Plane carrying 72 passengers and 9 crew has crashed in Colombia

[FindHG]

[video=youtube;3bbpTkFO_kc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bbpTkFO_kc[/video]

 

[emirates1957]

Yep definitely a coach/bus when you look at windows. Nice to see you emirates1957 sorry it's for another tragedy. I hope you and everyone have a great Christmas and New Year in 2017.

I know air travel is extremely safe but it doesn't make any accidents and loss of life any less upsetting. Thank you to you and Jax49 for answering my question above.

I wonder why they chose not to refuel in Bogota and to try and make the journey was it to save time or financial reasons? I feel so sad for everyone who has died, the pilot desperately trying to save the plane and the survivors. It must have been a horrendous scene onboard the plane in its final minutes.

When the plane ran out of fuel would it have acted the way it would in a stall situation?

Thank you Greg, wonderful to read your posts along with others. Do you have the transcript (being a bit lazy). Briefly heard one of our Engineers say that it descended rapidly from 20,000 FT to 10,000 FT. At work at the moment and have been off sick (so in catch up mode)....anything you can flick over would be fantastic or send a PM and I can get the guys to pick over it.

 

[FindHG]

[video=youtube;Z4ygRb52ivA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4ygRb52ivA[/video]

 

[FindHG]

[video=youtube;HlPWo66UESI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlPWo66UESI[/video]

I can't find it again, but saw somewhere on MSM that one of the players who survived had to have his leg amputated.

 

[Hatfield]

"Just six people survived and today some of them have been speaking for the first time about the moments before impact.

Crew member Erwin Tumiri told how passengers were left terrified as the plane began to plummet to the ground.

He said: "I saved myself because I followed the emergency protocol, putting bags between my legs and put myself in the fetal position.

"I also saw how many passengers rose and began to scream."

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/colombia-plane-crash-chapecoense-brazil-9363639

Re BBM

Not that I ever want to be in that situation but he brings up a great point that I have never heard before. If you know you are going down for sure I think I am going to start grabbing soft luggage bags from the overhead and surround myself with it as much as possible. Basically try to put myself in a cocoon of luggage.

I am sure if there are others seated next to me they may not let me do that but I may be able to convince them that they need a cocoon too.

Seems like a great idea though. I suspect the luggage the gentleman put down near his legs may have helped him survive.

 

[CARIIS]

Re BBM

Not that I ever want to be in that situation but he brings up a great point that I have never heard before. If you know you are going down for sure I think I am going to start grabbing soft luggage bags from the overhead and surround myself with it as much as possible. Basically try to put myself in a cocoon of luggage.

I am sure if there are others seated next to me they may not let me do that but I may be able to convince them that they need a cocoon too.

Seems like a great idea though. I suspect the luggage the gentleman put down near his legs may have helped him survive.

When we look at the wreckge there is a whole segment that appears to have remained intact.

I would venture to say that is where the survivors were. The only real thing that matters is throughout the accident sequence is are you in surivable space in terms of room.

If you are luggage may soften some stuff- but would be basically non menaingful if you were located where there was total loss of structural integrity.

just mo

 

[CARIIS]

[video=youtube;HlPWo66UESI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlPWo66UESI[/video]

I can't find it again, but saw somewhere on MSM that one of the players who survived had to have his leg amputated.

He did I thought that was so awful

 

[CARIIS]

Hate to say this but I think this is gonna come out to be pilot error. Its the crews responsiblity to very clearly declare an emergency.

Thus far it sounds as if they did not formally do so. They circled quite awhile before impact.

The pilot owned the airline.

 

[Hatfield]

Still catching up on this so exuse my ignorance if this has already been covered. Headlines never cease to amaze me, they can't have it both ways, lack of fuel and or electrical problem. If they were so close to the airport and had thunderies in the area you would want sufficient fuel in order to go around, or return to an alternate....no reason do dump as you would have already used your max fuel in order for a min fuel landing. If they had taken off had let's say had a severe electrical failure they would need to dump fuel and return to the originating airport. It would be interesting to get a dummy Trim Sheet to be able to ascertain the weights of an high male pax count on board this type of equipment.

Re BBM

Hello Emirates. Sorry to meet again with another plane accident. We are glad your expertise can be queried again though.

Was wondering if maybe they were getting electric failure from the lack of fuel shutting down the engines.

If the engines started to stutter and fail then would all the instruments and electrical components shut off when engines dont run?

Was wondering if maybe the electrical issue was related to the engines failing.

 

[Hatfield]

When we look at the wreckge there is a whole segment that appears to have remained intact.

