POI: Michael Pak

[WINDSOR]

Peter said,

Fine he would have needed about 6 minutes to subdue her. But you left in your "timeline" no room for him to turn his car around and find SG. But if you say only about 5 minutes more for that, and that would be a very short estimation by all means, he would have eleven minutes.

Peter what I said......... MP would have needed a total of six minutes to catch, subdue and leave Oak Beach, not eleven minutes
3 minutes to catch and subdue.
1 minute to reach gate by vehicle
2 minutes to raise gate and leave.

For a total of six minutes.

The factor you are forgetting in your equations for comparing GC speed and SG’s speed of traveling is start times. This is crucial; before GC left his house to walk to the gate house did GC change his shoes, put a jacket on, lock the house, or turn out the lights in bathroom? These all could have delayed his walk to the gate house. Even if GC ran all the way, if he leaves 5 to 10 minutes after MP catches up to SG, he would have not seen MP leave.

Without knowing the start times it is impossible to compare arrival times.

The problem is now we are getting is conflicting information, now reports of LE arriving at 5:32am ( I do not believe the 5:32am time is correct) and GC’s call was after BB who called at 5:22am. This makes no sense as there is no way police could respond to BB’s phone call in 10 minutes.

GC only went to the gate house after his 911call. He had no idea anybody else called. So therefore he could be only responding to his own call when he went to the gate to let LE in.

My opinion is that GC called 911 before BB called, and then he went to the gate house to let LE in. It is my opinion because of the distances involved; LE arrived around 6:00am, possibly the 6:07am that has been stated.

If MP caught SG at 5:25am, three minutes after BB called 911, he could have exited Oak Beach quite easily by 5:31-5:35am. If GC arrived after 5:36am, he would not have seen MP leave.

The point I am making without knowing the exact time of GC’s 911call and the exact time GC arrived at the gate, we are in a knowledge vacuum.

Can anybody, maybe ps149 can help, please give the following times.

1) Official time of GC 911 call
2) Official time of BB 911 call
3) Time of GC’s arrival at gate to allow LE in.
4) Official Time of LE arrival at Oak Beach gate
When we have this information we can accurately calculate if MP had time to abduct SG, or not.


For those who believe MP could not be involved in SG'd death because he did not leave his home for months after. Most criminals do not leave ther homes after committing crimes. Some maintain the same residence for decades.

MOO

 

[Samantha Spade]

@Vivalor,
Welcome pretty lady!
I suggest you keep a glass of water and some advil close to you and your keyboard at all times.
Xanax helps too, but it can be addictive. Especially here discussing THIS case.
Carry on fellow sleuther.

 

[Peter Brendt]

Peter said,

Fine he would have needed about 6 minutes to subdue her. But you left in your "timeline" no room for him to turn his car around and find SG. But if you say only about 5 minutes more for that, and that would be a very short estimation by all means, he would have eleven minutes.

Peter what I said......... MP would have needed a total of six minutes to catch, subdue and leave Oak Beach, not eleven minutes
3 minutes to catch and subdue.
1 minute to reach gate by vehicle
2 minutes to raise gate and leave.

For a total of six minutes.

The factor you are forgetting in your equations for comparing GC speed and SG’s speed of traveling is start times. This is crucial; before GC left his house to walk to the gate house did GC change his shoes, put a jacket on, lock the house, or turn out the lights in bathroom? These all could have delayed his walk to the gate house. Even if GC ran all the way, if he leaves 5 to 10 minutes after MP catches up to SG, he would have not seen MP leave.

Without knowing the start times it is impossible to compare arrival times.

The problem is now we are getting is conflicting information, now reports of LE arriving at 5:32am ( I do not believe the 5:32am time is correct) and GC’s call was after BB who called at 5:22am. This makes no sense as there is no way police could respond to BB’s phone call in 10 minutes.

GC only went to the gate house after his 911call. He had no idea anybody else called. So therefore he could be only responding to his own call when he went to the gate to let LE in.

My opinion is that GC called 911 before BB called, and then he went to the gate house to let LE in. It is my opinion because of the distances involved; LE arrived around 6:00am, possibly the 6:07am that has been stated.

