Patsy Ramsey

[BBB167893]

The challenge then is to produce ONE simple RDI theory that makes sense of the evidence. ONE.

Got it.

Thomas didn’t do it: Kolar didn’t do it.

In YOUR opinion. Why don't you just say that?

YOU can’t do it (don’t worry, neither can anyone else).

Oh, no? Try this on for size:

The Ramseys had attended a party on Christmas night at the house of Fleet and Priscilla White. When they got home, both parents said that they put JonBenet to bed and John worked with Burke on a model train set for a while. After that, it becomes a nightmare:
The Ramseys get home from the party at the Whites'. Burke asks for a bedtime snack. Patsy sees a bowl of pineapple on the kitchen counter and gives him some, telling him not to paw at it. Both children have some.
JOHN: "Come on, honey. Let's get you to bed. Be with you in a minute, son."
BURKE: "I'll wait for you there, Dad."
PATSY: "Just a quick check to see if I missed anything."
Patsy is now alone. She's doing her thing. John puts JonBenet in bed. They speak for a minute. Maybe something else. Maybe he gives her privates a "quick check." He goes down to the basement.
Patsy's catching her breath in the living room. John and Burke come up.
JOHN: Head on up to bed, son.
BURKE: "Okay, Dad."
The parents are alone.
JOHN: "Come on up to bed."
PATSY: "No, I'm not done yet."
JOHN: "You shouldn't take so much on yourself."
PATSY (irritated at him): "I have to. I do everything around here."
JOHN: "Sorry I mentioned it."
John goes upstairs. Soon, JonBenet is back down.
PATSY: "What do you want now, honey," with a little irritation in her voice.
JONBENET: "I did it again."
PATSY: "Oh, God. Come on."
Up to JonBenet's room.
PATSY: "I don't see anything."
JONBENET: "I didn't go to bed yet."
PATSY: "Can't you do anything I ask?"
JONBENET: "I'm sorry."
PATSY: "Get in there."
Into the bathroom. Patsy cleans her up.
PATSY: "Here, don't tell you're father."
JONBENET: "You and Daddy tell me secrets."
PATSY: "Secrets?"
JONBENET: "Yeah, Daddy tells me to keep secrets."
PATSY: "Like what?"
JONBENET (suddenly sullen): "It wouldn't be a secret then."
PATSY (now more irritated): "Fine."
Patsy becomes rough.
JONBENET: "OW! Mommy, that hurts! Daddy's nicer."
PATSY: "I didn't think your father cleaned you up."
JONBENET: "He doesn't. He calls it our special game."
PATSY's head snaps up. Their eyes meet.
JONBENET (whispering): "I told the secret."
PATSY (in a rage): "YOU ROTTEN LITTLE LIAR!!!"
JONBENET (almost in a panic): "I'm sorry, Mommy!"
PATSY: "I'll teach you a lesson you won't forget!"
JonBenet tries to run away, but her pants are still around her knees. She tries to pull them up, but trips. As she gets up, Patsy grabs her collar and begins to struggle with her. She MEANS to toss JonBenet onto the bed face-first and spank the daylights out of her. But during the fight, JonBenet takes a hard blow that cracks her skull.
Patsy sees JonBenet crumpled on the floor.
PATSY: "That won't work, you little faker. You're in big trouble."
She picks JonBenet up and lays her on the bed. But she's so limp.
PATSY: "I said, cut it out."
Nothing. JonBenet is in shock and doesn't seem to be breathing.
PATSY (anger replaced by worry): "JonBenet Patricia Ramsey, you cut that out right now. Baby? (Now panicked): BABY?! PLEASE say something! Oh, GOD, I didn't mean to! No, oh, God, no! Not my baby!"
John comes in.
JOHN: "What the hell is going on in here?!"
Patsy turns. Her eyes are full of tears and hate. She blitzes him.
PATSY: "YOU BA*****!"
He grabs her wrists. "Are you crazy?!" He sees JonBenet. "What did you do?!"
PATSY: "Me?! You couldn't get it from me, so you took her! And I believed YOU!"
JOHN: "You stupid, crazy b****! I have to save her!"
PATSY: "It's too late now! She's dead!"
JOHN: "NO! That's impossible!" (Keep in mind, John's lost Beth.)
PATSY: "I'll see you rot for this!"
JOHN: "How?! You killed her."
Patsy fights until she's fought-out. She collapses to the floor, sobbing.
JOHN: "Honey..."
PATSY: "We can't leave her like this. She's so beautiful. like an angel. She deserves better."
JOHN: "I can't believe this. Burke...what will happen to him?"
PATSY: "He can't ever know about this. He can't think we killed JonBenet."
JOHN: "How do we make this right?"
PATSY: "I thought you were the big expert!"
JOHN: "Shut up! I'm trying to think."
PATSY: "What kind of person would do this?"
JOHN: "The kind we saw in the Navy. Damn, I wish I could remember who they were."
And it just spirals from there. Putting anything they can think of into a possible scenario, they stage a scene. But Patsy's dramatic flair puts it over the top. John, wracked with guilt, knows she hangs by a hair, so he says nothing. He also knows that the truth will put them in prison where the inmates will do horrible things to them...
PATSY: "What kind of knot do we use?"
JOHN: "Do it yourself."
Patsy ties a sloppy noose and sloppier wrist ties.
JOHN: "I can't even look at her like that."
They think about bundling her up to dump, but it's too risky. In the basement.
PATSY: "Wouldn't she have been messed with down there?"
JOHN: "Don't ask me to--"
PATSY: "You already DID! That's how we got into this mess."
JOHN: "I can't touch her like this." He uses the brush to avoid touching her privates. His fibers end up on her, having scuffed off his sleeve on her clothing when he pulls his arm back. "Can you write left-handed?"
PATSY: "Yeah, but--"
JOHN: "Come on."
John dictates part of the note, she writes. At this point, she's caught up in this. Her greatest pageant, her greatest adventure. It's exhilarating.