I would venture to say that is where the survivors were. The only real thing that matters is throughout the accident sequence is are you in surivable space in terms of room.

If you are luggage may soften some stuff- but would be basically non menaingful if you were located where there was total loss of structural integrity.

just mo

Hello Cariis.,
You are probably right. No matter how much luggage you surrounded yourself with if you were in the part of the plane that became just pieces then you and the luggage would end up in pieces.

Thanks for bringing me back to reality. Although I think I would still try to put myself in a cocoon of luggage. Just to feel like it may work and give me hope on the way down.

 

[CARIIS]

Yep definitely a coach/bus when you look at windows. Nice to see you emirates1957 sorry it's for another tragedy. I hope you and everyone have a great Christmas and New Year in 2017.

I know air travel is extremely safe but it doesn't make any accidents and loss of life any less upsetting. Thank you to you and Jax49 for answering my question above.

I wonder why they chose not to refuel in Bogota and to try and make the journey was it to save time or financial reasons? I feel so sad for everyone who has died, the pilot desperately trying to save the plane and the survivors. It must have been a horrendous scene onboard the plane in its final minutes.

When the plane ran out of fuel would it have acted the way it would in a stall situation?

Jets with swept back wings are amazing gliders. It looks , from wreckage, that the plane was in control at impact, so I would guess, it was less traumatic than a flat out stall which is a mortifing experience.

I would venture to say that if they were not in mountains it might have had a better outcome.

just mo

Hi there Snoods.....just had one of our Engineers have a quick look.....he said it appears to be a bus.

oh come on media a jetliner a bus come on!!

Kinda sounds like the engine that provides electrical flamed out early in the sequence resulting in the intial tranmission being about electronic issues.

Why that did result in a declaration of emergency is somewhat baffling.

Then I saw this from earlier post

It has been reported that the pilot was told that another aircraft had asked for landing priority because of its own on board problems.
The second aircraft was given permission to land while the jet carrying the Brazilian footballers was told to circle at 21,000ft, putting it third or fourth in line to land, according to local media.

Rescuers had to hike for more than half an hour to reach the site.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...per-survivor-leg-amputated.html#ixzz4RYshAC3W
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

BUT if declared he would not have remained 4th in cue down.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...per-survivor-leg-amputated.html#ixzz4RYrCvLY4
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

 

[gregjrichards]

Hi emirates1957 thanks for your reply I found this on the CNN website.

Cockpit transcript

"One of the crew members, his voice reflecting growing concern, sends an urgent message to air traffic controllers at the Colombian airport.

"Miss, Lima-Mike-India 2933 it's in failure, uh, total... electrical and fuel [failure]."
Less than 30 seconds later, the crew was back in touch with a frantic call for directions to line up for the approach to the runway.

Pilot: Lima-Mike India... vectors! Vectors, miss! Vectors to the runway!
But the jet's radar signal was lost, leaving the air traffic controller blindly directing the pilot to safety.

Controller: Direction... turn left 010 and proceed to the Rio Negro localizer 1 mile ahead of the border. At the moment, you're located, correct, I'm confirming going left with direction 350.

Pilot: Left 350.

Controller: Yes, correct. You're at zero-point-one miles to the Rio Negro border. I don't have your altitude, Lima-Mike-India.

Pilot: 9,000 feet, miss. Vectors, vectors!

Controller: You're 8.2 miles to the runway. What's your altitude now?

Silence

The CNN Instagram page has drone video of the crash site which gives you an idea of how the plane crashed.

Thanks CARIIS for your reply too.

 

[emirates1957]

Hate to say this but I think this is gonna come out to be pilot error. Its the crews responsiblity to very clearly declare an emergency.

Thus far it sounds as if they did not formally do so. They circled quite awhile before impact.

The pilot owned the airline.

Agree CARIIS....going down as pilot error. Never knew the Pilot owned the airline.

 

[emirates1957]

Hi emirates1957 thanks for your reply I found this on the CNN website.

Cockpit transcript

"One of the crew members, his voice reflecting growing concern, sends an urgent message to air traffic controllers at the Colombian airport.

"Miss, Lima-Mike-India 2933 it's in failure, uh, total... electrical and fuel [failure]."
Less than 30 seconds later, the crew was back in touch with a frantic call for directions to line up for the approach to the runway.

Pilot: Lima-Mike India... vectors! Vectors, miss! Vectors to the runway!
But the jet's radar signal was lost, leaving the air traffic controller blindly directing the pilot to safety.

Controller: Direction... turn left 010 and proceed to the Rio Negro localizer 1 mile ahead of the border. At the moment, you're located, correct, I'm confirming going left with direction 350.

Pilot: Left 350.