If MP caught SG at 5:25am, three minutes after BB called 911, he could have exited Oak Beach quite easily by 5:31-5:35am. If GC arrived after 5:36am, he would not have seen MP leave.

The point I am making without knowing the exact time of GC’s 911call and the exact time GC arrived at the gate, we are in a knowledge vacuum.

Can anybody, maybe ps149 can help, please give the following times.

1) Official time of GC 911 call
2) Official time of BB 911 call
3) Time of GC’s arrival at gate to allow LE in.
4) Official Time of LE arrival at Oak Beach gate
When we have this information we can accurately calculate if MP had time to abduct SG, or not.


For those who believe MP could not be involved in SG'd death because he did not leave his home for months after. Most criminals do not leave ther homes after committing crimes. Some maintain the same residence for decades.

MOO

Irrelevant. GC lives almost next to the gate. So, we know, that GC can't have started before he saw SG and we know, when BB saw SG, he was already on the way (probably already there). SG needed in every case longer into BB's sight than GC to the gate. So, dead race here. And even if GC would have needed for a way, every normal person would walk in under a minute lets say ten minutes, he would be still there latest at about 5:25. That wouldn't give MP the six minutes and I have not even calculated in, you have still not given him time to find her in the first place and to avoid BB's sight. You calculate as if he can, protected by Laurin's cloak jump out of the racing car like Super-Pak (without BB seeing him or his vehicle), subdue her with one decisive strike from his century old secret Shaolin training, put her in the car (without any need to open doors) ... and even then, there is not enough time. As I said, dead race here!

 

[CriminalMinds]

One of GC's first account of events was that he didn't let her in, just called 911. I tend to think that was the true account because it would explain why she didn't stay at his house.

I always felt he NEVER let her IN past the door, if anything, more than one or two steps, leaving the door open with her standing in it(not that I would blame him, after all, it was like 5:15 am, and you never know the scenario unfolding such as robbery, home invasion, etc)--his account seemed to expand as the coverage did

 

[Tugela]

Nice work. So now we can be sure, since SG's 911 call ended at 5:14 that GC's call can't be BEFORE 5:14. BB called at 5:22. That makes a maximum of 8 minutes. Police arrived at 5:32, that makes 10 minutes from the BB's call. BB didn't see Pak or his SUV. So, even under the assumption, he knew her location, ander the assumption, he would be some trained knug-fu fighter, who could render her unconscious without leaving any trace of blunt force trauma on the bones, under the assumption, that BB just missed the SUV hunting the girl down (the girl she was so worried about, she called 911), 10 Minutes is a narrow time window in which MP would have to get her, subdue her, turn around and leave through the gate.
On the other hand, GC was after his call on the way to the gate. That wouldn't, even if he would be slow, take longer than 5 minutes. His call es somewhere between 5:14 and 5:22. So the latest time he would be at the gate would be around 5:27. That narrows the time window, MP would have had by another five minutes at least. And if GC's call was any minute earlier than 5:22, the time window closes even more. So, MP left definitively before 5:27. He may or may not has searched outside a bit longer. I see no way to pin that time down. But the time inside is pretty nicely determined and the time window is too narrow IMO.

As I said before, MP probably got out of Dodge within minutes of being informed by GC that the police had been called. Given the business they were in, I really doubt that he was going to hang around until they arrived.

 

[Peter Brendt]

As I said before, MP probably got out of Dodge within minutes of being informed by GC that the police had been called. Given the business they were in, I really doubt that he was going to hang around until they arrived.

Probably so. At least he didn'T hang around for long after that. BB didn't see him, which she probably would have done if he would have been still behind SG at 5:22.

 

[deedee21]

Windsor, GC said he was in the bathroom around 5am shaving when SG came to his door. She was screaming help me. He called 911. I dont know what time BB called. JR said the police arrived at 6:20. Dormer disputes that.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

@Vivalor,
Welcome pretty lady!
I suggest you keep a glass of water and some advil close to you and your keyboard at all times.
Xanax helps too, but it can be addictive. Especially here discussing THIS case.
Carry on fellow sleuther.