I did you a favor, Anti-K. You didn't have to pay to read it, like most people do.

 

[BBB167893]

I was asking for one SIMPLE RDI explanation that makes sense of the evidence. Whether or not a scintilla of intruder evidence exists has nothing to do with that.

Oh, but it DOES! That's the sum total of my argument. As Sir Arthur Conan Doyle famously wrote in the persona of Sherlock Holmes, "when you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be truth."

 

[BBB167893]

Thank you Mera.
Yes I was aware that LHP stated this.
My question was did Patsy back her up?
Was Patsy even asked in the interviews if she had a habit of putting things on the spiral stairs for LHP?

What difference does that make?

 

[BBB167893]

It was the housekeeper LHP who told police Patsy left her handbags on the back stairs for her to clean once a week. She also told police that she and Patsy used to communicate by leaving notes for each other on the back stairs. Patsy never mentioned this to police. I felt the Rs picked LHP as their "patsy" (no pun intended) for this crime right from the start. JR said the SECOND he brought JB's body up from the basement that "this is an inside job". LHP was the perfect patsy, too. She knew the family well, knew the house, was familiar with notes being left on the stairs (whereas a REAL kidnapper would have left the note on the kid's bed- no intruder would even know Patsy used those stairs instead of the main staircase) and LHP needed money- having asked Patsy for a $2000 loan just that month. I doubt Patsy would mention to police that she had habit of using those stairs for "communication".

You left out one important thing, DeeDee: she didn't have the kind of money to hire high-priced legal talent like they did. She would likely have gotten a legal-aid lawyer. That's assuming the Rs didn't pay her legal expenses had she been arrested. Somehow, I just can't see them letting her go to prison for their crime.

 

[Meara]

It was the housekeeper LHP who told police Patsy left her handbags on the back stairs for her to clean once a week. She also told police that she and Patsy used to communicate by leaving notes for each other on the back stairs. Patsy never mentioned this to police. I felt the Rs picked LHP as their "patsy" (no pun intended) for this crime right from the start. JR said the SECOND he brought JB's body up from the basement that "this is an inside job". LHP was the perfect patsy, too. She knew the family well, knew the house, was familiar with notes being left on the stairs (whereas a REAL kidnapper would have left the note on the kid's bed- no intruder would even know Patsy used those stairs instead of the main staircase) and LHP needed money- having asked Patsy for a $2000 loan just that month. I doubt Patsy would mention to police that she had habit of using those stairs for "communication".

