POI: Michael Pak

[Tugela]

For example, read here

On Page 2:

Agitated (excited) delirium

Patients presenting with agitated delirium, also known as excited delirium, are at high risk for sudden death, with a fatality rate of approximately 10%.[14] Agitated delirium is a common presentation in patients dying from cocaine toxicity. Of cocaine-associated deaths investigated by the Medical Examiner's Department of Metropolitan Dade County, Florida, between 1979 and 1990, excited delirium was the terminal event in approximately 1 of every 6 fatalities. Patients with excited delirium had an immediate onset of bizarre and violent behavior, which included aggression, combativeness, hyperactivity, hyperthermia, extreme paranoia, unexpected strength, and/or incoherent shouting. All of these were followed by cardiorespiratory arrest.[13]

Sound familiar?

 

[genericwhitemale]

I've been out of the loop on this particular subject. Have you guys been able to track down MP's whereabouts as of yet?

 

[Samantha Spade]

Then if brewer or pak would have given 911 her location, emt's might have been able to save her life.

 

[fred&edna]

For example, read here

On Page 2:



Sound familiar?

I thought I'd do a little more reading on the subject and found:

http://exciteddelirium.org/WetliMashED1996.pdf

It really caught my eye when I noticed it is associated with retired Suffolk Co Medical Examiner Charles V. Wetli, MD.
Appears he was the primary contributor/writer.


"In the early stages of the disorder, victims are hyperther-
mic and grossly psychotic, with marked physical agitation.
They often perform amazing feats of strength, particularly
after citizens or police attempt to restrain them. Shortly after
being restrained, agitation ceases and the victim is fre-
quently found dead, or near death, just moments later."

"... The clinical presentation of agitated psychotic cocaine
abusers is quite different from that of nonpsychotic cocaine
abusers with sudden death or massive drug overdose. The
psychotic cocaine users are almost always men, they are
more likely to die in custody, and they are more likely to live
for 1 hour after onset of symptoms. "

 

[LINative13]

Yes, especially since Google and BING aerials from before May 2010 actually show a path from the brush on the OP side down into the area near the tree where SG ended up and it continued further down into the brush.

Ive seen that trail in person. It does exist. You would drive right by it if you were not looking for it. If she was in fact brought in there via the highway; it would change alot for me in would push me to lean towards SG being related to GB4. It would also drive home the FACT that whoever is/was putting bodies there is someone who was/is a local who spent significant time down by the beaches. Thus relinquishing my belief that MP killed her.

That is all.

 

[WINDSOR]

Tugela, I think you can be pretty sure recreational drug users like SG do not take pills or tablets "Tablets, they dissolute over time, peak exposure typically is 2-4 hours after ingestion. So, if you ODed on that, it could take that long for maximum effect to kick in."

Most drug users want the effect asap.

You also present the example of a cocaine overdose as an example of SG's behavior. The problem being is when did SG take this lethal dose of cocaine, before the 23 minute phone call with 911, where LE has described her as calm, or after the 911 call when she had left JB's and was running from MP?

She did not display the cocaine od symptoms during the phone call. So when and where did she get the od?


MOO

 

[deedee21]

Does anyone know the protocol an operator is suppose to take if the caller does not know quite where they are?

 

[Samantha Spade]

Deedee, I do not. And I understand how difficult it can be to trace a phone in that particular area, especially if it is an unregistered burner. so I give 911 a little slack for not getting a radio car there that night. BUT Mr. Coletti did call police and give a location and a description of a woman saying help me.
How much searching and interviewing did police do in those early morning hours, and if not much, then why not? Did they knock on Brewer's door that morning? Mr. Coletti had stated that the driver searching for Shannan had mentioned a party at Brewers. Had someone told police everything was under control?
There should be a police report of this. right? should be.

How long did it take to connect Shannan's 911 call to Coletti's call?

So many questions. And I didn't even know Shannan. I cannot even imagine how frustrated her sisters and Mother must feel. oh, and of course Diaz and Pak.

 

[WINDSOR]

Back to 6:07AM May1, 2010.

An officer arrives at the Oak Beach gate entrance. No doubt GC identifies himself and fills the officer in on the what happened and why he GC called 911. Those of you with LE experience (Hawksaw) can help me here.

What would the officer likely do when GC said SG ran off after GC called 911?
Would the officier drive around and look for signs of SG?
Would he go see BB the source of the other 911 call?
Would he visit Brewer where GC was told a party took place?
Did the officer call for back-up when he knew this call was based on death threats, and the potential victim was not to be found?

