If JonBenet really wanted those size-12's Patsy could have simply phoned Bloomingdales and asked for another tube of size-12's to be charged to her account and mailed either to Jenny or to Boulder for JonBenet to use.

for sure.

John loaded the xmas-gifts onto his plane, so presumably those left behind were not xmas gifts e.g.

So applying Occam the gifts :
Partially wrapped FAO Schwartz (55KKY)
Partially wrapped FAO Schwartz (56KKY)
Partially wrapped FAO Schwartz (57KKY)
are most likely Burkes birthday presents?

.

perhaps they just weren't presents that were going to MI...esp. if Patsy had intended to mail them when she got back.
as far as what's on the plane,we know Patsy did the shopping,so she would have put what's going to MI somewhere where JR would know where they were,with gift tags on them of course.I can only speak for myself,but I would have put them separate from the rest.

 

[JMO8778]

DeeDee249,
It sure does seem like a curious place to hide xmas-gifts!

just the fact that they were on that dirty floor means one or both of the R's KNEW those presents weren't going anywhere after JB's body was discovered! They could have asked PP to retrieve them,but apparently did not.

 

[Ames]

Go back to your own post #12 where you quote UKGuy. Click on the first link (the community/boulder one) for the search affidavit and scroll down till you read the part where it mentions Detective Arndt saying "JR went immediately to the basement, followed by Fleet White and John Fernie". It's in there.

Thanks, I must have missed that link the first time. I had NO idea that John Fernie went with them, that's the first I have heard of that before.

 

[Ames]

Ames,

Answer: by wrapping the paper around the gift, and folding it correctly, then leaving it as is, so it can be taped, string tied, remember that nylon cord? Or ribbon tied etc.


Answer: because they do not have everything required to finish the task at hand but want to make some progress, rather than start from zero at a later date.

You may be correct but simply agreeing with someone elses speculation does not confirm anything. Just like everytime you see a white swan does not mean all swans are white!

I am not simply agreeing with DeeDee, I have thought that this is what happened all along. IMO....it was JOHN that went looking for the panties. Patsy could have told him that there were some wrapped down there...and while she was upstairs penning the RN, he was frantically searching for those size 12 Bloomies.

Just this fact alone...says that there was no intruder. Why would an intruder CARE enough to place another pair of panties....much less the exact same ones...except for the size....on a dead child?

 

[UKGuy]

I am not simply agreeing with DeeDee, I have thought that this is what happened all along. IMO....it was JOHN that went looking for the panties. Patsy could have told him that there were some wrapped down there...and while she was upstairs penning the RN, he was frantically searching for those size 12 Bloomies.

Just this fact alone...says that there was no intruder. Why would an intruder CARE enough to place another pair of panties....much less the exact same ones...except for the size....on a dead child?

Ames,
Well I agree with you, I reckon it was John who redressed JonBenet in those size-12's, he probably thought it seemed like a clever idea at the time. Patsy would have known the size-12's were out of place, look who she purchased them for, also she has no backup story, zilch, imo she is simply following someone elses script.

Just this fact alone...says that there was no intruder. Why would an intruder CARE enough to place another pair of panties....much less the exact same ones...except for the size....on a dead child?

I guess you could dream up some reason for an intruder redressing JonBenet, but the big mistake is that the intruder then removed the remaining 6-pairs of size-12's, but left a wiped clean flashlight behind.

The size-12's irrespective of their origin prove that the wine-cellar is a staged crime-scene. This and the other inconsistencies such as the pineapple snack implicate all three residents in the death of JonBenet.


.

 

[Ames]

Ames,
Well I agree with you, I reckon it was John who redressed JonBenet in those size-12's, he probably thought it seemed like a clever idea at the time. Patsy would have known the size-12's were out of place, look who she purchased them for, also she has no backup story, zilch, imo she is simply following someone elses script.


I guess you could dream up some reason for an intruder redressing JonBenet, but the big mistake is that the intruder then removed the remaining 6-pairs of size-12's, but left a wiped clean flashlight behind.

The size-12's irrespective of their origin prove that the wine-cellar is a staged crime-scene. This and the other inconsistencies such as the pineapple snack implicate all three residents in the death of JonBenet.


.

I have no doubt that John is the one that re-dressed her in those size 12's. I can imagine it now.....John yelling up to Patsy who is in the middle of her War and Peace Ransom letter...JOHN: "PATSY!! OKAY...I HAVE WIPED HER DOWN, I THINK THAT WE NEED TO PUT SOME CLEAN UNDERWEAR ON HER, ONE WITHOUT ANY STAINS OR OUR DNA!!!" PATSY: "JOHN, LOOK THERE IN THE BASEMENT, THERE ARE SOME WRAPPED GIFTS, ONE IS A PAIR OF BLOOMIES EXACTLY LIKE THE ONES THAT YOU JUST TOOK OFF OF HER,.. PUT THOSE ON HER!!!!" JOHN: "OKAY".