DeeDee, I tend to be a little more detached these days. Well - passionate as ever about this case but less reactive, and then I do something like read your post shortly after finishing Kolar's AMA and the outrage makes it hard to sit still.

If Kolar is right - and I believe he is - it's not hard for me to feel compassion for these parents faced with such ghastly realizations and choices who wanted to save their son's future. The minute I'm reminded that they immediately offered up LHP as prime suspect -- fffft! out the window it goes. If they felt they had to stonewall, they could have done it without naming anyone.

But it's so much more than that. If they were willing to throw LHP (and all the others) under the bus, who were they, really? Do truly good, lovely people have such a sudden change of character? Could they have known what was going on with BR but didn't want to know? Did they know but say it wasn't that serious, they could manage it, he'd grow out of it? Many signs point to some form of denial, most sternly the Grand Jury indictments. And what was going on with BR was connected to the "mega-JonBenet thing", about which both parents were absolutely in denial, with PR's "couple of Sunday afternoons" and JR's masterful obliviousness to his daughter's bleached blond hair and costumes that took her from wanting to be a cowboy's sweetheart to headlining in Vegas.

And BR was not quite 10, so where did he learn about coercive/aggressive sexual behavior? My research says that children that young learn it from watching adults have sex, or from *advertiser censored*, or from being sexually abused themselves. Yes, these things can happen out of the parents' awareness, but you do have to wonder where BR got his education and why they didn't notice anything. Or why they didn't notice his anger.

All in all I am left with the impression that it was not their public image the Rams primarily wanted to protect but their self-image. We are the Christmas newsletter family, yes, yes, yes. We are not the *advertiser censored* smeared around the house family, no, no, no.

It was all a little more bearable (slightly less unbearable) when I still could believe PR killed her daughter, or that JR did and sexually abused her, too, because that would mean they were disordered in some way; some mitigating pathology stood between them and normal choices. But this……. They didn't kill her, but they had created an illusion about themselves, and they wanted the illusion so badly they bet their daughter's life on it…...and then created a false version of her death, too - one that fit right in with the next newsletter. I almost never say this, but that is...evil.

I probably shouldn't be posting right now. Perhaps I will see things a little less starkly later. Perhaps.

The one thing that gave me pause reading Kolar's AMA was wondering, How did BR get JBR's unconscious body down to the basement without leaving lots of abrasions and bruises? It's a real question, yet it feels like I'm grasping at a straw.

 

[Anti-K]

Quite so.



You mean they wouldn't have one already made? And even then, make an inefficient, handled model?



NOW you're onto it: if it HAD been an intruder, they wouldn't have staged it to LOOK like an intruder!

There was nothing inefficient about the handle on this so-called garrote. How could there be? Anyway...

Was this crime stage to look like an intruder? Really? No entry/exit point provided, doors locked; parents didn’t hear or see anything; ransom note and murder weapon connected to the home, etc. I think this crime was staged to look like something, but an intruder aint it.
...


AK

 

[Anti-K]

Assuming that they were thinking that far ahead! I have yet to find anyone, RDI, IDI or OTF (on-the-fence) who thinks the Ramseys were criminal masterminds. But, for the sake of argument, let's say that the people who say the idea was to pin it on the housekeeper are right. The Rs probably figured that, given the choice between a prominent local businessman with a socialite wife, and a near-broke house servant, LE would go down the primrose path, especially with them nudging LE that way with that "well, so-and-so has a key" business.

As it was, I guess they came to the same conclusion as you, because once that idea crapped out, they just got behind what Lou Smit was selling. He truly was a godsend for them (pardon the pun).

Of course, if RDI, they would have been thinking that far ahead, and, your example of them possibly wanting to pin it on the housekeeper shows this. Regardless, it doesn’t change the FACT that pointing towards an insider would be tantamount to pointing at themselves as they are the ultimate insiders: And, pointing at insiders is contradictory to pointing away from themselves.
...

AK

 

[Anti-K]

Right.



In YOUR opinion.



And?



That assumes there was any remainder LEFT! I'm not so sure there was. And even if there had been, even a schoolkid would know to get rid of it.



Uh, no, it isn't, to all of those assertions. Just a case of people who may have had (limited) KNOWLEDGE, but no EXPERIENCE.