Is there any way we could see that officers report of that morning.

I cannot believe LE just spoke to GC and BB, drove around the area and left.

I would hate to think if I called 911,saying someone was trying to kill me, in my neighborhood, when LE arrive if they could not find me they would just leave and forget about it.

What was the followup, how much effort was expended to find SG that morning? Did the officer look into the direction of the swamp? Did he see anything moving?

After three different 911 calls regarding a woman in fear for her life, how much effort was expended in trying to find SG. I certainly hope it was more than one lone officer.


MOO

 

[fred&edna]

Back to 6:07AM May1, 2010.

An officer arrives at the Oak Beach gate entrance. No doubt GC identifies himself and fills the officer in on the what happened and why he GC called 911. Those of you with LE experience (Hawksaw) can help me here.

What would the officer likely do when GC said SG ran off after GC called 911?
Would the officier drive around and look for signs of SG?
Would he go see BB the source of the other 911 call?
Would he visit Brewer where GC was told a party took place?
Did the officer call for back-up when he knew this call was based on death threats, and the potential victim was not to be found?

Is there any way we could see that officers report of that morning.

I cannot believe LE just spoke to GC and BB, drove around the area and left.

I would hate to think if I called 911,saying someone was trying to kill me, in my neighborhood, when LE arrive if they could not find me they would just leave and forget about it.

What was the followup, how much effort was expended to find SG that morning? Did the officer look into the direction of the swamp? Did he see anything moving?

After three different 911 calls regarding a woman in fear for her life, how much effort was expended in trying to find SG. I certainly hope it was more than one lone officer.


MOO

I'm not LE nor hawk, but I'm pretty sure the responding officer (nor anyone else in the dept) knew the calls from GC and BB were related to SG's 911 call until quite some time later.

But, I like all your questions

 

[WINDSOR]

I'm not LE nor hawk, but I'm pretty sure the responding officer (nor anyone else in the dept) knew the calls from GC and BB were related to SG's 911 call until quite some time later.

But, I like all your questions

Thanks Fred and Edna. The 911 dispatcher would have to know all three calls were related. Its Suffolk County, its before sunrise. 911 gets a call from a woman who is fearing for her life, and only knows she is in a beach area. Then 911 gets two more calls from residents in Oak Beach, about a woman who is in fear for her life.

How many 911 calls came in to SCPD between 3:00AM and 6:00AM that morning, about a woman fearing for her life at a beach front community.

If 911 dispatch did not know they were related why was a separate police car sent for each call? Separate 911 calls get separate responses.

BTW I wish I was better at the answers than the questions.

MOO

 

[fred&edna]

Thanks Fred and Edna. The 911 dispatcher would have to know all three calls were related. Its Suffolk County, its before sunrise. 911 gets a call from a woman who is fearing for her life, and only knows she is in a beach area. Then 911 gets two more calls from residents in Oak Beach, about a woman who is in fear for her life.

How many 911 calls came in to SCPD between 3:00AM and 6:00AM that morning, about a woman fearing for her life at a beach front community.

If 911 dispatch did not know they were related why was a separate police car sent for each call? Separate 911 calls get separate responses.

BTW I wish I was better at the answers than the questions.

MOO

There was a video where Dormer said they didn't know GC's call was related to SG's call. I will try to find a link.

The sad thing is, I think that since SG couldn't tell them her location they couldn't?didn't do anything about her call expect keep it on record.

I know how you feel! I wish I was better at the answers, too Windsor.

 

[deedee21]

There was a video where Dormer said they didn't know GC's call was related to SG's call. I will try to find a link.

The sad thing is, I think that since SG couldn't tell them her location they couldn't?didn't do anything about her call expect keep it on record.

I know how you feel! I wish I was better at the answers, too Windsor.

SG mother said her daughters phone had a GPS and they could have found her. I was wondering if the police attempted to do that.

 

[fred&edna]

I can't find a link to the video I mentioned above (and it's possible I'm wrong about seeing Dormer say this). But I did find the info reported in the Disappeared "Footprints In The Sand" episode. I think it wasn't until SG's family gave the police the phone records that they put SG's missing report together with the calls. The youtube video appears to be a "condensed" version... it is not the same as what I have on my Amazon acct.

