Ping Map and Timeline for June 16, 2008 - Discuss that day only.

[Chilly Willy]

The same reason he would remember every little detail of what both of them were wearing.

Well, we don't know if he mentioned the phone call or not, or if he even reached Casey. Maybe he left a voice message - would that show up as phone call? 25 seconds would be an incredibly short phone call, especially if it was, as you seem to suspect, part of a murder cover-up.

 

[Elley Mae]

I doubt that Cindy spent much time in the back yard with no one around. George at work no Casey no Caylee.

 

[Themis]

The article RR004 linked says the phone is silent from 5:23 to 8:23, but as we can see, she was making lots of phone calls. :waitasec: I'm going to remove that information from the timeline for now.

I'll remove it too. Misinformation.

 

[faefrost]

Sociopaths don't plan ahead. They live in the moment to moment. When Caylee died, KC threw her straight into the trunk. Later put her in the backyard. Dogs alerted on both the backyard and the trunk.
Why did the As move a huge hibiscus bush in July, which would not be the optimum time for moving a delicate flowering bush. Should have moved the bush in February or March. KC backed the car in on Wednesday, the 18th.
LE should dig up that hibiscus bush.

Yes and no. They will not make meticulous plans about each step for several weeks. But they may decide to do something and determine the straightest path to it. The crime itself would not be so much a sudden act of emotion. Rather the Sociopath would make a decision, then simply work out how to get there and how to deal with it as they go along. There really is no rage or emotion involved. They make the decision to act (premeditation) then simply take each step one at a time to get there, and not really thinking beyond the imediate problem.

(at least thats how my old college roomate, now a forensic psychiatrist once explained it to me. If I remember it correctly.)

 

[Pink Panther]

Well, we don't know if he mentioned the phone call or not, or if he even reached Casey. Maybe he left a voice message - would that show up as phone call? 25 seconds would be an incredibly short phone call, especially if it was, as you seem to suspect, part of a murder cover-up.

No. I didn't say I suspected anything of the sort. I simply pointed out that he doesn't seem to have mentioned that call.

 

[CitizenKim]

All I see in JG's statement about the conversation on the 16th is that it was "not unnormal" to hear Caylee in the background "whenever" he talked to KC on the phone. He didn't seem to have any particular memory of hearing her that day. The thing he was really sure about was that he heard her on the 24th--but that's the one he backed off from later.

I think we should keep this in mind. If JG didn't hear Caylee on the 16th, she might have been dead before KC even returned to the house. Let's say they left the house 12:50 as GA says, and he didn't go to work until 2:30. KC wouldn't feel comfortable going back without leaving at least a little "cushion" of time to make sure GA was really gone. So did she really sit in the car around the corner for 2 hours before going back to the house? If so, did she run the A/C the whole time? Or maybe she parked somewhere, Caylee was napping in the car seat, KC wanted to talk to friends on the phone and didn't want to wake her up (because that would trigger annoying mommy duties), so KC got out of the car, leaving Caylee in the car seat in the heat...then discovers a little after 3 pm when she gets off the phone with JG that Caylee is unresponsive. KC rushes back to the house to see if she can revive her (but doesn't take Caylee's doll in with her given the circumstances), calls mommy the nurse when she can't wake Caylee up...but at some point realizes Caylee is too far gone and it is really HER FAULT so she will be in trouble with parents, police, etc., PLUS everyone will know she has no job...and since Caylee is dead anyway the best thing to do is cover it up.

What do you guys think? If I knew for sure there was a chloroform search pre-6/16, I might revise this theory to something more premeditated, though.

I think this makes a lot of sense. I wonder where her "hideout" was? I didn't realize that w/the heat kids could die in as little as 50 mins - I just found an article where that very thing happened. http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2008-08-06-hyperthermia-in-cars_N.htm

That baby didn't die immediately but was in serious distress. I wonder if Caylee was in heat stroke but barely alive when Casey came home and put the ladder back on the pool- trying to cool her down? Flurry of phone calls when this didn't work? Then Caylee didn't make it and Casey left her by the pool while she freaked out? :furious: There's the ladder explained as well as the cadaver hits in the bkyd.