Replace the water with bourbon. And ask Justice Forever to keep your glass filled.

 

[Vivalor]

Replace the water with bourbon. And ask Justice Forever to keep your glass filled.

Pretty sure you all would banned me if I had a glass of bourbon handy. lol
But no drinks or advil for this pregnant lady....guess I will have to keep the tylenol handy. :giggle:

 

[Vivalor]

Windsor, GC said he was in the bathroom around 5am shaving when SG came to his door. She was screaming help me. He called 911. I dont know what time BB called. JR said the police arrived at 6:20. Dormer disputes that.

I'm thinking that GC timing was a little bit off. Because SG called 911 from JB house at 4:51 AM and that phone call lasted 23 min. Just would really like to know if she was still on the phone with 911 once she ran. If not then she didn't leave JB house until 5:14 AM.

 

[Vivalor]

I just had an ahh huh moment. Not sure why I never thought of this before seems so simple. Not sure maybe it was stated before (never did get done reading all the post on this thread) But where was JB for all of this and can he truly be accounted for? Did the LE stop by and talk to him at all? Did GC know what house SG was even running from? If not then who is to say he was not out on foot looking for her? Maybe could of caught her and brought her back to his house, later on having MP come back to get her?
I think I might be starting to change my idea that only MP was involved. But still on the fence about this whole thing in general.

 

[WINDSOR]

I love convoluted logic,

If BB did not see MP or his vehicle, that means he was not there on Anchor Way.
(When BB was on the phone with 911, could she see the street?)

However if nobody saw SG walking in the marsh, that means nothing.

Vivalor, I think the JB potential involvement with the abduction of SG has been dealth with previously. I believe the consensus was that he did not for a number of reasons.

Again I think we have to focus on this records of times.

1) Official time of GC 911 call
2) Official time of BB 911 call
3) Time of GC’s arrival at gate to allow LE in.
4) Official Time of LE arrival at Oak Beach gate


When we have this information we can accurately calculate if MP had time to abduct SG, or not.

If MP 'got out of Dodge' as soon as he heard from GC that GC called 911, why did MP get out of Dodge when he knew SG called 911 before? As well after SG and MP's stop at GC's house, If MP left Oak Beach asap, and SG was not being pursued by MP anymore, and she was walking down Anchor Way, why would she enter the marsh? (deranged on drugs?) But SG had been acting relatively lucidily before, calling 911, asking GC for help, staying on the roads.

MOO

 

[Peter Brendt]

I love convoluted logic,

If BB did not see MP or his vehicle, that means he was not there on Anchor Way.
(When BB was on the phone with 911, could she see the street?)

However if nobody saw SG walking in the marsh, that means nothing.

Vivalor, I think the JB potential involvement with the abduction of SG has been dealth with previously. I believe the consensus was that he did not for a number of reasons.

Again I think we have to focus on this records of times.

1) Official time of GC 911 call
2) Official time of BB 911 call
3) Time of GC’s arrival at gate to allow LE in.
4) Official Time of LE arrival at Oak Beach gate


When we have this information we can accurately calculate if MP had time to abduct SG, or not.

If MP 'got out of Dodge' as soon as he heard from GC that GC called 911, why did MP get out of Dodge when he knew SG called 911 before? As well after SG and MP's stop at GC's house, If MP left Oak Beach asap, and SG was not being pursued by MP anymore, and she was walking down Anchor Way, why would she enter the marsh? (deranged on drugs?) But SG had been acting relatively lucidily before, calling 911, asking GC for help, staying on the roads.

MOO

And that from the person, who said "be nice". Okay, so for the umpteenth time, since you obviously have a hard time to understand.

LE arrived according to LE at 5:32
BB called 911 at 5:22.