 

[WINDSOR]

I am not out to chastize the LE at all, and maybe I am giving them more credit than due.

If as Dormer reportedly said that SCPD did not know that the SG call was related to the GC call, what did they do about the SG call, just forget about it?


I am starting to get the feeling LE sent one car with one officer to Oak Beach, and did not give any of the calls any importance, more of a courtesy response.

That is scary.

MOO

 

[Redbird]

One unit responded, advised they could not find the subject, requested additional resources, which ultimately were denied by the county as per the depts protocol. At the next tour a k-9 officer was dispatched in an attmept to track a scent that was 4-5 hours old, which also meant if SG was wandering aimlessly she would have a 4-5 hour head start. Eventually the aviation section came in and was dispatched. They flew around and saw nothing. 5-6 hours later. The officer wrote a field report. This is information paraphrased from the Schwarz Report which is a forum for LE.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

One unit responded, advised they could not find the subject, requested additional resources, which ultimately were denied by the county as per the depts protocol. At the next tour a k-9 officer was dispatched in an attmept to track a scent that was 4-5 hours old, which also meant if SG was wandering aimlessly she would have a 4-5 hour head start. Eventually the aviation section came in and was dispatched. They flew around and saw nothing. 5-6 hours later. The officer wrote a field report. This is information paraphrased from the Schwarz Report which is a forum for LE.

So, the couldn't see her from the air?

 

[Redbird]

So, the couldn't see her from the air?

NO. And if her body was there they should have been able to see it.

 

[Tugela]

Tugela, I think you can be pretty sure recreational drug users like SG do not take pills or tablets "Tablets, they dissolute over time, peak exposure typically is 2-4 hours after ingestion. So, if you ODed on that, it could take that long for maximum effect to kick in."

Most drug users want the effect asap.

You also present the example of a cocaine overdose as an example of SG's behavior. The problem being is when did SG take this lethal dose of cocaine, before the 23 minute phone call with 911, where LE has described her as calm, or after the 911 call when she had left JB's and was running from MP?

She did not display the cocaine od symptoms during the phone call. So when and where did she get the od?


MOO

Actually, they do. Apparently cocaine users also take opiates at the same time to moderate the effect of the coke, and that usually is in pill form.

You are assuming that OD symptoms are immediate.

You need to read the symptoms again. With those someone in the throes of of an OD would obviously be able to do the things described.

Here are some more extracts from that web link:

Between 30% and 60% of individuals who take cocaine combine it with alcohol. Clinical data indicate that the concurrent use of alcohol and cocaine is associated with increased mortality and morbidity from cardiovascular complications, hepatotoxicity, and behaviors leading to personal injury. In 74% of cocaine-related fatalities in the United States, another drug, usually ethanol, had been co-ingested. The addition of alcohol to cocaine increases the risk of sudden death 25-fold.

The increased risk from the concomitant alcohol use is enhanced by the formation of a third active compound of toxicologic importance, namely, ethylbenzoylecgonine, commonly known as cocaethylene. Although its behavioral pharmacology and psychomotor stimulant effects are similar to those of cocaine, its toxicity is greater. The plasma half-life of cocaethylene is longer than that of cocaine, and inferential evidence suggests that the lethal dose to kill 50% of subjects (LD50) is lower.

Although most cocaine metabolism involves serum cholinesterase, some of the drug is metabolized in the liver by carboxylesterases. In the presence of alcohol, a nonspecific carboxylesterase catalyses ethyl transesterification of cocaine to cocaethylene. Cocaine is the rate-limiting substrate in this reaction. Cocaethylene can be detected in urine and blood within 100 minutes after a person uses alcohol and intranasal cocaine. Whereas the half-life of cocaine is approximately 40 minutes, the half-life of cocaethylene is 2.5 hours, which may explain why cocaine-related symptoms can continue for some time after cocaine is last used.

In dog studies, cocaethylene was a more potent precipitant of convulsions and cause of lethality than cocaine. This is probably because cocaethylene blocks sodium channels more potently than cocaine. Although the toxic level of cocaethylene in humans is not known, the LD50 in mice was 93 mg/kg for cocaine versus 60 mg/kg for cocaethylene. The process of cocaethylene formation continues for several hours, which may explain why sudden deaths may occur 6-12 hours after cocaine ingestion.

So, basically, your notions of how long this would take are wrong.

 

[Redbird]

Do you have any links to prove she was taking drugs that night or that she ever used opiates.