 

[athy]

Casey was on the phone with Tony at that time. Can a person text while they're on a call? I think I'm the last person on earth who does not have a cell phone.

nope i don't have one either and don't want one. figure if i'm away from the house i don't want to be called. don't want a leash

 

[Chilly Willy]

Weird how GA calls out of the blue at 3:05 and the call is only 25 seconds?

Also I'm now kinda wondering if all the phone calls to CA weren't trying to get her to babysit that night so that her and TL could have cuddle up movie night alone. It just made me think back to the fired cops texts back and forth with KC and how she was desperatly trying to get a babysitter. Just thinking out loud folks! Just when I think I have it all figured out another theory jumps into my mind :crazy:

The problem I have with the 'trying to find a babysitter' idea is that Casey had already told George and, according to his interview, also Cindy, that she would be working and then spending the night at Zanny's with Caylee. When she left the house at 12:50, she already had plans and they did not include needing a sitter.

 

[Themis]

If these "electronic footprints" (as NG calls them) are accurate wouldn't it be difficult for the state to show premeditation? I'm trying to figure out how does one kill another with all of these phone calls and texts going on. Wouldn't she have needed a "slower" day if this was premeditated?

Also, I'm assuming JB park has been searched thoroughly?

This case is driving me crazy. Either LE's dates are off or KC is the most monstrous person in the world. It looks like she took a coffee break to kill her daughter.

Legally, the term premeditation means something very different than what you are thinking in your post. Legally, premeditation can happen in an instant. It is not a careful planning of every detail of a murder including a choice of weapon, time, place and disposal of the body. Premeditation is intending to do the act that results injures the other person whether or not death is the intended result.

 

[tiredofthis]

I think this makes a lot of sense. I wonder where her "hideout" was? I didn't realize that w/the heat kids could die in as little as 50 mins - I just found an article where that very thing happened. http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2008-08-06-hyperthermia-in-cars_N.htm

That baby didn't die immediately but was in serious distress. I wonder if Caylee was in heat stroke but barely alive when Casey came home and put the ladder back on the pool- trying to cool her down? Then Caylee didn't make it and Casey left her by the pool while she freaked out? :furious:

Makes a lot of sense.

 

[Themis]

Yes and no. They will not make meticulous plans about each step for several weeks. But they may decide to do something and determine the straightest path to it. The crime itself would not be so much a sudden act of emotion. Rather the Sociopath would make a decision, then simply work out how to get there and how to deal with it as they go along. There really is no rage or emotion involved. They make the decision to act (premeditation) then simply take each step one at a time to get there, and not really thinking beyond the imediate problem.

(at least thats how my old college roomate, now a forensic psychiatrist once explained it to me. If I remember it correctly.)

But, IIRC, the one emotion ASPDs do feel is anger and rage is an extreme of anger. So, could they not kill in a rage?

 

[Chilly Willy]

I think this makes a lot of sense. I wonder where her "hideout" was? I didn't realize that w/the heat kids could die in as little as 50 mins - I just found an article where that very thing happened. http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2008-08-06-hyperthermia-in-cars_N.htm

That baby didn't die immediately but was in serious distress. I wonder if Caylee was in heat stroke but barely alive when Casey came home and put the ladder back on the pool- trying to cool her down? Then Caylee didn't make it and Casey left her by the pool while she freaked out? :furious:

That makes sense, that Casey would put Caylee into the pool hoping to cool her off, but how would Caylee have gotten so overheated? Between 12:50 and 2:30, she and Casey were apparently together - where was Casey if Caylee was left in the closed car alone during that time?

 

[impatientredhead]

I think this makes a lot of sense. I wonder where her "hideout" was? I didn't realize that w/the heat kids could die in as little as 50 mins - I just found an article where that very thing happened. http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2008-08-06-hyperthermia-in-cars_N.htm

That baby didn't die immediately but was in serious distress. I wonder if Caylee was in heat stroke but barely alive when Casey came home and put the ladder back on the pool- trying to cool her down? Then Caylee didn't make it and Casey left her by the pool while she freaked out? :furious:

That doesn't explain the chloroform search and the chloroform in the trunk though?