At the time, she saw SG, no SUV, no Pak in sight. That means, at this minute, Pak obviously wasn't right on SG's heels. He could have caught up a minute later, fine. But that would still give him only 9 minutes to leave OB before LE arrived. So, he needed, according to your own flawed calculations six to subdue her the Bruce Lee way and inclusive driving to the gate (always assuming, he had enough overview over the area to make it with high speed and no wrong turns). That means, he could have reached the gate only at 5:29.
We have no actual time for GC's 911 call. But we know, it has to be after 5:14 (the official end time of SG's 911 call) and 5:22 (BB's call) minus the time Pak stood there with him and talked. Talking, turning the car, find SG again had cost him easily those three minutes. And GC has a way that any normal person would walk in less than a minute. So, for the sake of your Super-Pak theory, lets say, GC needed double the time. Oh, let add little more ... lets say, GC called 5:18 (which is a very late assumption, giving, that the call SG made ended 5:14). Lets say, he needed 4 minutes ... wait, factor eight is not enough, GC would still be there too early. Lets say 5 minutes then, that is about factor 10 to normal walking speed. 5:23 ... still doesn't work. Lets try factor 20. GC is nor moonwalk dancing 20 steps forward for every 19 he makes backward ... ten minutes for a way, estimated by others here as about 30 seconds. That makes 5:28 then. Uhhh ... GC moonwalking 20/19 for/backward still doesn'T do it to keep up your theory. Not even when Mike "Bruce Lee" Super-Pak really could jump out of the car and subdued her with one strike, had no doors to open to put her in the car, even if his car, protected by King Laurin's cloak and the latest in UFO technology was invisible for everyone, including BB ... well, not even then, your theory works. And you speak of "convoluted logic"? Really?

 

[Peter Brendt]

I'm thinking that GC timing was a little bit off. Because SG called 911 from JB house at 4:51 AM and that phone call lasted 23 min. Just would really like to know if she was still on the phone with 911 once she ran. If not then she didn't leave JB house until 5:14 AM.

According to JR, who claims to have read the transcript, SG can be heard running at the end, so she left about to the end of the call JB's house. That would place her at 5:14 somewhere between JB's house and GC's house.

 

[Samantha Spade]

"And that from the person, who said "be nice"."

Peter, that was funny.

 

[Peter Brendt]

"And that from the person, who said "be nice"."

Peter, that was funny.

Oh ... and full of irony ... but then, I'm honest enough not to claim I'm a nice person. And I can be a stickler when someone tries to break the laws of nature (as in suspects moving with more than light speed for example).

 

[Samantha Spade]

I just had an ahh huh moment. Not sure why I never thought of this before seems so simple. Not sure maybe it was stated before (never did get done reading all the post on this thread) But where was JB for all of this and can he truly be accounted for? Did the LE stop by and talk to him at all? Did GC know what house SG was even running from? If not then who is to say he was not out on foot looking for her? Maybe could of caught her and brought her back to his house, later on having MP come back to get her?
I think I might be starting to change my idea that only MP was involved. But still on the fence about this whole thing in general.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Me too Vivalor.
I have been following this case since December 2010. For many reasons, but expecially because I knew someone who very much fit the profile for LISK. I mean down to a T. He was working in the area at the time and had means, motive, and opportunity. And when someone here mentioned Duck Hunter, both my husband and I gasped and literally felt faint. I passed the information on to one of the family members who I presumed did her thorough research and passed it on to LE. Of course, I am sure LE and the tips line is inundated with calls from concerned citizens as well as every kook and their crazy cousin. Anyway, that is how I became literally obsessed and hooked. And the more I had read about the case and the horrible inhumane comments expressed on the net about the victims and their families, I was determined to help advocate for them in a way that I could.

As for Shannan's case, I too can not rule out JB prowling around looking for her on foot while Pak searched for her with his SUV. Whether in tandem agreement or not. In the beginning of all this news coverage, I was searching several babylon area local blogs. And there were quite a few people who expressed that it was "rumor" that police they knew had mentioned JB was seen on foot searching for her. Yes, that is considered RUMOR. But think about it. Would he really want his neighborhood in on what SHE thought was going on in his home? Giving him the benefit of the doubt, just to find her to calm her down before she tells the community her story, no matter how "delusional" he says it is. I'm not thinking so. But that is just my very humble opinion based on no facts what so ever.

Anyway, let me beat The Foreignor to it.

This discussion on JB belongs in the JB thread. So those who think this theory is absurd don't have to read about it.