Some explanation. Explain how Patsy's fibers got tied into it.



Oh, I agree with that. The creators wanted to distance themselves from the creation quickly.



I actually can explain it simply: it DOESN'T contradict it; they wanted to distance themselves from it.



WHY?

You know, Anti-K, this conversation reminds me of an old Johnny Cash song:

"If you waste your time a-talkin' to the people who don't listen,
"To the things that you are sayin', who do you think's gonna hear.
"And if you should die explainin' how the things that they complain about,
"Are things they could be changin', who do you think's gonna care?"

There were other lonely singers in a world turned deaf and blind,
Who were crucified for what they tried to show.
And their voices have been scattered by the swirling winds of time.
'Cos the truth remains that no-one wants to know.

This is actually pretty basic, simple stuff. Why get rid of the cord? Because it connects the murder weapon to the house. What happens when you use the paint brush? You connect the murder weapon to the house. This is contradictory behavior, you can try to rationalize it, but you can’t change the fact that it’s a contradiction.

Disposing of one demonstrates forensic concern, they were thinking about evidence being used against them and they wanted to prevent it. Using the paint brush contradicts this. No amount of criminal sophistication or experience is required to understand this.
.

Fibers consistent with the Ramsey jacket “got there” though secondary (or, tertiary, etc) transfer.
.

Covering up the sexual aspect of the crime contradicts the intent of committing the sexual assault to cover up prior abuse. This, too, is a pretty obvious b&w contradiction. You can rationalize it by saying that “they wanted to distance themselves from it“ but it still remains a contradiction.
...

AK

 

[Anti-K]

What ELSE was there?



Well, don't include me in that. I'm calling it as I see it.



I'd say yes.



Quite so!



Are those options, or are you saying they would have done those things, more or less in that order?

Sorry, I was mostly confused by your replies, and I’m not really sure how to respond. Perhaps you could clarify?
...

AK

 

[Anti-K]

Got it.



In YOUR opinion. Why don't you just say that?



Oh, no? Try this on for size:

The Ramseys had attended a party on Christmas night at the house of Fleet and Priscilla White. When they got home, both parents said that they put JonBenet to bed and John worked with Burke on a model train set for a while. After that, it becomes a nightmare:
The Ramseys get home from the party at the Whites'. Burke asks for a bedtime snack. Patsy sees a bowl of pineapple on the kitchen counter and gives him some, telling him not to paw at it. Both children have some.
JOHN: "Come on, honey. Let's get you to bed. Be with you in a minute, son."
BURKE: "I'll wait for you there, Dad."
PATSY: "Just a quick check to see if I missed anything."
Patsy is now alone. She's doing her thing. John puts JonBenet in bed. They speak for a minute. Maybe something else. Maybe he gives her privates a "quick check." He goes down to the basement.
Patsy's catching her breath in the living room. John and Burke come up.
JOHN: Head on up to bed, son.
BURKE: "Okay, Dad."
The parents are alone.
JOHN: "Come on up to bed."
PATSY: "No, I'm not done yet."
JOHN: "You shouldn't take so much on yourself."
PATSY (irritated at him): "I have to. I do everything around here."
JOHN: "Sorry I mentioned it."
John goes upstairs. Soon, JonBenet is back down.
PATSY: "What do you want now, honey," with a little irritation in her voice.
JONBENET: "I did it again."
PATSY: "Oh, God. Come on."
Up to JonBenet's room.
PATSY: "I don't see anything."
JONBENET: "I didn't go to bed yet."
PATSY: "Can't you do anything I ask?"
JONBENET: "I'm sorry."
PATSY: "Get in there."
Into the bathroom. Patsy cleans her up.
PATSY: "Here, don't tell you're father."
JONBENET: "You and Daddy tell me secrets."
PATSY: "Secrets?"
JONBENET: "Yeah, Daddy tells me to keep secrets."
PATSY: "Like what?"
JONBENET (suddenly sullen): "It wouldn't be a secret then."
PATSY (now more irritated): "Fine."
Patsy becomes rough.
JONBENET: "OW! Mommy, that hurts! Daddy's nicer."
PATSY: "I didn't think your father cleaned you up."
JONBENET: "He doesn't. He calls it our special game."
PATSY's head snaps up. Their eyes meet.
JONBENET (whispering): "I told the secret."
PATSY (in a rage): "YOU ROTTEN LITTLE LIAR!!!"
JONBENET (almost in a panic): "I'm sorry, Mommy!"
PATSY: "I'll teach you a lesson you won't forget!"
JonBenet tries to run away, but her pants are still around her knees. She tries to pull them up, but trips. As she gets up, Patsy grabs her collar and begins to struggle with her. She MEANS to toss JonBenet onto the bed face-first and spank the daylights out of her. But during the fight, JonBenet takes a hard blow that cracks her skull.
Patsy sees JonBenet crumpled on the floor.
PATSY: "That won't work, you little faker. You're in big trouble."
She picks JonBenet up and lays her on the bed. But she's so limp.
PATSY: "I said, cut it out."
Nothing. JonBenet is in shock and doesn't seem to be breathing.
PATSY (anger replaced by worry): "JonBenet Patricia Ramsey, you cut that out right now. Baby? (Now panicked): BABY?! PLEASE say something! Oh, GOD, I didn't mean to! No, oh, God, no! Not my baby!"
John comes in.
JOHN: "What the hell is going on in here?!"
Patsy turns. Her eyes are full of tears and hate. She blitzes him.
PATSY: "YOU BA*****!"
He grabs her wrists. "Are you crazy?!" He sees JonBenet. "What did you do?!"
PATSY: "Me?! You couldn't get it from me, so you took her! And I believed YOU!"
JOHN: "You stupid, crazy b****! I have to save her!"
PATSY: "It's too late now! She's dead!"
JOHN: "NO! That's impossible!" (Keep in mind, John's lost Beth.)
PATSY: "I'll see you rot for this!"
JOHN: "How?! You killed her."
Patsy fights until she's fought-out. She collapses to the floor, sobbing.
JOHN: "Honey..."
PATSY: "We can't leave her like this. She's so beautiful. like an angel. She deserves better."
JOHN: "I can't believe this. Burke...what will happen to him?"
PATSY: "He can't ever know about this. He can't think we killed JonBenet."
JOHN: "How do we make this right?"
PATSY: "I thought you were the big expert!"
JOHN: "Shut up! I'm trying to think."
PATSY: "What kind of person would do this?"
JOHN: "The kind we saw in the Navy. Damn, I wish I could remember who they were."
And it just spirals from there. Putting anything they can think of into a possible scenario, they stage a scene. But Patsy's dramatic flair puts it over the top. John, wracked with guilt, knows she hangs by a hair, so he says nothing. He also knows that the truth will put them in prison where the inmates will do horrible things to them...
PATSY: "What kind of knot do we use?"
JOHN: "Do it yourself."
Patsy ties a sloppy noose and sloppier wrist ties.
JOHN: "I can't even look at her like that."
They think about bundling her up to dump, but it's too risky. In the basement.
PATSY: "Wouldn't she have been messed with down there?"
JOHN: "Don't ask me to--"
PATSY: "You already DID! That's how we got into this mess."
JOHN: "I can't touch her like this." He uses the brush to avoid touching her privates. His fibers end up on her, having scuffed off his sleeve on her clothing when he pulls his arm back. "Can you write left-handed?"
PATSY: "Yeah, but--"
JOHN: "Come on."
John dictates part of the note, she writes. At this point, she's caught up in this. Her greatest pageant, her greatest adventure. It's exhilarating.

I did you a favor, Anti-K. You didn't have to pay to read it, like most people do.

Your simple RDI explanation fails in dramatic fashion because it does not explain the contradictory nature of the evidence. It doesn’t explain how they went from an accident to a fake kidnapping, how they decided to unnecessarily create self-incriminating evidence, etc and so on.

There are any number of RDI explanations and theories but I’m not asking for those. I’ve seen those. All of them are by necessity complex. A fake kidnapping explains why a body is not in the house but the body is in the house; there is no simple explanation for this, if RDI. If the body had been disposed of, we’d have a simple explanation for a fake kidnapping. But, the body is in the house. Etc, and so on.
...

AK

 

[CherCher]

I've skimmed Patsy's 06.24.98 interview, but I haven't found the reference you mentioned. Would you post the pertinent excerpt(s), please?

