Patsy Ramsey

[2 percent]

In this case, based upon the AR, vaginitis.

No. I've had vaginitis.
Doesn't erode the hymen, wasn't present in the autopsy (and would have been), the doctor that actually treated her for previous complaints not only didn't diagnose vaginitis, but didn't even look for it.

Panel of named medical experts v. unsourced FBI experts...not a hard choice.

 

[gramcracker]

Their books don't matter. It is their story to tell. Their dd was murdered. They get to tell their story. No one thinks it is going to be an unbiased account but their story of events.

AS for ex cops et al writing books that is a different thing altogether. They only can be motivated to write what will sell their books. They are motivated by ego and fame.

Thomas and Kolar have stated that their motivations were anger, sadness, frustration and heartbreak. good god, ST broke down in tears when he visited the former Ramsey home in Atlanta and saw BR's/JB's toddler/infant handprints preserved for all time in the patio concrete

Thomas left the BPD and forfeited or lost everything he'd worked for over the years, and decided that pounding nails was preferable to continuing as a LEO. Kolar spent his life savings to be able to devote his time to writing a book and paying to get it published. money can't buy what they lost during this investigation: peace of mind and pride in their profession

there are people in this case who are not motivated by ego and preserving/promoting their stature

 

[Mama2JML]

No. I've had vaginitis.
Doesn't erode the hymen, wasn't present in the autopsy (and would have been), the doctor that actually treated her for previous complaints not only didn't diagnose vaginitis, but didn't even look for it.

Panel of named medical experts v. unsourced FBI experts...not a hard choice.

Vaginitis: Inflammation of the vagina

Erosion: the superficial destruction of a surface area of tissue (as mucous membrane) by inflammation, ulceration, or trauma

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Thomas and Kolar have stated that their motivations were anger, sadness, frustration and heartbreak. good god, ST broke down in tears when he visited the former Ramsey home in Atlanta and saw BR's/JB's toddler/infant handprints preserved for all time in the patio concrete

Thomas left the BPD and forfeited or lost everything he'd worked for over the years, and decided that pounding nails was preferable to continuing as a LEO. Kolar spent his life savings to be able to devote his time to writing a book and paying to get it published. money can't buy what they lost during this investigation: peace of mind and pride in their profession

there are people in this case who are not motivated by ego and preserving/promoting their stature

It was ST first murder case. And he walked off. And he never worked a murder again. He had no experience with big cases and still doesn't.
He thought he knew everything and made a snap judgment.

Kolar's theories are from thin air and include a 9 yr old boy he was never a POI and I find his theories not backed up by evidence.
It certainly did not help this case.
This case comes down to something real and solid. The DNA says it was someone else. IT is clear it is overwhelming.

 

[otg]

Sorry, That source is not valid for me. He has an agenda.

Show me the real interview tape, or depo.. Other than that it is nothing more than a ST story for me.

Transcript:
[ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=9945"]Patsy Ramsey BDA interview - June 23, 1998 - Forums For Justice[/ame]


Part of the video of the exchange:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlxJRb5T_XM

And a bonus, just for you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfC5uO6qZho

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Transcript:
Patsy Ramsey BDA interview - June 23, 1998 - Forums For Justice


Part of the video of the exchange:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlxJRb5T_XM

And a bonus, just for you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfC5uO6qZho

Thank you. I did read that before.. It is not the actual information that I dispute it is the characterization of the behavior.

 

[gramcracker]

Thomas' IRMI/kindle location 4003

The following day the profilers had some pointed questions for the DA's staff. Why hadn't phone records been gathered? Damn good question, I thought. Why did everyone but the DA's office understand the importance of those documents? Only fifteen days before, Deputy DA DeMuth had rejected our affidavit to do just that, and now he said the police warrant "was **it."

Hofstrom chimed in, "Let's just ask the Ramseys for permission," a response that left the FBI agents incredulous. Many months would pass before we discoverd that the DA's office had not overridden the Ramsey attorneys' request to maintain an "island of privacy." Our prosecutors should have handed them a grand jury subpoena on the spot, demanding the records, and they never explained to us why they would not do so.

The FBI also wondered, since the police had not been offensive or confrontational in December 1996, why had the parents lawyered up so fast? Hofstrom answered that the attorneys only came aboard after "a police supervisor" had tried to "ransom the body" to get an interview. That was false, since Mike Bynum was giving advice and more lawyers and private investigators were being brought aboard long before the body became an issue.