Casey is such a liar I would *think* that if it was an accident she would have attempted to explain it away. If she really thought this ZFG story was going to fly, I cannot imagine that she couldn't come up with a reason Caylee dying of heat exhaustion or drowning was someone else's fault. Much better odds of handling it that way than this way. I think it was premediated.

 

[frenchvixen]

Sociopaths don't plan ahead. They live in the moment to moment. When Caylee died, KC threw her straight into the trunk. Later put her in the backyard. Dogs alerted on both the backyard and the trunk.
Why did the As move a huge hibiscus bush in July, which would not be the optimum time for moving a delicate flowering bush. Should have moved the bush in February or March. KC backed the car in on Wednesday, the 18th.
LE should dig up that hibiscus bush.

Then how is it premeditated (if sociopaths live from moment to moment)? I'm going to try to answer my own question. Was she planning on doing this for a while (chloroform searches) but was just waiting for the right time? She didn't necessarily plan it on the 16th but for some reason with her friends' upcoming trip to PR, fight with her mom, getting caught stealing again, not being able to find a babysitter to hangout with TL the "right" moment was on June 16th?

How will they prove her guilty mind (mens rea) then if she doesn't think like other people?

 

[newuser]

Ok - I thought from the early days something happened in the back yard, but then I got hung up on all the other info. I do think everyone is making it was too complicated. IF and I mean a big IF you believe GA about seeing them on the 16th, then I think they returned home after he left. KC probably was using the chloroform freely by this time, and laid the baby in the backyard while she did her calling and texting. When she got ready to leave, she couldn't wake her up - never even realizing the child was dead. She momentarily thought about making it look like an accident, thus the flurry of calls. THen, she just left Caylee in the playhouse and went on to TonE and to rent the movie. On the 18th, she thinks about her again, and goes to get her. Loads her in the trunk until the 27th.

Personally, I think she overdosed her on the night of the 15th, and the same scenario plays out, only with no GA. She goes to the house after he leaves, and just leaves Caylee in the playhouse and goes off to do whatever. She thinks Caylee is fine because she's in the A's yard and in her playhouse. Then, she goes back to get her on the 18th after thinking a bit.

This girl just is not all that deep in her though process.

 

[athy]

chilling thought, what if caylee was in the trunk after casey used the chloroform on her. and at the time we see her on the security tape at blockbusters...caylee was still in the trunk.

 

[Themis]

Then how is it premeditated (if sociopaths live from moment to moment)? I'm going to try to answer my own question. Was she planning on doing this for a while (chloroform searches) but was just waiting for the right time? She didn't necessarily plan it on the 16th but for some reason with her friends' upcoming trip to PR, fight with her mom, getting caught stealing again, not being able to find a babysitter to hangout with TL the "right" moment was on June 16th?

How will they prove her guilty mind (mens rea) then if she doesn't think like other people?

Premeditation can occur in an instant. But, remember, the crime charged involves aggravating factors of the death of a child under 12 years of age for Murder 1st degree. So, premeditation, in the classic sense is perhaps not necessary here since this is an aggravated circumstances Murder 1st degree.

 

[SailorMoon]

The problem I have with the 'trying to find a babysitter' idea is that Casey had already told George and, according to his interview, also Cindy, that she would be working and then spending the night at Zanny's with Caylee. When she left the house at 12:50, she already had plans and they did not include needing a sitter.

I'm thinking she would try Jesse for a sitter then Amy maybe??

 

[Themis]

chilling thought, what if caylee was in the trunk after casey used the chloroform on her. and at the time we see her on the security tape at blockbusters...caylee was still in the trunk.

I think that is accurate.

 

[Crabcake23]

Quote:
Originally Posted by RR0004
Well, we know that she was trying desperately to reach her parent around 4, right?

Yes. 4:00 p.m. June 16 plus 2.6 days is June 19, 6:14 a.m.

Yep. I'm thinking that she was killed between 3-4pm on the 16th.