I'm having problems with cutting and pasting on my pc, but the pertinent excerpts are from the first part of the interview of the 24th, sections 0313 and 0314 of the transcript. Tom Haney was doing most of the questioning.

 

[InstantProof]

Your simple RDI explanation fails in dramatic fashion because it does not explain the contradictory nature of the evidence. It doesn’t explain how they went from an accident to a fake kidnapping, how they decided to unnecessarily create self-incriminating evidence, etc and so on.

There are any number of RDI explanations and theories but I’m not asking for those. I’ve seen those. All of them are by necessity complex. A fake kidnapping explains why a body is not in the house but the body is in the house; there is no simple explanation for this, if RDI. If the body had been disposed of, we’d have a simple explanation for a fake kidnapping. But, the body is in the house. Etc, and so on.
...

AK

It's a simple explanation that they couldn't or wouldn't remove her, so they hid her and presented a ransom note. They put her as far away in the house as they could without going outside. Does it make sense? For them it does, because they thought enough of themselves to think they just needed a little something to show that they weren't involved (a 3 page letter written on their pad with their pen) and they were right, it was enough.

 

[Mama2JML]

I'm having problems with cutting and pasting on my pc, but the pertinent excerpts are from the first part of the interview of the 24th, sections 0313 and 0314 of the transcript. Tom Haney was doing most of the questioning.

Thank you, CherCher.

From Patsy's 06.98 interview:

"12 THOMAS HANEY: Now, did you
13 normally come down that way in the morning?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
15 THOMAS HANEY: How do you normally
16 go back up?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Same way.
18 THOMAS HANEY: And I think you
19 indicated somewhere before that a lot of times
20 you would leave things --
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
22 THOMAS HANEY: -- on the steps
23 there?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
25 THOMAS HANEY: Okay. Like -- okay.
0314
1 Remind you, hey, next time you're going up, take
2 this up. Who would know or who would have seen
3 this practice?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Leaving the
5 staircase a lot and leaving things sitting out?
6 THOMAS HANEY: Yes.
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, the
8 housekeeper, certainly.
9 THOMAS HANEY: Okay. Who else?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: My mother, you know,
11 I see her a lot. Suzanne. I mean anybody that
12 was in the house.
13 THOMAS HANEY: Okay, on a regular
14 basis though?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, yeah.
16 THOMAS HANEY: So somebody pretty
17 familiar?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Right. Because I
19 wondered that -- I wondered, well, why didn't
20 they leave it on the first step, because I very
21 likely would have noticed it.
22 THOMAS HANEY: Okay. So, who you
23 know, because I would guess, maybe it is a
24 practice, you know, how would somebody choose to
25 leave it there?
0315
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Good question.
2 THOMAS HANEY: But somebody pretty
3 familiar or just lucky?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Maybe.
5 THOMAS HANEY: But if it was --
6 it's somebody who was around your house
7 regularly?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: They would know that
9 this was the staircase we most frequently used.
10 THOMAS HANEY: Okay, that that's
11 your habit?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
13 TRIP DeMUTH: Would they know
14 that's where you leave papers and what-have-you
15 to take upstairs? How often did you do that?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, pretty often.
17 I mean, John would come in from the garage, from
18 work, and leave things on the bar and then from
19 there, if he needed to take it to his desk and
20 stack 'em there and take 'em on up, you know.
21 We just left a lot of things there to be brought
22 up, coming down."​

​

 

[Meara]

Good work! Now why couldn't my word search find "stair" ??

 

[mochii]

Anti-K, with all due respect, I'm wondering why you are having such a hard time accepting theories on why RDI and all the things being tied to the home. We have many facts to go on, but as for the events that night we can only speculate (as nobody knows for sure).

It makes perfect sense why the note, the body, the weapon would all be in the house. As Dave said before, maybe they didn't dispose of the rope. Maybe it was the last bit? We know it was either the start or end from the glued tip. The Ramsey's didn't mean to make self-incriminating evidence. Now, I truly believe the whole ordeal started as a horrible accident. When you're panicking, you don't think straight. At all. Hormones and adrenaline are pumping through you like crazy. Maybe in the mess of things, the rope was plopped into the golfbag or somewhere out of sight ("oh ****, what do I do with the end of this rope? I'll put it here!" or again, maybe it was the last little bit of rope -- that'd explain the strange measurements).