An agent wanted to know why Patsy, who had volunteered to take ten polygraphs, had not been given the opportunity to do so. No one had an answer.

Did "anyone look good on the handwriting?" Detective Gosage said that of the dozens of people examined so far, Patsy Ramsey could not be eliminated as the author of the note. Deputy DA Hofstrom said handwriting analysis was an art, not a science, and had the gall to describe to disbelieving agents how "John and Patsy" had been invited into his own home to give a handwriting sample. They just stared at him.

Hofstrom then took the offensive, saying that if the police would bring the DA's office a case, they would look at it. It was Catch-22, and everyone there knew it, because how could we deliver a case while the same DA's office hindered our investigation?

The FBI encouraged the district attorney's representatives to convene a grand jury immediately and assist the police department. Get the Ramseys in there to testify under the hammer of perjury. Don't "ask the Ramseys" for anything, just issue the warrants and subpoenas and take the evidence. It should have been done long ago. The world is watching, and the right thing needs to be done. You have a responsibility, CASKU said. The language was blunt.

 

[gramcracker]

It was ST first murder case. And he walked off. And he never worked a murder again. He had no experience with big cases and still doesn't.

but it wasn't the FBI's first murder case, was it? and they were beaucoup gung ho re PR's guilt. saying that he never worked a murder again leans toward implying that he was judged incompetent to do so. the reality is that he chose to leave LE because he was too disheartened and disillusioned and discouraged to continue. LEOs are not robots, they are human beings with emotions and one case too many of blatant injustice can be the straw that breaks their spirit

a lot of ST's undercover drug cases were big cases and working those is quite dangerous. he wasn't a bumbling newbie, no matter how some would like to spin his experience. he was the records librarian/custodian in this case and was familiar at the molecular level with all of the nuances, politics, progress and lack of progress

Kolar, as well, had access to all 30,000+ pages and studied them minutely

the tDNA is 0.1% of the "evidence" and, I could be wrong, but I believe the standard for conviction is beyond a REASONABLE doubt not beyond ALL doubt

99.9% v 0.1% = a tip o' the scales - - > PDI

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

but it wasn't the FBI's first murder case, was it? and they were beaucoup gung ho re PR's guilt. saying that he never worked a murder again leans toward implying that he was judged incompetent to do so. the reality is that he chose to leave LE because he was too disheartened and disillusioned and discouraged to continue. LEOs are not robots, they are human beings with emotions and one case too many of blatant injustice can be the straw that breaks their spirit

a lot of ST's undercover drug cases were big cases and working those is quite dangerous. he wasn't a bumbling newbie, no matter how some would like to spin his experience. he was the records librarian/custodian in this case and was familiar at the molecular level with all of the nuances, politics, progress and lack of progress

Kolar, as well, had access to all 30,000+ pages and studied them minutely

the tDNA is 0.1% of the "evidence" and, I could be wrong, but I believe the standard for conviction is beyond a REASONABLE doubt not beyond ALL doubt

99.9% v 0.1% = a tip o' the scales - - > PDI

I don't see anything gung ho about the FBi saying the R's did it. Maybe in the beginning but not anymore. That DNA means something out in the real world. I don't see the FBI with the R's on their most wanted list.

 

[2 percent]

Vaginitis: Inflammation of the vagina

Erosion: the superficial destruction of a surface area of tissue (as mucous membrane) by inflammation, ulceration, or trauma

Again, have you had vaginitis? Not pleasant. Irritated, red mucosa that is extremely itchy. There are changes to the appearance, etc of the area. If she had had those very obvious symptoms the doctor would know and easily diagnose. The ME would see it...among other things. If you've had had it, you would know the infection is both internal and external - especially with those that have questionable hygiene.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Again, have you had vaginitis? Not pleasant. Irritated, red mucosa that is extremely itchy. There are changes to the appearance, etc of the area. If she had had those very obvious symptoms the doctor would know and easily diagnose. The ME would see it...among other things. If you've had had it, you would know the infection is both internal and external - especially with those that have questionable hygiene.

Not if it had cleared up. And she could have not only suffered adhesions or deterioration from it but she could have also damaged herself itching it or trying to relieve the pain and itching.

No one says there was questionable hygiene except the housekeeper. And all those she told. That does not make it so. No one at the pageants have said this, her dr, the school, no one has come out with this info except the hk.. The ME did not say she was dirty and unkempt. I think this is folk lore.