 

[WINDSOR]

And that from the person, who said "be nice". Okay, so for the umpteenth time, since you obviously have a hard time to understand.

LE arrived according to LE at 5:32
BB called 911 at 5:22.

At the time, she saw SG, no SUV, no Pak in sight. That means, at this minute, Pak obviously wasn't right on SG's heels. He could have caught up a minute later, fine. But that would still give him only 9 minutes to leave OB before LE arrived. So, he needed, according to your own flawed calculations six to subdue her the Bruce Lee way and inclusive driving to the gate (always assuming, he had enough overview over the area to make it with high speed and no wrong turns). That means, he could have reached the gate only at 5:29.
We have no actual time for GC's 911 call. But we know, it has to be after 5:14 (the official end time of SG's 911 call) and 5:22 (BB's call) minus the time Pak stood there with him and talked. Talking, turning the car, find SG again had cost him easily those three minutes. And GC has a way that any normal person would walk in less than a minute. So, for the sake of your Super-Pak theory, lets say, GC needed double the time. Oh, let add little more ... lets say, GC called 5:18 (which is a very late assumption, giving, that the call SG made ended 5:14). Lets say, he needed 4 minutes ... wait, factor eight is not enough, GC would still be there too early. Lets say 5 minutes then, that is about factor 10 to normal walking speed. 5:23 ... still doesn't work. Lets try factor 20. GC is nor moonwalk dancing 20 steps forward for every 19 he makes backward ... ten minutes for a way, estimated by others here as about 30 seconds. That makes 5:28 then. Uhhh ... GC moonwalking 20/19 for/backward still doesn'T do it to keep up your theory. Not even when Mike "Bruce Lee" Super-Pak really could jump out of the car and subdued her with one strike, had no doors to open to put her in the car, even if his car, protected by King Laurin's cloak and the latest in UFO technology was invisible for everyone, including BB ... well, not even then, your theory works. And you speak of "convoluted logic"? Really?

Peter, you are right, if LE arrived at the gate house and GC let them in at 5:32AM, no way could have MP abducted SG.


However in Newsday it was written .....Coletti said an officer from the
police marine unit arrived about 30 minutes after he called 911.

Assuming GC is telling the truth; for the police to arrive when you say they did GC's 911 call would have to taken place around 5:00am, but as you state that is not possible because GC had not met SG at that time.

Again we have no exact time of events. It is useless to argue what or what could not have taken place unless the times are exact.

If LE arrived at Oak Beach at 5:32am, no way could MP abduct SG.
If LE arrived at Oak beach at 6:07am, MP could have abducted SG

And we know because GC said he waited about a half an hour for LE, there is no way LE could have arrived at 5:32am.

So Peter are you saying that GC called 911 about 5:02 am, (before he met SG), went directly to the gate house, waited about a half an hour and let LE in at 5:32am? I do not think so.

Nice, and non-cynical, and I apologise if in the past I have not been.

WINDSOR

MOO

 

[Redbird]

The thanks button was not enough. Trying to figure out the time with the aid of the various statements (that don't match--some or lots of lying going on) requires our best sleuthing. Thank you for trying to keep us on track. This is very tedious and there is no room for crazy tirades and statements not backed by specific links. LE has claimed different times that it arrived. So I cannot rely on their statements. GC has given various versions of what happened. I can't quite picture him standing at the gate for 30 minutes or more. He is an old man and also a long time resident of OB. I would think he knew it would take LE some time to arrive and I wonder if he went back inside for a bit, perhaps to consult with his wife. Who knows. He states in one interview that LE did not interview him until 8 months later. So what does that mean? He must have spoken to them when he let them in. But this wasn't an interview? I am confused.

Link to GC interview saying LE talked to him 8 months later:
http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/04/14/new.york.serial.killing.witness/index.html

 

[Redbird]

Another question I have always had is where was SG's cell phone. GC describes what she was wearing and does not mention a purse. I think he was asked and said she did not have a purse (I will have to look this up) so did she have pockets in her jacket, pants? We know she had a cell phone. Why doesn't SG mention it?