I think that all of the staging, including the redressing was done right there in that WC. IMO..those remaining size 12 Bloomies were in John's golf bag.

 

[JMO8778]

I have no doubt that John is the one that re-dressed her in those size 12's. I can imagine it now.....John yelling up to Patsy who is in the middle of her War and Peace Ransom letter...JOHN: "PATSY!! OKAY...I HAVE WIPED HER DOWN, I THINK THAT WE NEED TO PUT SOME CLEAN UNDERWEAR ON HER, ONE WITHOUT ANY STAINS OR OUR DNA!!!" PATSY: "JOHN, LOOK THERE IN THE BASEMENT, THERE ARE SOME WRAPPED GIFTS, ONE IS A PAIR OF BLOOMIES EXACTLY LIKE THE ONES THAT YOU JUST TOOK OFF OF HER,.. PUT THOSE ON HER!!!!" JOHN: "OKAY".

I think that all of the staging, including the redressing was done right there in that WC. IMO..those remaining size 12 Bloomies were in John's golf bag.

I agree w. all,and yes,BOOM..contents of the golf bag,there it is !!

 

[Ames]

I agree w. all,and yes,BOOM..contents of the golf bag,there it is !!

I could also imagine John saying..."PATSY! I CAN'T FIND THEM...WHICH ONE IS IT!!" And Patsy saying..."FOR HEAVEN SAKE JOHN, I AM IN THE MIDDLE OF WRITING A RANSOM NOTE, JUST LOOK FOR THEM". All of this is said in a total panicky tone. John then precedes to tear open the packages until he finds the Bloomies that he is looking for.

 

[DeeDee249]

I could also imagine John saying..."PATSY! I CAN'T FIND THEM...WHICH ONE IS IT!!" And Patsy saying..."FOR HEAVEN SAKE JOHN, I AM IN THE MIDDLE OF WRITING A RANSOM NOTE, JUST LOOK FOR THEM". All of this is said in a total panicky tone. John then precedes to tear open the packages until he finds the Bloomies that he is looking for.

And that sounds like a plan to me.

 

[Ames]

And that sounds like a plan to me.

Me too. That's how it happened...I just KNOW it is!!!

 

[Blondieskatz]

Does nyone know where the golf clubs were kept? I'm thinking the panties taken off of her and the other size 12's were in that golf bag. Hmmmm, wonder what else might have been in there other than gold clubs.

 

[JMO8778]

The golf clubs were said to be right outside the WC,and you can see this in the movie PMPT.

 

[DeeDee249]

Does nyone know where the golf clubs were kept? I'm thinking the panties taken off of her and the other size 12's were in that golf bag. Hmmmm, wonder what else might have been in there other than gold clubs.

There is a crime scene photo (on acandyrose) that showed the golf bag in a hallway right outside the wineceller door. It is crime scene photo #72. It was THIS golf bag that JR made such a point of asking his sister-in-law to retrieve from the house. He specifically asked for it. In the middle of a Colorado winter. 2 days after his daughter was "found" murdered not 10 feet from that golf bag. Let's see if this works. www.acandyrose.com/072basement.jpg

 

[Ames]

There is a crime scene photo (on acandyrose) that showed the golf bag in a hallway right outside the wineceller door. It is crime scene photo #72. It was THIS golf bag that JR made such a point of asking his sister-in-law to retrieve from the house. He specifically asked for it. In the middle of a Colorado winter. 2 days after his daughter was "found" murdered not 10 feet from that golf bag. Let's see if this works. www.acandyrose.com/072basement.jpg

Funny thing....In her 1998 Patsy was asked if she even remembered the last time that John played golf, and she said "NO". So, he was not an AVID golfer, but YET he wanted that doggone golf bag....WHY? What was he going to do with it? He was a millionaire...he could have bought a new golf bag....why did he have to have that particular bag? The last thing on MY mind would be a damn (excuse my language please) golf bag, if my daughter had just been murdered...and like you said...it was the middle of a Colorado winter. It doesn't even start to warm up there, until around April. (CK correct me if I am wrong...but, thats the way it is in MT, and we were only two states above you guys). There is no telling what secrets that golf bag held.

 

[JMO8778]

Funny thing....In her 1998 Patsy was asked if she even remembered the last time that John played golf, and she said "NO".

..perhaps there's a point here w. the underwear...Patsy's story doesn't corroborate with JR's re: the location of the size 12's before the murder,nor does it seem she knew where the rest were located afterwards..and JR's fiber evidence is on them as well.they apparently didn't think to collaberate on this aspect of the case,thinking the size 12's as of little or no importance.I'm not sure what other relevance that would hold,though,other than suggesting that Patsy wasn't present during that aspect of the staging,nor did JR tell her what he did with the rest of the underwear.
...perhaps when he was finished,that's when he came up from the basement screaming,and Patsy was screaming,etc.,as she blurted out in the interview.(JAT).