The very bottom line is they didn't want the body gone. Or maybe they didn't want to get caught disposing of the body. They wanted the body for burial, period. The reason why all this -- this whole crime -- everything doesn't make sense is because it DOESN'T. It's so convuated and crazy (because IMO) the Ramseys completed winged it. They did what they could to cover the crime and make all signs point away from them. This is why things don't add up, because the whole thing was fabricated from the moment JB was hit on the head.

We have the RN to explain the dead body in the basement. You said before, what if there were no RN? How do you explain that to anyone? Can you imagine how silly THAT would sound. "Officer, I swear, we woke up and she was dead! We didn't hear anything, honest!". It's more contrived than the RN. They needed something to point away from them. If I may ask, why does this not make sense? If they just found JB dead inside, with no RN, and they call 911. What is gonna happen? They wrote the RN to deflect themselves away from the situation. Stage a kidnapping, a molestation (can be part of a motive for the kidnapping) , and hide the body.

If you ask me, it makes no sense that an intruder would use any tools within the house if they were staging/planning a kidnapping and/or murder.

I also want to note I don't necessarily believe that the sexual abuse with the paintbrush was done to hide prior abuse. I think it was definitely supposed to be apart of the staging. The alleged prior abuse may or may not be relevant to the murder (there is no way of saying for sure); this is something I am stil on the fence about and really can't form an opinion on.

AK, I don't want to be targeting or dogging on you, so I hope I am not coming across that way. I am only wondering what contradictions you are referring to and why you don't think the weapons/rope/etc. being found in the house refers to the possibility of an intruder or the Ramsey's not have been involved.

 

[Anti-K]

Anti-K, with all due respect, I'm wondering why you are having such a hard time accepting theories on why RDI and all the things being tied to the home. We have many facts to go on, but as for the events that night we can only speculate (as nobody knows for sure).

It makes perfect sense why the note, the body, the weapon would all be in the house. As Dave said before, maybe they didn't dispose of the rope. Maybe it was the last bit? We know it was either the start or end from the glued tip. The Ramsey's didn't mean to make self-incriminating evidence. Now, I truly believe the whole ordeal started as a horrible accident. When you're panicking, you don't think straight. At all. Hormones and adrenaline are pumping through you like crazy. Maybe in the mess of things, the rope was plopped into the golfbag or somewhere out of sight ("oh ****, what do I do with the end of this rope? I'll put it here!" or again, maybe it was the last little bit of rope -- that'd explain the strange measurements).

The very bottom line is they didn't want the body gone. Or maybe they didn't want to get caught disposing of the body. They wanted the body for burial, period. The reason why all this -- this whole crime -- everything doesn't make sense is because it DOESN'T. It's so convuated and crazy (because IMO) the Ramseys completed winged it. They did what they could to cover the crime and make all signs point away from them. This is why things don't add up, because the whole thing was fabricated from the moment JB was hit on the head.

We have the RN to explain the dead body in the basement. You said before, what if there were no RN? How do you explain that to anyone? Can you imagine how silly THAT would sound. "Officer, I swear, we woke up and she was dead! We didn't hear anything, honest!". It's more contrived than the RN. They needed something to point away from them. If I may ask, why does this not make sense? If they just found JB dead inside, with no RN, and they call 911. What is gonna happen? They wrote the RN to deflect themselves away from the situation. Stage a kidnapping, a molestation (can be part of a motive for the kidnapping) , and hide the body.

If you ask me, it makes no sense that an intruder would use any tools within the house if they were staging/planning a kidnapping and/or murder.

I also want to note I don't necessarily believe that the sexual abuse with the paintbrush was done to hide prior abuse. I think it was definitely supposed to be apart of the staging. The alleged prior abuse may or may not be relevant to the murder (there is no way of saying for sure); this is something I am stil on the fence about and really can't form an opinion on.

AK, I don't want to be targeting or dogging on you, so I hope I am not coming across that way. I am only wondering what contradictions you are referring to and why you don't think the weapons/rope/etc. being found in the house refers to the possibility of an intruder or the Ramsey's not have been involved.