 

[2 percent]

Not if it had cleared up. And she could have not only suffered adhesions or deterioration from it but she could have also damaged herself itching it or trying to relieve the pain and itching.

No one says there was questionable hygiene except the housekeeper. And all those she told. That does not make it so. No one at the pageants have said this, her dr, the school, no one has come out with this info except the hk.. The ME did not say she was dirty and unkempt. I think this is folk lore.

And you don't think a child would be up front about itching? I have a girl. At 6 yrs old she would not be shy about her symptoms.

Are you aware of where the hymen is? Also that it would not be the target "itch" area? We are talking major penetration in one area...why would only one area itch...twice!?

Ok. So the standard is that if only one person says it (even if the ickiness under the fingernails corroborates), then it is folk lore? Remember that...

 

[Meara]

Originally Posted by ScarlettScarpetta
Sorry, That source [Steve Thomas] is not valid for me. He has an agenda.

Show me the real interview tape, or depo.. Other than that it is nothing more than a ST story for me.


otg:
Transcript:
Patsy Ramsey BDA interview - June 23, 1998 - Forums For Justice

Part of the video of the exchange:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlxJRb5T_XM

And a bonus, just for you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfC5uO6qZho



ScarlettScarpetta:
Thank you. I did read that before.. It is not the actual information that I dispute it is the characterization of the behavior.



:waitasec: Wait....didn't that goal post used to be over there?

 

[Venom]

Please don't try to say that cops write books and state things as facts that aren't facts. Especially when the cops actually worked the case. That's just not how things are. I'd think that cops who have seen the crime scene, evidence, sat for interviews, investigated leads just might know more facts about cases then us Monday morning detectives.

jmo

 

[otg]

:waitasec: Wait....didn't that goal post used to be over there?

You noticed that, huh? Ever read God's Little Acre?

 

[gramcracker]

No one says there was questionable hygiene except the housekeeper. And all those she told. That does not make it so. No one at the pageants have said this, her dr, the school, no one has come out with this info except the hk.. The ME did not say she was dirty and unkempt. I think this is folk lore.

when asked about the numerous Dr visits PR said that JB's toileting hygiene was sub-par, that she wiped carelessly (if at all) and that her panties were frequently wet with urine. not damp, wet. that information was offered by the mother. no details were asked for/given re fecal debris and skid marks

JB died on the 25th/26th and had not bathed since the 24th (and maybe not then IIRC, it was all very vague) although she did dress up and appeared well-groomed at the party. PR could not identify the last time the child washed her hands, and wasn't aware if she had done it before/after dinner at the White house. it would be the most natural thing in the world for a mother to say "she's not real good about doing it so I washed her hands before she ate cracked crab for dinner and/or I washed her hands (again) after she ate dinner. and/or: I washed her hands with a wet cloth while putting her to bed that night. nope. couldn't remember the last time her child's hands were cleaned. PR's words. according to the AR JB's fingernails were dirty, there was dirt/debris beneath the little gold ring she was wearing and her feet were dirty

:notgood:

 

[Venom]

I find it ironic that a book written by a cop whose agenda must be fame and money and who knows if things are facts or not is suddenly ok to be used to boost the DNA debate.

 

[gramcracker]

I don't see anything gung ho about the FBi saying the R's did it. Maybe in the beginning but not anymore. That DNA means something out in the real world. I don't see the FBI with the R's on their most wanted list.

per protocol, the feds ceded jurisdiction to BPD when the circumstances changed but remained available for advice/consultation. IMO there would have been a far different outcome had it remained an FBI case

 

[Meara]

There used to be a WSer who posted here and had the 2 unusual and identical letters that were in PR's handwriting and the RN handwriting as their icon or signature, can't remember which. You look at those 2 letters (and there were other examples as well), and tell me Ms. R didn't write that letter with a straight face.

Is this the sig you're thinking of CherCher, from River Rat's posts?

It starts appearing at post #11 on this thread:

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80015"]Has anyone ever seen the former Ramsey house in person? - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]


So sorry, I could not persuade the picture to cooperate in a copy/paste maneuver ) :

 

[Meara]

None. An indictment does not mean guilt. It does not mean much. Many people are indicted and found not guilty.

So sorry, I wasn't very clear. You had said, But in this case people have made patsy out to be a monster and there is just nothing to support it but rhetoric and fantasy. And I wondered whether your criticism extended to GJ testimony -- i.e., do you believe the GJ indictment was based only on rhetoric and fantasy?