There is no telling what secrets that golf bag held.

amen ! ..too bad they can't xray a picture and see what was in it !

 

[UKGuy]

..perhaps there's a point here w. the underwear...Patsy's story doesn't corroborate with JR's re: the location of the size 12's before the murder,nor does it seem she knew where the rest were located afterwards..and JR's fiber evidence is on them as well.they apparently didn't think to collaberate on this aspect of the case,thinking the size 12's as of little or no importance.I'm not sure what other relevance that would hold,though,other than suggesting that Patsy wasn't present during that aspect of the staging,nor did JR tell her what he did with the rest of the underwear.
...perhaps when he was finished,that's when he came up from the basement screaming,and Patsy was screaming,etc.,as she blurted out in the interview.(JAT).


amen ! ..too bad they can't xray a picture and see what was in it !

JMO8778,
Your intuition is correct. Patsy has no coherent explanation for the size-12's, yet she purchased them as gift for her niece Jenny. So common sense suggests she would know to set things up to show why JonBenet was wearing size-12's e.g. place the remaining pairs into her panty drawer? She does not do this despite having plenty time to achieve this.

Patsy wasn't present during that aspect of the staging,nor did JR tell her what he did with the rest of the underwear.

Yes, so maybe it was John who sexually assaulted JonBenet to mask prior molestation, wiping her down, and redressing her in the size-12's, longjohns, and wrapping her in the blanket, all to decieve Patsy, who proceeded to add the garrote, wrist restraints and duct-tape, all of which can be done after JonBenet has been cleaned up and redressed?

So like the sexual assault the following question must be answered by those promoting the PDI; why did Patsy remove the size-12's from the crime-scene thereby linking herself and family to the death of JonBenet?

.

 

[rashomon]

Ames,
Well I agree with you, I reckon it was John who redressed JonBenet in those size-12's, he probably thought it seemed like a clever idea at the time. Patsy would have known the size-12's were out of place, look who she purchased them for, also she has no backup story, zilch, imo she is simply following someone elses script.

I know we've been over this many times, but still the question is in my mind: why didn't John just grab a pair of the many size 4-6 pairs from JonBenet's drawer upstairs?
Or why didn' t Patsy just tell him to get a fitting pair from JonBenet's drawer?
For all of Jonbenet's size 4-6 underwear had days of the week written on them also, so if it was important for the stager(s) of the scene that she wear a Wednesday pair, they could have obtained that from the size 4-6s too.
Why go to the trouble of removing a (far too large) pair from a partially wrapped Christmas gift set to put on the victim? Why not just run upstairs quickly and get a size 6 pair?

I guess you could dream up some reason for an intruder redressing JonBenet, but the big mistake is that the intruder then removed the remaining 6-pairs of size-12's, but left a wiped clean flashlight behind.

UKGuy,
do you think the Ramseys left the flashlight behind there there accidentally or on purpose?

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,
Your intuition is correct. Patsy has no coherent explanation for the size-12's, yet she purchased them as gift for her niece Jenny. So common sense suggests she would know to set things up to show why JonBenet was wearing size-12's e.g. place the remaining pairs into her panty drawer? She does not do this despite having plenty time to achieve this.


Yes, so maybe it was John who sexually assaulted JonBenet to mask prior molestation, wiping her down, and redressing her in the size-12's, longjohns, and wrapping her in the blanket, all to decieve Patsy, who proceeded to add the garrote, wrist restraints and duct-tape, all of which can be done after JonBenet has been cleaned up and redressed?

yes,and it does appear the wrist 'restraints',(I put it that way since they were tied so loosely),were applied *after she went into rigor.The duct tape sounds just as poorly done,seeing as it sounds like it was nothing more than a used piece of skinny tape.And the garrote wasn't functional as such,but,on that note,I do have a question...seeing as there was a splinter or something (possibly varnish?) found inside JB, that could be attributed to the paintbrush being broken,would it not be more likely that JR broke the brush,and possibly even did ALL of the staging? (the hand that broke the brush would be more likely to have made the garrote as well,would it not?) For one,I think he would have been more likely to have known how to tie that knot (from sailing) than Patsy would have,and to be familiar w. something such as a garrote,to begin with.
My thought is that perhaps he told Patsy what items he needed,and as she retrieved them,she unknowingly left her fiber evidence on them.The fact that JR took a shower and Patsy did not,demonstrates to me that she,or perhaps they both..thought she had no forensic evidence to wash off.

So like the sexual assault the following question must be answered by those promoting the PDI; why did Patsy remove the size-12's from the crime-scene thereby linking herself and family to the death of JonBenet?

.

it's obvious she didn't.but if she and JR didn't bother to corroborate on the crime scene...then perhaps she wasn't there for any of it? JAT.