Controller: Yes, correct. You're at zero-point-one miles to the Rio Negro border. I don't have your altitude, Lima-Mike-India.

Pilot: 9,000 feet, miss. Vectors, vectors!

Controller: You're 8.2 miles to the runway. What's your altitude now?

Silence

The CNN Instagram page has drone video of the crash site which gives you an idea of how the plane crashed.

Thanks CARIIS for your reply too.

Much appreciated......I'll wait until some of the guys come through the crew room tomorrow and see what their opinion is. Thanks again.....and a SAFE and Merry Xmas as well.

 

[emirates1957]

Re BBM

Hello Emirates. Sorry to meet again with another plane accident. We are glad your expertise can be queried again though.

Was wondering if maybe they were getting electric failure from the lack of fuel shutting down the engines.

If the engines started to stutter and fail then would all the instruments and electrical components shut off when engines dont run?

Was wondering if maybe the electrical issue was related to the engines failing.

Thanks Hadfield.....I have trouble copying and pasting your the ones that come up the data. And what a shame to meet again, considering by the sounds of it could have been avoided.

I could come up with a few answers however I could confirm they would be exact therefore I will leave it for the boys tomorrow. Bring on the questions.

I also wonder whether the Captain called the cabin to 'BRACE' for an emergency. If so like the other gent who assumed the brace position perhaps more lives could have been saved.

 

[emirates1957]

Hello Cariis.,
You are probably right. No matter how much luggage you surrounded yourself with if you were in the part of the plane that became just pieces then you and the luggage would end up in pieces.

Thanks for bringing me back to reality. Although I think I would still try to put myself in a cocoon of luggage. Just to feel like it may work and give me hope on the way down.

Problem is with loose luggage unsecured is like a missile when met with impact. Better option maybe pillows albeit very thin.

 

[CARIIS]

I just heard the english translation of the last transmissions -- he was, actually, clearly making it known that he needed his bird on concrete.



What the h#ll was ATC doing??

Where I am getting confused is circling? Why wouls you circle if you are in a fuel staravation deal? It makes no sense.

One would also think that a connection would have been made to the primary electrical source (engine # whatever) failing. One would know, I would ink , the reason for the flameout - fuel.

Something is not "linear" here. They know what engine produces their primary source of electricity.

It seems as if we are missing one important piece of information, but that Radar 24 thing clearly has them circling.

I am going to try and find out how many hours they all had - if anyone comes across this would pls post TIA


They will be able to determine if any engine was producing power at time of impact- depends on what is inside engine and if the turbine blades are damaged as it relates to spinning at impact.

 

[gregjrichards]

Much appreciated......I'll wait until some of the guys come through the crew room tomorrow and see what their opinion is. Thanks again.....and a SAFE and Merry Xmas as well.

Thank you. I really appreciate you taking the time to ask your colleagues opinion.

I forgot to add the link for the CNN cockpit transcript http://edition.cnn.com/2016/11/30/americas/colombia-plane-crash-recordings/

 

[CARIIS]

Re BBM

Hello Emirates. Sorry to meet again with another plane accident. We are glad your expertise can be queried again though.

Was wondering if maybe they were getting electric failure from the lack of fuel shutting down the engines.

If the engines started to stutter and fail then would all the instruments and electrical components shut off when engines dont run?

Was wondering if maybe the electrical issue was related to the engines failing.

Hi Hat,

Yes very clearly !! The circling is driving me bonkers and I am already bonkers!!!

 

[CARIIS]

Thank you. I really appreciate you taking the time to ask your colleagues opinion.

I forgot to add the link for the CNN cockpit transcript http://edition.cnn.com/2016/11/30/americas/colombia-plane-crash-recordings/

Ah ha- Greg this helped -- (got all of it !) maybe it was not circling in the traditional sense. Maybe He lost his nav equipment due to fuel starvation on the engine that provides primary electric.

Missing the vectors is electricity ............... they are like specific points an aircraft must go over, and report when they do - so it seems the circling might be about trying, again, to hit vectors.

So the circling might actually translate to "lost" as it relates to the runway - as opposed to circling as if by choice????

Avianca Airlines co-pilot Juan Sebastian Upegui said he was listening to the radio as he watched the jet pass to the side of his plane "going downwards, fast as s---t," according to the recording.
"We even saw the plane lights as it was going down," he said, recalling the crew member's cries: "'We now have total electrical failure! We now have total electrical failure! Coordinates to proceed to the runway!'"

You have to have power to enter the coordinates.

The ironies of it being an Avianca pilot are profound (more later) getting tired!!

Throw in no clear direction from ATC, some weather and ......................

Sky news