The contradictions that I have been pointing out are all very clear. They are real. They exist. You can rationalize them by saying, oh, they were panicked, or they were inexperienced or they were stupid, etc; BUT, this doesn’t make the contradictions suddenly vanish.

I understand that some people – not all by any means, but some – say that the note explains the body in the basement but this is simply not true. If the body were not in the basement, and it was not in the home at all, then we could say that the ransom note explained that. That’s what ransom notes do – they explain why someone is no longer where they should be.

This shouldn’t be controversial or a point of contention. This remains true regardless of RDI or IDI.

There are some RDI who accept this (as everyone should; it’s 1 + 1; it’s b & w) and one of the ways they use to get around it is by saying that they did plan on eventually (after the police left, perhaps) disposing of the body, but something went wrong. Docg’s JDI theory is the most full developed example of an RDI rationalization of the note/body contradiction.

In fact the very obvious contradictory nature of this is one of the main reasons that investigators, et. al believed that the kidnapping was fake – kidnappers don’t leave their victims behind. You see, even with an IDI explanation the note/body is a contradiction.

In the case of RDI we know what the Ramseys should have been trying to do: explain a dead body in the house. A fake kidnapping contradicts that. The contradiction shouldn’t even be debateable. In the case of IDI, we don’t know what he was trying to do. The note/body is still a contradiction, but maybe this is want he wanted to create. We don’t know, BUT we can ignore that here, because I am trying to discuss this AS IF RDI were true.

Sorry, for the length and I know I didn’t answer a few of your questions/remarks. But, I suspect that we will be here for a while and opportunity will present itself...
...

AK

 

[mochii]

You are right, it is a contradiction. However, the RN/body is also an explanation. The two coincide. One does not exist without the other. This mainly works toward the RDI scenario, because if I've argued why wouldn't an intruder take the body or the RN with them when leaving? The fact it's a contradiction is completely irrelevant. In fact, it's why the RN is such a huge deal in the first place. With the RN & body in the basement (if RDI or IDI) it looks like something went awry during the attempted kidnapping. Let's sweep it under the rug, if you will. It's supposed to be right out of left field and make absolutely no sense. Hell, the FBI even said "this will end up as a homicide".

We can look at it one of two ways: RDI meant to dispose of the body later, after the police had left. Or, they always meant to find the body (either LE or someone else). I wish that -- like -- I'm trying to find the best way to explain it; but the only way I can say in layman's terms is the RN was just used to explain why. It doesn't matter where JB's body was; but the fact they go hand-in-hand together as I mentioned above. The RN was only there to explain why a child was dead. That's the only reason. I don't wanna sound like a broken record, but there was never a kidnapping in the first place. Something had to be done to explain the dire circumstances of the situation, thus the ransom note came into play.

What do you think, in lieu of a fake kidnapping, the Ramsey's should have done? (Aside from call the police after the headblow -- we have to assume JB is already dead at this point). To do a bit of roleplay here, what would you have done if you were in their shoes that night? Let's look at this from both POV: RDI and IDI.

 

[mochii]

Also, I am wondering if we should move this to a more appropriate topic as to not clutter up this thread focusing on Pat. Maybe here?

 

[Tawny]

People keep asking why didn't R's just say it was an accident, but we all know why. Because it wasn't an "accident". It may have been unintentional, but someone would have to be held responsible and it seems they couldn't bear to have their reputation as perfect people tarnished, even if it was just an "accident". They also realized, as evidenced by the vaginal trauma at the time of death, that the PRIOR ABUSE would be discovered, so they had to cover that up too, or risk everyone whispering behind their backs.

This isn't a complicated concept. It's quite simple. It was the RAMSEY'S who tried to make it look all complicated and convoluted.

Take away that ransom note and here comes the avalanche of questions, whispers, and rumors.

 

[mochii]

Precisely Tawny. I wrote in another thread that I believe Patsy may have had some less-than-stellar parenting methods. If they called 911 immeditaely, you have a huge internal investigation and CPS is involved. Burke could be taken away, someone could go to jail, John's business could be lost, all their assets, etc. etc. Did they want to be known as the family that hit their daughter over the head, causing her death? Or the family whose poor daughter was murdered?